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Stop shivering and get cold! (especially for Naiad)
- Thread startertrux
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
i have an extra bottle of MTC oil (medium chain triglyceride).
anyone in the vancouver area who wants it send me a pm. i recieved two bottles about a month ago but realize now that one is plenty. i will happily sell it to you for what i paid, thus you save shipping costs from the states (it is unopened and sealed of course).
Bodybuilding.com - SciFit Pure MCT Oil - 100% Pure! On sale now!
Bodybuilding.com - MCT Information and Product Listing! MCT FAQ!
this stuff makes a great pre-dive energy source on its own, whether combined with the rest of the thermogenic supplement protocol or not. i find it easy to ingest, compared to flax oil anyway, because it has almost taste.
cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada
anyone in the vancouver area who wants it send me a pm. i recieved two bottles about a month ago but realize now that one is plenty. i will happily sell it to you for what i paid, thus you save shipping costs from the states (it is unopened and sealed of course).
Bodybuilding.com - SciFit Pure MCT Oil - 100% Pure! On sale now!
Bodybuilding.com - MCT Information and Product Listing! MCT FAQ!
this stuff makes a great pre-dive energy source on its own, whether combined with the rest of the thermogenic supplement protocol or not. i find it easy to ingest, compared to flax oil anyway, because it has almost taste.
cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada
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PHP:
Seriously that is one of the cutest things i've seen. What is it trying to do? And where are the Farnes Steve?From your house head oooop North, get to the wall Hadrian built to keep out the scots, do a right towards the East coast and stop just before your feet get wet.
The place is near Seahouses, its the Farne islands. Most dives are about 15-20m but there is a wreck called the Somali at 30m which is excellent, as good as anything i've done when the conditions are good. Trip next year? I'll have a chat on Sunday, see ya. (we can talk about the birds and bees too ;-) )
eric,
a possible typo and a question...
- i think your were refering to L-Carnitine Tartrate
- what is your source of glycerol (aka - glycerine)?
i have only found it sold in bottles by the fluid ounce. i estimated 40g to be equivalent to approx 1.1 fluid ounces of glycerine (from the stated shipping weight of a bottle). is this your experience as well?
Bodybuilding.com - NOW Vegetable Glycerine - 100% Pure! On sale now!
Beyond A Century Performance Nutritional Products
the intended use is generally topical but these mention safe for ingestion as well
Vegetable Glycerin, 16 fl oz, 473 ml
thanks for the help,
sean
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I've been in the water every second day now for about two weeks and I'm noticing something that I've felt before, the great inability to sweat. Well, strictly speaking, I can still sweat, but when I am about to, I get huge prickling and itchy feelings all over my body. I thought at first it was salt in my pores but I don't think that's likely.
I dive on the weekends generally and then go for 4km swims in the ocean during the week, exploring and fine tuning my swimming. I think the ocean's probably at around 8C, now. Might be a little cooler since we've frosts at night for the last few days. I wear 3mm top (very collapsed, though) and 5mm bottoms.
Anyone else experience this?
I also find my tolerance for cold is rapidly increasing. I'm not eating or taking anything special aside from lots of hemp oil and flax meal that I eat regularly.
I went diving on the weekend and it seemed as though my cold tolerance was far beyond anyone I was diving with. Mind you, I've had many more years to acclimatize.
Pete
I dive on the weekends generally and then go for 4km swims in the ocean during the week, exploring and fine tuning my swimming. I think the ocean's probably at around 8C, now. Might be a little cooler since we've frosts at night for the last few days. I wear 3mm top (very collapsed, though) and 5mm bottoms.
Anyone else experience this?
I also find my tolerance for cold is rapidly increasing. I'm not eating or taking anything special aside from lots of hemp oil and flax meal that I eat regularly.
I went diving on the weekend and it seemed as though my cold tolerance was far beyond anyone I was diving with. Mind you, I've had many more years to acclimatize.
Pete
Pete, how long are you managing in a 3 mil top? Do you wear it for your deep dives as well? The reason I ask is that, when it comes to cold water, I MUST kick everyone's ass. I therefor need specifics in order to fine tune my victorious regime of personal power.
Seriously jealous of your in water frequency - Kath recently had foot surgery and I've been limited to weekends.
Seriously jealous of your in water frequency - Kath recently had foot surgery and I've been limited to weekends.
I swim for up to 1:30-1:45 or so, but it's my feet that start to ice up after that. I wear two pairs of 3mm socks (with some holes in them, I think), but I don't kick much so there's not much circulation.
When I get out, I'm not hot, but I'm not cold either. I'll make a few dives along to way to check out bottom features but they are very energetic and short (no fins and no weightbelt!).
If I were diving, it would be a totally different story in a 3mm top. I've tried it before in winter to see how cold I would get. It doesn't take long. The suit compression at depth is just too demoralizing. I'd rather dive without a suit than with false hope. But for 4-5 dives, it's okay, I guess.
When I get out, I'm not hot, but I'm not cold either. I'll make a few dives along to way to check out bottom features but they are very energetic and short (no fins and no weightbelt!).
If I were diving, it would be a totally different story in a 3mm top. I've tried it before in winter to see how cold I would get. It doesn't take long. The suit compression at depth is just too demoralizing. I'd rather dive without a suit than with false hope. But for 4-5 dives, it's okay, I guess.
are you wearing a triathilon skin? if so how do your arms stay warm? im confused I assume your crawling those distances??
Eric,
i noticed in the original pilot study that McCarty's supplement protocol also included 600 mcg chromium picolinate. i did a quick literature perusal and it seems the findings are mixed regarding the effects of supplemental chromium. a few participants even reported nasty side effects, although the amounts they ingested in these cases were relatively high.
what is your take on using chromium with your thermogenic supplement protocol (i.e., chromium picolinate)?
cheers,
sean
vancouver, canada
From what I have heard, chromium picolinate is somewhat toxic, and instead one should take chromium polynicotinate. Although I do have chromium polynicotinate, I don't take it on a regular basis, although my multivitamin does have a small amount of both types of chromium. Chromium seems to be drained out of your body when you eat sweets, and taking chromium can reduce junk food cravings (at least for me).
Not sure how important or relevant it is for the heat generating protocol.
Not sure how important or relevant it is for the heat generating protocol.
thanks, i appreciate your input.
our goal of heat production is quite different from the intent of most research. reading through the literature it is sometimes challenging (for me) to try and understand and identify possible heat producing reactions from the rest (e.g., appetite suppression, blood sugar maintenance, etc).
cheers,
sean
our goal of heat production is quite different from the intent of most research. reading through the literature it is sometimes challenging (for me) to try and understand and identify possible heat producing reactions from the rest (e.g., appetite suppression, blood sugar maintenance, etc).
cheers,
sean
post menopausal hot flashes and low blood oxygen
this may not immediately seem germane to our ongoing discussion, however bear with me a moment. my mother (bless her soul:inlove) was recently diagnosed with sleep apnea and also experiences periodic hot flashes. what i found interesting was that her doctor indicated her nightly hot flashes may be due in part to her sleep apnea; however, hot flashes are so common among breast cancer survivors that sleep apnea is likely not the only cause. we will find out more after she goes to the sleep disorders clinic.
hot flashes, hmmm perhaps this is what we are after? it does seem an interesting avenue for reading/research for potential cold water applications. here is my mother, who is experiencing what we are trying to replicate while diving (sudden hot periods) and who is also trying to prevent the very conditions we actively seek out in training (low blood oxygen levels). i found the symmetry of our relative positions rather intriguing.
after some initial reading it appears hot flashes involve much vasodilation and associated sweating, which might work against the dive response or even cause overall heat loss when in the water. a better understanding of the associated mechanisms and physiology of hot flashes might however still prove fruitful. those of you with physiology backgrounds feel free to jump in here.
bringing it back to heat producing supplements, has anyone used guggulsterone? (or more succinctly have you used it eric?
). it is the extract of the guggol tree and a common ingredient in many popular thermogenic/fat burning formulations. i found a number of anecdotal accounts by different people who reported feeling warm/hot after taking it. one study indicated guggulsterone may lower estrogen levels. perhaps the heat reported by some users is due to this effect, as when administered, estrogen will act to prevent hot flashes themeselves.
finally, i have read many accounts by cold water freedivers who shiver from cold on the surface but feel warm once diving. low blood oxygen and heat production, sound familiar? i can only speculate that similar mechanism are involved in heat production in both freediving and sleep apnea.
off hand, can anyone describe the mechanisms/physiology behind this phenomenon of being cold on the surface but then warm during the dive? do people feel warm immediately or is it halfway through the dive or at a certain depth that the feeling kicks in? i wonder what factors play a role in causing this effect? such as diving style (i.e., exhale), blood shift, low oxygen levels, rising co2 levels, or as a result of other aspects of the dive response, etc ? further speculation is most welcome. perhaps is is more the perception of heat rather than an increase in body temperature?
food for thought,
sean
vancouver, canada
this may not immediately seem germane to our ongoing discussion, however bear with me a moment. my mother (bless her soul:inlove) was recently diagnosed with sleep apnea and also experiences periodic hot flashes. what i found interesting was that her doctor indicated her nightly hot flashes may be due in part to her sleep apnea; however, hot flashes are so common among breast cancer survivors that sleep apnea is likely not the only cause. we will find out more after she goes to the sleep disorders clinic.
hot flashes, hmmm perhaps this is what we are after? it does seem an interesting avenue for reading/research for potential cold water applications. here is my mother, who is experiencing what we are trying to replicate while diving (sudden hot periods) and who is also trying to prevent the very conditions we actively seek out in training (low blood oxygen levels). i found the symmetry of our relative positions rather intriguing.
after some initial reading it appears hot flashes involve much vasodilation and associated sweating, which might work against the dive response or even cause overall heat loss when in the water. a better understanding of the associated mechanisms and physiology of hot flashes might however still prove fruitful. those of you with physiology backgrounds feel free to jump in here.
bringing it back to heat producing supplements, has anyone used guggulsterone? (or more succinctly have you used it eric?
). it is the extract of the guggol tree and a common ingredient in many popular thermogenic/fat burning formulations. i found a number of anecdotal accounts by different people who reported feeling warm/hot after taking it. one study indicated guggulsterone may lower estrogen levels. perhaps the heat reported by some users is due to this effect, as when administered, estrogen will act to prevent hot flashes themeselves.finally, i have read many accounts by cold water freedivers who shiver from cold on the surface but feel warm once diving. low blood oxygen and heat production, sound familiar? i can only speculate that similar mechanism are involved in heat production in both freediving and sleep apnea.
off hand, can anyone describe the mechanisms/physiology behind this phenomenon of being cold on the surface but then warm during the dive? do people feel warm immediately or is it halfway through the dive or at a certain depth that the feeling kicks in? i wonder what factors play a role in causing this effect? such as diving style (i.e., exhale), blood shift, low oxygen levels, rising co2 levels, or as a result of other aspects of the dive response, etc ? further speculation is most welcome. perhaps is is more the perception of heat rather than an increase in body temperature?
food for thought,
sean
vancouver, canada
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For me I think it has been more of a thought transfer than anything else, initially. I think then the rest of it comes from muscle movement generating heat.
When I start the dive I'm focusing on the dive not on whether I'm cold or not. My mind focuses on the task at hand and leaves everything else behind. Generally within the first 10 feet or so, once I'm settled into the dive I start to notice that I'm warmer. I think that is when the muscle movement/heat production has taken over. I don't dive with fins anymore and I don't use my arms to help me dive. Typically I'm only diving 25-30 feet deep and I generally don't spend any time at the bottom since the visibility isn't all that good and the only time I have ever seen any fish is while right up next to shore(there's nothing else to look at, so why bother).
I think it has a lot initially to do with the mental shift. During breathe up your mind has so many things it can think about and notice other than just one simple task, like while diving. This gives a big chance to start noticing that you are getting cold. It would be interesting to have a very sensitive themometer used to test body temp while diving to see if it always occurs at the same temperature in the same person. That would confirm or deny what I've just said. Using a controlled environment/pool could also make for some interesting tests. Does the body always respond at the same temperature or is it other influences that cause the body to respond, ie you've been in the water 'x' number of minutes/dives so its time to start getting cold. At times I think that might be the case for me as well.
Ryan
When I start the dive I'm focusing on the dive not on whether I'm cold or not. My mind focuses on the task at hand and leaves everything else behind. Generally within the first 10 feet or so, once I'm settled into the dive I start to notice that I'm warmer. I think that is when the muscle movement/heat production has taken over. I don't dive with fins anymore and I don't use my arms to help me dive. Typically I'm only diving 25-30 feet deep and I generally don't spend any time at the bottom since the visibility isn't all that good and the only time I have ever seen any fish is while right up next to shore(there's nothing else to look at, so why bother).
I think it has a lot initially to do with the mental shift. During breathe up your mind has so many things it can think about and notice other than just one simple task, like while diving. This gives a big chance to start noticing that you are getting cold. It would be interesting to have a very sensitive themometer used to test body temp while diving to see if it always occurs at the same temperature in the same person. That would confirm or deny what I've just said. Using a controlled environment/pool could also make for some interesting tests. Does the body always respond at the same temperature or is it other influences that cause the body to respond, ie you've been in the water 'x' number of minutes/dives so its time to start getting cold. At times I think that might be the case for me as well.
Ryan
I have the opposite - when I am doing an O2 table or repeated statics, I feel cold during apnea, and warm in the intervals.
Comments:
1. Guggulsterone: I believe Patrick Arnold (of infamy) was the first to synthesize guggulsterone. Once a coveted fat burning supplement, it seems to have recently fallen out of favour -- not sure why. I think I tried a small bit once, don't remember much. Maybe worth trying.
2. Feeling warm during the dive -- certainly elevated CO2 plays a part here, which inhibits shivering. However, noradrenaline also increases, which may also play a part.
1. Guggulsterone: I believe Patrick Arnold (of infamy) was the first to synthesize guggulsterone. Once a coveted fat burning supplement, it seems to have recently fallen out of favour -- not sure why. I think I tried a small bit once, don't remember much. Maybe worth trying.
2. Feeling warm during the dive -- certainly elevated CO2 plays a part here, which inhibits shivering. However, noradrenaline also increases, which may also play a part.
I finally properly tested this protocol - I switched from coconut oil (which is an absolutely wonderful replacement for butter!) to pure MCT oil - which is actually cheaper. I did about a tablespoon of that with L Carnitine, pyruvate and garcinia. There were a few extra things in there because I got the garcinia in a supplement called dietplex from nutricology.com. It also contains some of the other two - but in relatively small amounts - so I also bought supplements of them specifically.
Water was 41F/5c. It was a very dark, overcast day with fog and a fine rain. Air was 45f but I've noticed that the most benefit comes more from the sun warming your suit during breatheups than air temp. I did not use an ice mask - these really help quite a bit with conserving heat - at the cost of making you feel like a submarine. After about 10 minutes getting my face acclimated I did quite a few dives in an area that quickly drops off to about 50 feet (15meters). I think it was a bit colder on the bottom - plus suit compression.
Anyway - conditions were very conducive to feeling cold - dark, gloomy sky, uninteresting bottom and a total of four fish seen. (northern pike, one smallmouth bass and two suckers) After maybe 20 minutes I noticed a strange sort of heat emanating from my midsection. It is sort of odd feeling but definitely there. I dove for about an hour and a half - I did get cold (5 mil nylon out bottoms - 6 mil top, 1.5mil titanium vest) and could feel heat wicking out of the 5 mil bottoms. I think smoothskin bottoms would mitigate that - either that or my 6 mils. But I had no numbness and was largely comfortable after a couple of fin sprints. My hands and feet never got numb. The energy conserving style of diving really gets me cold fast. Also my times were terrible - but I've been 3 weeks out of the water and that spot is really creepy when its dark out.
Bottom line; it works! This winter I may get another henderson ice mask and, since there is not a whole lot to look at this time of year, I'll concentrate on fin sprints with relatively short breatheups and maybe a lighter suit.
Thanks to Eric for another brilliant discovery!
Water was 41F/5c. It was a very dark, overcast day with fog and a fine rain. Air was 45f but I've noticed that the most benefit comes more from the sun warming your suit during breatheups than air temp. I did not use an ice mask - these really help quite a bit with conserving heat - at the cost of making you feel like a submarine. After about 10 minutes getting my face acclimated I did quite a few dives in an area that quickly drops off to about 50 feet (15meters). I think it was a bit colder on the bottom - plus suit compression.
Anyway - conditions were very conducive to feeling cold - dark, gloomy sky, uninteresting bottom and a total of four fish seen. (northern pike, one smallmouth bass and two suckers) After maybe 20 minutes I noticed a strange sort of heat emanating from my midsection. It is sort of odd feeling but definitely there. I dove for about an hour and a half - I did get cold (5 mil nylon out bottoms - 6 mil top, 1.5mil titanium vest) and could feel heat wicking out of the 5 mil bottoms. I think smoothskin bottoms would mitigate that - either that or my 6 mils. But I had no numbness and was largely comfortable after a couple of fin sprints. My hands and feet never got numb. The energy conserving style of diving really gets me cold fast. Also my times were terrible - but I've been 3 weeks out of the water and that spot is really creepy when its dark out.
Bottom line; it works! This winter I may get another henderson ice mask and, since there is not a whole lot to look at this time of year, I'll concentrate on fin sprints with relatively short breatheups and maybe a lighter suit.
Thanks to Eric for another brilliant discovery!
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