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Static Challenge

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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glennv

glennv

hybrid lifeform
Nov 28, 2002
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Pim,

Super !! Looks like you are definately getting back in shape. Thus this mean you will also compete in Belgium ??
(i hope so)

See you then and good luck with your training.

Send me you Cardiogram please. Am very interested

__________________________
Greetzzz,

GlennV
www.glenn-venghaus.nl
 
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glennv

glennv

hybrid lifeform
Nov 28, 2002
437
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Managed to extract the data from my Nellcor 595 Pulse Oximeter of the 7 min dry static:
7minStatic_O2_BPM.jpg


As other people experimenting with O2 measurements have already seen, the O2 starts only dropping far into the static. Also after the breathing starts again , O2 keeps dropping for a while, showing the importants of how you end your static if you are at the limit. Gets back to 100% in a couple of seconds.

Interesting though is that sebastians test http://www.webvideo.nu/freediving/features/breathhold.html showed his samba level was around 40%. My lowest in this attempt was 53% (still felt good) . From his 53 to his lowest was about 1'15'', so if i add that to my 7 minutes i beat the world record ;-)
Of course this is speculation beyond any reasonable limits but still fun :D


Greetzzz,

GlennV
www.glenn-venghaus.nl

p.s. Pim , still waiting for your bpm curve.....
 
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DeepThought

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
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Hi glenn.
This graph is very interesting, thank you.
Your bradicardia response is quite impressive, especially considering it was a DRY static!! the profile of the graph seems relatively like what I'de like to achieve, though I don't start my statics at 85+bpm (more like 65-70 I guess). It would've been also interesting to see some time on this graph from before the static started. For some reason your O2 rises after you stop your breath?:confused:

I'de be happy if you could share with us your breathing preperations - hyperventilating? any kind of meditation?, time of day, what did you eat in the few hours before the attmp or any other relevant information...

Regarding blood o2, as Eric mentioned numorous times, I guess that different oximeters get different reading, also regardings where you connect them and how strong is your vasoconstriction... But I can see your will to joke around with the numbers. :)
 
glennv

glennv

hybrid lifeform
Nov 28, 2002
437
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Michael,

Actualy the apnea started a bit after the 0:00 on the graph , so a very small part of the breathup e.g. final breath was still on there. Also i was wiggeling a bit with the finger sensor so that reading is misleading. It was a solid 100% in the last minutes before the apnea start.
Next time indeed i will capture more from the "before" phase. Have just figured out how to transfer the data to the computer from the device.

My preparation is always roughly the same and based on a combination of tips/techniques i found here on the forum and figured out by focussing on how i feel in different stages of the prep and apnea.
I never do tables (i hate them) and only max attempts.

To start i make sure i lay as comfortable as possible on a matrass for at least 10 minutes , not thinking about breathing , but just let it return to a natural ritme, focussing on relaxing my whole body. Always try to get the feeling that i am sinking down the earth at every exhale (or water during wet statics). This is a very important feeling i try to keep during the whole training at every exhale. Sink , sink , sink..
Then i just stop after an inhale and do a first comfortable static without timekeeping untill it stops feeling 100% nice.
Then i relax again for ( i don't measure the rests) i think 2-3 minutes slowly increasing the depth of my breathing without increasing the rythm too, much ending with 3 deep breaths and a static , which i always do untill 3:30 , whatever happens.
With this i determine how i felt at 3:30 and know where i am at in my preparation. If it feels good i continue , if not i go and do something else that day ;-)

If i decide to continue i relax for 2 minutes or so and then start breathing very deep , but still without increasing the ritme or force needed , so my hartrate stays below ~60bpm. I do this until my fingers tingle just a little bit and i know i am at the hyperventilation border. (as a refference marker) Then i back off from this by a 30-45 seconds of almost no breathing (or veeerrrrrry slow) , take a deep breath and start the static. This one should go to at least 5:00.

After this i go for the max, using the same breathup as for the 5:00 min attempt just preceded by a longer rest period with natural breathing.
For my max at the last breath i do a little packing , which pushes my HR up a bit , but this drops straight back when the static starts.

Into the static i go thru 3 phases , with different approaches.
Till ~4 minutes to 4:30 the relax phase where i am into lala land with an absolute empty mind. This works best for me. Not even focusing on one thing , but a pure blank. (lots of Yoga helps to learn this)
Then i get a bit uncomfortable feeling in my stomach/diaphrame area (i have no contractions as most people) , which wakes me up. I then focus on ignoring that i have a body below my skull, which becomes harder and harder, untill at 5-5:30 i switch to full 100% allert mode e.g phase 3.
Here i use my stopwatch / bpm monitor as a distraction to keep ignoring i have something below my head, which is getting very difficult to believe at that point since the feeling is extremely uncomfortable and i have to keep relaxing all my muscles in that area. I regularly switch between looking at the watch and playing a game with my fingers to stay alert and focused on any changes in how i feel / act.
I then come up when it either becomes unbearable or i am into new teritory too far but still feel good.

Have never had a BO or SAMBA yet (ignoring a very mild and debateble samba at a last years competition due to heavy distractions from a broken and infected eardrum).
Will keep recording every attempt and will see when the lights go out and at which point.

Food wise i eat nothing for 8 hours before a training/comp. And before that no special diet , just as much as possible ;-)
After this kind of training i do take some extra antioxidants to help the body recover a bit faster if i train a lot of times a week e.g. before a comp (every other day till daily depending on my form)

Competition wise i am still learning a lot , since my biggest problem is keeping my heartrate down before i start. Nerves play havock on me all the time but getting better.....

__________________________

Greetzzz,

Glennv
www.glenn-venghaus.nl
 
DeepThought

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
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Originally posted by glennv
I never do tables (i hate them) and only max attempts.
I know of 2 more tables than just the pellizari o2 and co2 tables, maybe you should try some day, they are shorter thus not so boring and take less time. :)

To start i make sure i lay as comfortable as possible on a matrass for at least 10 minutes
That's good thinking, I'm not sure I've consciensly tried that.

Then i just stop after an inhale and do a first comfortable static without timekeeping untill it stops feeling 100% nice.
Then i relax again for ( i don't measure the rests)
Hmm, I'm also not that fund of messing with time too much. A cordless keyboard and mouse by logitech has droped into my possession latley, I think that'll help in putting less effort and attention on time recording. :)
The thing is, that if you don't know the rough time of your warm-up, how can you duplicate it in competition?

With this i determine how i felt at 3:30 and know where i am at in my preparation. If it feels good i continue , if not i go and do something else that day ;-)
rofl That's a good spirit for taking things!!
again, might not work so well in competition...
-I'm mentioning competitions because you wrote about them being a weak spot.

If i decide to continue i relax for 2 minutes or so and then start breathing very deep , but still without increasing the ritme or force needed , so my hartrate stays below ~60bpm. I do this until my fingers tingle just a little bit and i know i am at the hyperventilation border.
I'm not sure that this is the real border actually, they may be many disputes about it.

(as a refference marker) Then i back off from this by a 30-45 seconds of almost no breathing (or veeerrrrrry slow)
Gaining back Co2 but maybe losing some O2 on the way? -Nothing that the moniter would show, but I think Eric said that hyperventlation can raise Venuos o2 from 60% to 80%, or something like that.

For my max at the last breath i do a little packing , which pushes my HR up a bit , but this drops straight back when the static starts.
:duh should've figured why HR was so high. (I don't pack for now)

Into the static i go thru 3 phases , with different approaches.
Till ~4 minutes to 4:30 the relax phase where i am into lala land with an absolute empty mind. This works best for me. Not even focusing on one thing , but a pure blank. (lots of Yoga helps to learn this)
I try to do the same, but I don't blank completly. just alternating b/w guided relaxation, random thoughts and blanking.

Then i get a bit uncomfortable feeling in my stomach/diaphrame area (i have no contractions as most people) , which wakes me up. I then focus on ignoring that i have a body below my skull, which becomes harder and harder, untill at 5-5:30 i switch to full 100% allert mode e.g phase 3.
This was also raised by Tyler (I think), regarding to mentaly deny contractions.. I should try that...

Here i use my stopwatch / bpm monitor as a distraction to keep ignoring i have something below my head, which is getting very difficult to believe at that point since the feeling is extremely uncomfortable and i have to keep relaxing all my muscles in that area. I regularly switch between looking at the watch and playing a game with my fingers to stay alert and focused on any changes in how i feel / act..
I still try to do nothing physical when I hit rough water. Otherwise I just feel I'm making myself even more anxious.

Have never had a BO or SAMBA yet (ignoring a very mild and debateble samba at a last years competition due to heavy distractions from a broken and infected eardrum).

Good. :) Same (for first part).

Will keep recording every attempt and will see when the lights go out and at which point..
keep us updated.

Food wise i eat nothing for 8 hours before a training/comp. And before that no special diet , just as much as possible ;-).
I also like to keep atleast 6 hours if not more than last meal. This is why I prefer doing statics in the morning (after rehydrating).

After this kind of training i do take some extra antioxidants to help the body recover a bit faster .
I heard many people taking those, in what form? do they come in pills? or do you eat food that's rich in them?

10x alot for the elaborate response. It give me more fun stuff to work with next week when I will start training again. (finally!)
 
glennv

glennv

hybrid lifeform
Nov 28, 2002
437
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Michael,

One thing to remember. Do not try and change too many things at the same time. Take one element and modify slightly and see how it affects your over time. Then go for the next element.

Indeed this hyperventilation border stuff is all not sure. Does not realy matter actualy , as long i make some sort off refference point for myself, which i can repeat. I figured out how far from that point i have to be , without beeing totaly hypered with serious fading etc at the beginning of the atttempt.

The reason why i do not work with timing my interfalls is ( and this is harder to describe in words ) that i make the interfalls as long as needed to reach a certain feeling i have memorised. On some days it takes longer on some faster to get there. Indeed this makes it more complex to time for competitions, but the total timing is generaly not more off that a couple of minutes , which i then use to relax a bit longer for the final hold.
It's just that any little competition related thought or the annoucer calling other peoples times, or my girlfriend fighting her heavy contractions at her attemp (which is generaly before my official top) is enough to kick my HR from 60 to 130 in a second :duh :waterwork . once i am under it is ok but then i have already burned to much O2 in the beginning.
I just have to do more of them ,thats all i think. They are getting better and better and my time is creeping up.

With regards to your contractions, i wonder if denying them is the best thing for you. Difficult for me to judge , when i have something completely different, but what i hear mostly is that people tend to "ride" them. Let them come and don't fight but use them. My girlfriend for instance has one of the heaviest contractions i have seen , but she actualy likes them. She has problems in the first minutes , until they come. Then she sits back and enjoys the ride. (wierd girl :confused: :duh ).
So i would say get some advice from people who have lots of contractions and how they handle that part. There is already lots written on this board about that subject.

For Antioxidants you can get in pills from any pharmacy or drugstore.

Good luck with your experimenting and keep us posted.
Don;t forget to breath at the end :p

__________________________________

Greetzzz,

GlennV
www.glenn-venghaus.nl
 
DeepThought

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
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No worries about changing too many things at once, I have'nt done statics in the last 18 months :D and even then I didn't do them for a long period. I'm starting all over again. Though I checked a few weeks ago, and it didn't take me that much to get to just to 4 mins, though it didn't feel as comfertable as I remmeber. Anyway, I think I'll get back to my old PB in a week or 3, since that's what it took me before to get it.

That being ready feeling makes sense for me, this is how I worked when I just began.

About nervous at competitions, maybe using earplugs, and not watching your g/f (if possible) might help. :)

By denying contractions, I meant try mentally to make them disapear. I also ride contractions, especially when wet.

I'll probably brag when/if I'll break my pb, no worries. :D
Cheers.
 
P

Prästen

toalettdykare
Feb 20, 2005
21
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I am just upping this thread and recommend people to start write in it again, it contains to much useful info to be forgotten and buried.

Now i´m off to the pool to do some training

Peace out
 
derelictp

derelictp

Freediver
Oct 16, 2001
397
63
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I thought you where going to the toalett to dive ;-)

Kul att se en dalmas på forumet....
 
J

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
1,289
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What was this about again? Pbs and training methods?

Lately I've been training the following way.

Warmup:
FRC Static 3:30-4:30, depending on the day
4 minute countdown
Then I do my long static

I never go past 7 minutes, no matter how good I feel. The idea is that I will condition my self to think that 7 minutes is easy and consistent, and then, hopefully, in a competition I can hit that and still have some "hunger" left to continue. I also never let my self perform under 6:35, the previous competition pb.

Well, let's see how long I can keep this sillyness up, it's awful tempting to try longer...
 
P

Prästen

toalettdykare
Feb 20, 2005
21
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At the pool training yesterday (toan?) (the first real training since april) i brought a friend hos wants to start training freediving seriously again (he´s been out for some years) and we splashed around in general and doing some dynamic training. Anyway, before we left, we did some static. i did 2,50 as best, not a really serious hold (i still had maybe 30 secs left) and he decided to try to beat it. He made 3,03 mins. After he broke the surface, he draw 1-2 (gasping) breaths and then collapsed into the water and seemed to almost getting the Samba. I lifted him up until he had recovered.

My question is, what was this??? can you get Samba after you´ve already starting to breath again? I´ve heard that when doing no limits and such, you can blackout like 5 secs after breaking the surface because the oxygen don´t reach the brain in time.

I am a bit of a amateur and really want to know what this is.
 
J

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
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Sure you can! Most sambas happen like that...

When you start breathing, the oxygen does not immediately reach your brain. There is a time after surfacing and starting to breathe that the o2 in the blood reaching your brain is still actually dropping.

That's why if you already samba in water, it's very likely you will bo or at least have a very bad samba after getting up...So you have to come up before samba.
 
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N

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
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It was a samba, you can get samba after you've started to breath again. It is because the oxygen doesn't reach the brain immediately, so there is a possibility of samba/blackout for a few seconds after surfacing.

Edit: Simo posted at the same time as me! I agree though.
 
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DeepThought

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
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Also, if your friend had a samba from a 3 minutes static, I suggest that he should ventilate less as it doesn't sound like a normal person's hypoxic limit - I'm speculating that he hyperventilated too much.
Or maybe he had hard time relaxing...? bad physical condition? low blood pressure?

Anyway, that sounds abnormal to me. Maybe just me though.
 
H

Haydn

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2004
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I imagine your friend had not warmed up properly for a max static effort but that you both just thought to go for it and tried a max on the first hold and whilst already tired from messing around first. In any case your friend would probably have died that day (if he had tried it alone). Next time you train together, ensure you literally hold his hand throughout, you will feel his samba trembling through his hand and you must bring him up then. He might have a mild twitch on the surface due to the time lag of the O2 but otherwise your friend might stay down maybe 10 seconds more to force a longer hold and have a serious black out (your fault not his) colapsing back into the water or dropping the head is really serious samba. This shows a lack of experience on both your parts and thats ok because you will have gained a lot of experience from the incident and the learning curve is steep. Remember we can gain experience through mistakes as well as from the good times. Keep learning but always make it safe. If I was buddy for a person prepared to get that close to black out and who refuses to surface when ordered, I would refuse to buddy him again. Nobody blacks out on my watch, its my responsibility as a buddy to ensure my companion is safe and that means its the buddy who decides how long the static will last, not the diver.
 
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P

Prästen

toalettdykare
Feb 20, 2005
21
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He has a quite weak body but he is training and not so bad condition, It was the third or fourth hold. I think that his major flaw is that after 85-90% of th hold, he must move a bit to kee p himself calm he says. He can hold longer if he swims a few meters atr the end of the hold. He have´nt done any longer holds until this so it is usually no real danger, he stops well before his real limit. But now that he really pressed himself, he started to move about a bit after 2,30. I guess it was therefor it went so fast in the end.

I (we) know this is dangerous and he has tried to hold without moving around but he gets very distracted, he says.

Excuse my bad english today, i´m quite off

And no ,we never train alone, i was beside him all the time. The reason i was so confused is that i did´nt really expect a Samba after just 3 mins, or that he would bea ble to push himself so far. But i guess it is down to the fact that he swam atleast 15 meters just to make himself not think about his urge for air.


Thanks for all the answers = )
 
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naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
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Moving around during a static can cause problems. Maybe it's better to learn to keep still while resisting the urge to breathe, or simply not to push so far. It worries me to see my buddy moving around a lot at the end of a static, because it means he/she is getting near the limit, and I have to follow close behind, in case there is a problem. It also uses up O2 at the time when it is lowest.

Well done for spotting the problem quickly, and for never training alone.

Lucia
 
P

Prästen

toalettdykare
Feb 20, 2005
21
3
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thanks for all the fast answers.

Well, i have benn training freediving since i was seven (i´m 17 now) and i´m a 2star CMAS instructor ,but i have only trained advanced freediving(apnea) for the last year. So i know a bit about freediving but i have just begun to train serious myself so...'

Peace
 
K

kike

New Member
Oct 15, 2005
16
0
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Hi to you all.
I have one question for the static. In Umberto Pelizzari's book says that you can do your maximum static atempt only every couple of months. Is that true? Please help me becouse my static is 3:25. And of course i want better.
 
A

Absolute

Freediver
Aug 7, 2005
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I think the reason some people find it more comfortable to move around when at the end of a static is because of the partial pressure in the muscle tissues.

The tissues want o2 so in order to get the hemoglobin to relase more o2 the partial pressure is changed in the tissue by using energy (moving around).

I don't know of a way to counteract it. Mabey wiggling the toes and fingers my help, or being more focused on the body and relaxing it.

Just a thought,
J
 
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