Ssi scuba instructor cross over- is it a joke???

[x_yeti]

I think you guys should name these joke SSI instructors in Oz and list reasons for naming them. Then SSI can investigate.

 

[Kars]

I think there is still a general feeling out there that freediving is easier than the 'real' SCUBA diving. While every freediver with a sufficient SCUBA experience can tell you it's not, but quit the opposite.

I believe AIDA instructors are allowed to mold a custom course, with all the same requirements as formulated by the levels, to facilitate people like record holders to qualify quicker for the 3-4* level and Instructor level. Taking into account that the instructor and student should identify not only the skills possessed by the student, and bring up to level all the lacking skills. Top athletes can be very good in certain things, but at the same time have some surprising gaps in other arias, which often can be corrected quickly!

Correcting a bad swimming technique with a SCUBA instructor often takes much longer than 1 week stuffed with other even more vital training and techniques to learn, such as good equalisation (!).

Anyway I hope still someone from SSI want to explain the questions I have about SSI.
I need your input.

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

 

[tcrusson]

This debate fires left right and center :blackeye

Now, this may be off topic, and when I hear big names like "Herbert Nitsch" in the same post as "beginner freediving course", I think there may be a gap between how you view the market, and what the SSI course addresses.

When I started Freediving, I was not interested at all in depth, "rope diving" or competition Freediving. At the time I just wanted to be able to dive comfortably in 10 to 20 meters of water, not even to spearfish, but just to spend time with fish, and understand the safety aspects and techniques to improve my breathhold/dive time. I did the SSI level 1 course, and it got me hooked: a few weeks later I joined a trip to go dive with grey nurse sharks up the coast in Australia, etc.

I did the level 1, 2 and 3, and then the instructor course, so I can teach levels 1 and 2 (level 3 later after I certify X students and go back for a course). Scuba instructors crossing over can teach level 1 only (beginner course, equivalent to AIDA 2*)

I've been teaching SSI Freediving courses this year, and I can tell you that 99% of the people who join have no idea what deep Freediving is, nor do they even care about it. I see a mix of:
- spearfishermen who want to go further than 5-10m or just dive longer
- scuba divers who want to try something different as they've seen freedivers having fun in the same spots where they were blowing bubbles
- surfers who want something to do when the swell's flat
- and people who just want to try something new and exciting.
In most cases, even just mentioning great depths and very long statics just scares them and they are absolutely not interested in pursuing that part. None of the ones I talked to this year even knew who Herbert Nitsch was, they just saw a crazy video of "a guy swimming through the arch with his speedo on".

Now, I got hooked on the performance aspects of the sport and go training in Egypt (beginning of blatant self promotion) where I got past 90m depth last month (end of blatant self promotion ;-)), but if I count all the people I met who followed SSI courses, and then my students, I know only 2 who pursued that part. A couple others went as far as 40m deep in a trip to Dahab with me, but they are not interested in pushing further, nor doing competitions. However for going diving with sharks on the week ends, there is a LOT of interest.

Now to the point: the SSI course satisfies that segment of the market very well. And instructors for beginner courses do not need to be Freediving athletes. What people like at that stage, in my opinion, is someone with good teaching skills, who can show them the right techniques, take them diving on the week end or on trips away because he knows the right spots, organise training sessions, etc. And I know many scuba instructors, who are also keen spearfishermen or excellent skindivers, who fit that description.

Another aspect to take into consideration is safety. There are many deaths each year because people are not informed on the risks of samba/blackouts, or safety procedures. I think we need a LOT of instructors of the market who know how to teach that part so it becomes common knowledge. Come on, in public pools you still see people hyperventilating like crazy to go to the other side of the pool... BO/Sambas/rescue procedures/breathing techniques/etc. are part of the SSI level 1 course.

So allowing a scuba diving instructor who is already a freediver to get his certification faster to be able to teach the beginner level? why not. When their students want to go further, I can help teach the level 2/3, and why not provide private tutoring to the crazy ones who want to touch the ocean floor ;-) And for those who don't know, the only instructor certifiers at that stage are Linda and Lotta from Freedive Dahab, and Mike. knowing them, I would be very surprised if they were pushing crap on the market!

Now, I'm not sure how that will connect with Dean, who lives in Dahab so may see more of the depth addicts. I just think the market is a tad bigger than that.

 

[fcallagy]

I would have to agree on the above. I only started teaching this year as well and had about 20 students doing beginner courses. I have had one diver hit 30m who had previosly trained with a record holder. All the others were either spearos , surfers or just wanting to get in to the ocean safely and with someone that can teach them the basics of safety etc.
Some of the more experienced spearos wanted to push their pbs on the course as they rarely did line diving anyway so they saw it as an opportunity to try out. To be fair if Linda and Lotta are "in charge" its good enough for me.

 

[Walrus]

Tanguy,
what about the SSI Scuba instructors who did the cross over course who can't actually freedive and have no idea ?

I see the main reason the requirements for the crossover course are low so that as many instructors can do the course. The real money is in teaching these crossover courses. I see no reason why any scuba instructor wanting to do a crossover course and wants to fork over there cash is going to be turned down.

I agree that the competent instructors can probably teach beginners and scuba divers etc, but would have to disagree with spearfishermen. If a spearfishermen is only diving 5-10m then they are beginners or doing something really wrong. A lot of the students I get are spearsfishermen already comfortable diving 10-20m and want to dive deeper, or just longer & safer. I don't see a SSI crossover instructor being able to give much advice to someone that's been freediving(spearing) for 5 or more years so already quite experienced.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[shrek]

the scuba instructors that can't free dive just don't pass the course end of story

 

[tcrusson]

Hi Wal,

I can't really comment on scuba instructors who can't freedive but passed the course as I haven't met them, I don't know how they made it through the cracks but I guess in any system there are exceptions and these ones probably won't get students.

Now I sure hope paying your course fee is not enough to get your certification! Otherwise quality would be seriously compromised... Mind you, this is not different from trying to get your driving license or any kind of diploma: even if you paid your fee this is no guaranter you'll make it. The drills the guy need to do are described to them before they join the course, so if they feel they can't do it they shouldn't join.

I would be ready to bet revenue generation from instructors is marginal to SSI compared to student certifications on the long run... Economy of scale!

As for spearfishermen, if you are looking for specific coaching based on your performance, and you already dive to 20+, I'm sure you would shop around and maybe not join a beginner course, but join a combo beginner/advanced with an experienced instructor. The proof is in the pudding: apparently you get them as your students ;-)

 

[kelp princess]

The SSI SCUBA instructor to freediving instructor cross over is absolutely a ridiculous idea. I don't care what you say about an "instructor is and instructor"... That statement is absolutely ungrounded. I have been a ski instructor, where I learned teaching skills and taught at a high level, does that mean because I am also a spear fisher that is more than capable of diving that I can become an SSI freediving instructor in a week. Maybe in the pursuit of profits which is likely the reason for the first cross over, SSI should set a SKI instructor cross over aswell. CRAZY IDEA??? According to Mike and SSI its not!! The only similarity that SCUBA has to freediving is that it takes place in the water. That's it!!! SCUBA instructors for the most part know nothing about teaching freediving - spearfisher or not. The Zero to Hero approach popular in SCUBA diving just doesn't work in this case. The key result will be a degradation in training quality and a big lump of cash in SSI's pocket. Teaching Freediving requires first, experience freediving, then time and experience learning to teach freedivers. There is no substitute for this experience, which comes through completing a certifications scheme over time. "TIME= EXPERIENCE" for all those who don't know!!!!! In addition the sob story of the dive instructor that loves spearing but works as a SCUBA instructor. Give me a break !!! Anyone who was willing to put the time in to becoming a PROFESSIONAL FREEDIVING INSTRUCTOR could have put the time in like all of us and taken an AIDA instructor course after completing the certification scheme OVER A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME. (Not one week). I think you people need to give your head a check. The rest of the program can be more or less acceptable given that the whole SSI program is simply a reformulated version of the long standing AIDA program. Mike was here in Dahab, where he took his AIDA instructor course from freedive dahab a little over a year ago. This brings up another interesting point... how does one go from being a new instructor a little over a year ago to the main instructor trainer for SSI????? Amazingly fast progression. It takes quite a bit longer than that in most other organizations. Ask yourself some questions people before you all Jump on board with SSI.

hi deanspahic - i don't know you and i only just met Mike at DEMA where I had a chance to review the new teaching materials from SSI for both beginner students and for intermediate students. it would seem to me that your post is a bit inflammatory with respect to both SSI and Mike. Mike may have only taken the aida course a year ago - but he's been a freediver and a waterman for decades. perhaps he took the aida course to give him context for preparing his work with SSI.

i don't think SSI will ever replace the "high performance" courses you can get from Martin & Niki (FII) or Kirk & Mandy (PFI) or Umberto or William Trubridge or variety of others, as the list really does go on and on.

i've never taken an aida course so i don't know where it lives in the spectrum of "expertise" and/or in the range of classes available but it does seem to me that the SSI course is offering a training package for people who may never want to compete - that may simply want to be able to clear to get below 15ft and do some spearfishing at 50 ft - or just feel comfortable in the water. having said that, just because SSI offers a cross-over course for their instructors does not mean everyone will cross-over or will even qualify.

i know plenty of bad scuba instructors from all of the agencies but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater - you just have to get good references.

i think the objective for the instructor and in this case for the agency is where the difference lies. it would seem to me that SSI wants to expand the pie for the diving industry and since they have infrastructure (SSI facilities) all over the world why not leverage that and try to build capacity for the newest discipline.

i applaud any effort that wants to create safer divers (at all levels) and brings more people to our sport. and i think it is only fair to see what the effort will yield before people start attacking it or making sweeping statements without first-hand context.

best of luck to all.

kp

 

[chrismar]

Now I sure hope paying your course fee is not enough to get your certification! Otherwise quality would be seriously compromised... Mind you, this is not different from trying to get your driving license or any kind of diploma: even if you paid your fee this is no guaranter you'll make it. The drills the guy need to do are described to them before they join the course, so if they feel they can't do it they shouldn't join.

Hey Tanguy,

I'd like to think that is true, but my sole personal experience with SSI training didn't inspire confidence. I did an open water course with them before I took up freediving and was dismayed at the standard. Not the standard prescribed, which seemed appropriate to me, but how it was applied.

Some examples:
The fitness and water safety component was something reasonable like 200m non-stop swimming in some generous timeframe and treading water for 12 minutes or so. Only two of us passed properly out of 10. Luckily, the other was my buddy for the course.
One student sucked his tank completely dry in 15 minutes and shot straight to the surface from 10m.
Only half the class could successfully recover regs and clear masks underwater. The rest had to be assisted by the instructor or just surfaced.
In the final exam, the instructor provided answers to those that asked for them.

All passed. I sincerely hope that the application of standards is more robust for instructors, but there is always this feeling, as pointed out earlier, that if you've paid your money you get your qual. Some instructors are obviously better about it than others, but my personal experience wasn't particularly positive.

Note that this isn't an attempt to undermine the SSI instructors, nor any individuals. I'm just trying to point out that there is a bit of expectation on the part of students once they pay their money. I sincerely hope that isn't happening, but unfortunately I suspect that it will.

 

[Walrus]

I totally agree with what Chris is saying and have experienced it myself and heard of similar stories everywhere. The problem is priorities, at the end of the day teaching scuba (or freediving) is a business first, making money is the first priority. Before I get jumped on by scuba & freediving instructors everywhere :blackeye I have quite a few friends that are SSI scuba instructors and are quite serious about teaching and certifying to a high standard.
Hopefully on the whole most try to balance between making a buck and keeping reasonable standards in teaching/safety and certification. Having said that I have met many instructors(and dive shop owners) that don’t give a toss apart from making a buck, don't mind screwing people over and spinning total BS when they talk to anyone. This is probably the case in any business really so nothing special about teaching scuba or freediving.


Cheers,
Wal

 

[x_yeti]

I believe that the real reason for this thread is in fact the issue of money. Both AIDA and the independent freediving instructors are worried that SSI is going to take business away from them. This is probably not going to be the case with instructors who are targeting the intermediate to advanced market as their students will most likely seek out instructors who are highly respected in the freediving community. As for those targeting the beginner market they should be worried as this is who SSI are targeting.

It would seem to me that the anti-SSI crowd are trying to counter this threat to their pocket by rallying behind the supposed decrease in quality of instruction debate. I find this quite amusing since neither AIDA nor the independents have any quality controls in place. Their standard of instruction is solely dependent on the morals and capabilities of the individual instructors. Therefore you could get an awesome AIDA instructor or you could get a useless AIDA instructor who just passes students in order to get more money out of them on the next course. The same goes for the independents.

As for the quality of SSI's freediving instructors I believe that at the moment it should actually be higher than that of AIDA as all of the instructors out there have gone through either Mike, Linda or Lotta. As long as these people are the only instructor trainers at SSI the quality should remain high. If anyone knows of an SSI freediving instructor (NOT SCUBA!) that is delivering sub-standard freediving courses then please name them so that we can move this debate from opinons and speculations to actual hard facts.

 

[chrismar]

For the record, I have no skin in this game. I do basic intros at the club I help run, but I do it for no charge. If a bunch of high-quality beginner instructors from SSI arrive in my home town, I will welcome them with open arms and promptly farm off all the intro sessions I do to them. I can't talk for others, but to the best of my knowledge, Wal has the same day job as me and most certainly gets very little of his income from freediving instruction.

 

[deanspahic]

John, if you really think that I started this thread because of money and because I'm worried about losing market share then you need to think again. I teach freediving because I love the sport and enjoy sharing it with people. I left home where I had a very nice job and a lot more money than I’ll ever make doing this. Also because I, along with the other AIDA instructors here in Dahab, offer high quality training, our customers are always coming back. None of us has, nor will we pass students that don’t make the requirements. I gave a completion form to one of my wife's friends because he didn’t make it. That’s how we operated and if there are any AIDA instructors that we become aware of not teaching to standards we help to resolve that. In addition, when talking of quality, AIDA vs SSI, I think that you should keep in mind that Lotta and Linda trained a lot of AIDA instructors and were also involved in the AIDA EC for a number of years. They helped to shape it into a solid organization, and since their departure even more capable people have taken up the flag and continue to improve training quality and quality control measures. I would highly doubt that this new program, lacking the years of experience AIDA has, would produce superior instructors. AIDA is the world standard for quality training, training people from the beginner level to advanced levels. It has the experience and knowledge that people have been relying on for years.

Back to the point, the reason that I started this thread has to do with quality training standards. By lowering the requirements and by requiring no other prerequisites other than being an existing SSI scuba instructor prior to undertaking an instructor crossover program you effectively remove the filters that keep lower quality instructors out of the instructor pool. If the instructor candidate is on the line, and might not make it if say they had to dive to 30 (apnea academy) or 40m (AIDA), or do a longer static, then how can you not pass them. There is a need for higher objective measures to prevent these guys from getting through. You can’t simply say I don’t think you are good enough if they meet all the minimum requirements. This is the problem. Let’s be honest here... this is a seed program. I understand that, and if SSI kept the same standards for the crossover instructors as for the regular instructors then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You say that this is about money... and it is on their part. 800 Euros per crossover student adds up to a lot of money at the end of the day. The other aspect is control. As an independent or an AIDA instructor I am free to start my own business, or make whatever partnership agreements that I feel appropriate. SSI, not so much. Ask FDD to run an AIDA instructor courses here in Dahab and I’m sure that they won’t be too keen... why? Because the instructors stay around and start teaching, eating into their market. They cant control them or where they choose to teach. SSI programs remove this threat. With SSI you are confined to a dive center and every bit of work that you do contributes to the center and SSI as a whole. Limited independence for instructors and maximum profit control for centers. Given this who do you think is more money motivated?

I don’t want people to misunderstand what I’m trying to do here. As I said before the SSI freediving program as a whole is good to go. The problem comes in with this scuba crossover program and the lower requirements. I hope that SSI does well with their main program, as I believe that more competition in the industry is a good thing and the more people out their promoting freediving the better. I am not interested in discrediting SSI as an organization, nor mike as a person, as he is indeed someone with knowledge and experienced in this area. I simply would like for the people involved in this program to reevaluate the standards that they are using for the SSI scuba instructor crossover before it gets too far down the line.

 

[Walrus]

x_yeti, I agree it is all about the money. I know certain SSI intructors travelling around the globe I'm sure making a darn good income with the crossover courses.

Chris is right I work a normal 9 to 5 job. I have actually taught several freediving courses around Australia for free trying to get the sport going. My own personal opinion is that the SSI thing is much more about the money then any independant or AIDA instructors that I know. There are 3 AIDA instructors that I know in Australia, two of them have spent many 100's if not 1000's of hours volunteering to get freediving as a sport happening in Australia and New Zealand. Yes they are making some money from the courses they teach now but it's absolute peanuts compared to the hours they have put in for free.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[x_yeti]

You guys are right SSI is (hopefully) going to be making a lot of money out of their freediving courses. I'm hoping that they make tons of money so that they are motivated to reinvest that money into the sport and grow it. Big comps, sponsorships and media exposure will grow this sport far more than a couple of people doing volunteer work. Then we will really start seeing how deep freedivers can go!

Making money isn't a problem, but delivering poor quality freediving courses is a nasty problem so let's get the names of these dodgy SSI freediving instructors out there so that consumers can be warned.

Dean, I've never trained with you, but I'm willing to bet that you are a decent instructor purely because I know you've been through Linda and Lotta... the same people the SSI instructors are going to have to go through.

 

[shrek]

I am an ssi instructor and as far as volunteer work goes i've just spent i don't know how many hours setting up structured pool training sessions and creating a training program so that local divers can push them selves harder in a safe inviroment .
this ment having to prove to the pool management that we were organised so producing
a proffesinal ticket to prove training standards was essential
we now have a pool booked in nelson on a wednesday evening for 2 hrs with no public
just for free diving .
iv'e done this to promote the sport locally and are doing it for free!!
its easy to sit back in a country with a long history of free diving and make comments about various organisations but here at least there is no one else so im starting from scratch and ssi has been a big part in getting some formalsed training together

 

[Mullins]

Once you've got things up and running, next step is to organise some comps! You'd just need to get in touch with AIDA NZ and ask to borrow a couple of their judges. Would probably get some good freedivers attending too.

 

[shrek]

thanks dave i'll be in touch i,ve only got limited time for the next couple of months
so is's just going to be in the pool for now

 

[tcrusson]

I'm also a SSI instructor, and also do "volunteer work", AIDA guys don't have the monopoly: training sessions twice a week in the pool, week end boat dives with coaching, etc. I have a full time job, and teach courses on the week end.

Now, I wouldn't mind being able to make a few bucks, why not even going as far as making a living with Freediving at some point (like you can do with scuba), so I'm not really against the concept of Freediving as a professional sport.

Plus, dive centers can help develop the sport. For example what is really nice in Dahab - I went there twice - is that with Freedive Dahab I can just land there, and everything is organised: transfer from the airport, accommodation, I can buy a new monofin/noseclip/mask (that's how I became the proud owner of a "Vodka Mask"), get a ride to the blue hole, have someone set up the buoy/line to the depth I want, have a safety diver, who also hands me an oxygen bottle on a separate float when the dive is finished, all ready to go at 10m...... And then debrief after the dive with recommendations on what to try next time. Honestly all I have to do is dive ;-) If only it could be that simple everywhere! Just imagine: you take a plane ticket and you can go freedive in a ready-to-go center. Sure, you have to pay for it, but it depends on how you value your time. If you have 2 weeks holiday, do you want to spend 3 days organising a float/rope/boat/etc.?

Even to teach courses in Australia, a dive shop handles the logistic: finding the students, managing the gear, classroom, booking the pool, etc. All I have to do is show up and teach the course, and get paid for it.

And on the long run, maybe we won't have to order noseclip/monofin/mask/bifins/fluid goggles from 5 different countries, as SSI centers have to have a dive shop that distributes gear....

 

[trullalla]

thanks tanguy, that makes us sound very professional! good that you didn't say anything about the vodka nights and the shisha sessions

josef, in every other field, if you want to become a professional you need to get an education which will cost money. i so don't get why everybody seem to expect that only freediver trainers/instructors should work for free...oh, right, it's because of the love of the ocean, isn't it?

dean, you raise many subjects that i'd like to respond to, but i'm not having the time now. but, about what you have said about fdd not teaching aida IC at the moment, the reasons for this are 2:
you must have noticed that aida at the moment need to sort out organizational problems that i have no intention to make public in here, since i am an aida trainer and as such i have no intention to speak bad about an organization that i represent. until things are sorted, we are not going to produce more instructors because problems would become even bigger and responses to them even slower.

the other reason is what you have mentioned in a bit of a narrow minded description: fdd has grown during the last few years, we have a shop and a center, we pay tax, we have costs that need to be covered every month. the egyptian system at the moment is such that anybody without a business and a work permit is allowed to sit on the beach and teach low costs courses because of the complete lack of expenses that you freelance instructors have, which give you the chance to ditch the course prices to half if you want to.
obviously we cannot do that, and until the system start working and the rules about freelancing get enforced we are not going to contribute to the growth of the number of freelancers populating the lighthouse beach.

one more thing that maybe you never have considered: if there were 30 freelance instructors hanging out there instead than 5 or so, you would all end up struggling so much more in order to stay alive and get enough courses to make a living. so maybe you should be happy about the situation as it is now...

as for the low standards you are so concerned about, i could write a book about the appalling low standards of other instructor trainers and instructor courses.
as for AA don't forget that you can become aa instructor without having done a freediving course ever. so anybody who is mad enough to push themselves down to 30 and make it back alive is guaranteed to become an instructor is 6 days. does that make you feel more confident about high standards, considering that these people have no teaching skills whatsoever, they are 30 to 60 of them in a course and are not evaluated in their in water/pool/ classroom teaching skills?

cheers,
linda