Surface Protocol: changes needed?

[rxcnc2]

* The verbal OK could be cancelled from the surface protocol.

I agree

* One could consider not defining a nose-clip as part of the facial equipment.

ok... but then why remove the goggles?

* Touching the athlete.

I think this is one rule which is better leave for now. I agree that it is absurd to disqualify somebody for a finger on the shoulder, but it is one very simple rule (good for 5yrs old as you say), and it is very simple to avoid the penalty because it's a rule for the coach who supposedly is well alert and oxygenated. If you want to start defining which touches are allowed and which ones not, it becomes complicated.

 

[Arjen]

Everything I've read so far to change the SP only makes the SP much more complicated for everybody. What can be more easily understood than:

1: When a diver surfaces he has to keep his airways out of the water by himself. He may grab anything floating in the neighborhood as long as it is NOT a person
2: He has to remove everything diving related from his face
3: Give a very well defined sign
4: He has to say: "I am OK"
5: Do this within a well defined amount of time
6: He has to keep his face out of the water without someone touching him until the judge shows him a card. Also within a well defined amount of time.

Everything in here is a test where the athlete has to show he is still in control. It is not complicated to judge. I think it will be very hard to improve on this and everything I've read only made it more complicated.

The only hard thing that looks hard to me to judge at the moment are the PBOMM. But than again, I am not a judge and have seen very few of them where I was actually in a position that I could observe them.

And why would we want to change anything. I saw the A and B finals DYN and DNF with my own eyes and they were absolutely exhilarating. If you work a little bit harder on bringing it on screen with more camera's you could sell it anywhere. I found it it more dramatic than most of the swimming and athletic finals at the Olympics.

 

[rxcnc2]

Arjen,

this whole thread started from PBMM. The SP you describe is clear, I agree (except I don't like the verbal part for reasons already stated). But the judge can still disqualify you for PBMM even if you did everything you list.


problem 1
PBMM definition is subjective, and some judges give red and others give white.


problem 2
BO leads to DQ in AIDA, but there is no real "harsh punishment" and some argue that there are more BO in AIDA than in CMAS because of this.

 

[Arjen]

Arjen,

this whole thread started from PBMM. The SP you describe is clear, I agree (except I don't like the verbal part for reasons already stated). But the judge can still disqualify you for PBMM even if you did everything you list.


problem 1
PBMM definition is subjective, and some judges give red and others give white.


problem 2
BO leads to DQ in AIDA, but there is no real "harsh punishment" and some argue that there are more BO in AIDA than in CMAS because of this.

I understand perfectly, but in the previous posts a lot of people where suggesting changes to the existing SP that were in my opinion not very beneficial.

I also think that we should keep the verbal, even if you have multiple lanes. It is something that shows you have control over your airways.

As I have said, I do not have enough experiance with PBMM to have a valid opinion. Have not had one, have not withnessed enough of them.

Also, I do not like the CMAS protocol at all. I have seen the DYN finals from both CMAS and AIDA and CMAS was just people doing a max attempt. AIDA was a battle between athletes with drama. Whenever you will adopt a CMAS style SP, you will loose so much that makes the sport so breath taking. Something else I have seen in the CMAS protocol. If you survive as an athlete for the time needed to touch the yellow thingy, you can black out as much as you want. Because it was at that time legal for your coach to grab you and keep you out of the water. I have seen this myself in the CMAS qualification heats at least twice. The athlete was just able to touch the yellow thing, was not able to remove the mask or anything and than the coach grabbed her and the attempt was valid. Under AIDA rules it would have been a BO.

And about harsher punishments for BO's. OK, but propose something. Like I already said, it will be very hard to get a fair system that is also controllable.

 

[trux]

I agree that the rules, and the protocol should stay as simple as possible.

On the other hand I do not quite share the opinion that watching the performances at WC was always exhilarating. All the performances were fantastic, many of the SP were clean, but many were under heavy LMC, and sometimes perhaps even under BO. OK, they were often funny for us, but that's just because samba became inseparable part of any competition. For anyone external to freediving, the images were horrifying, and I saw many such people turning away with disgust, or shaking their heads in disbelieve. I do not think any of them will ever permit their kids to practice competitive freediving.

I find it quite strange how today's freedivers easily accept LMC and BO. For most, not surfacing under samba means failure. But you should perhaps still remember that samba was not allowed under AIDA rules (as it is still not under other federations). And the purpose of the new protocol was not allowing samba. Its purpose was to remove the subjective role of the judge, and replace it by a protocol that is complicated enough that a freediver under LMC does not manage to complete it. Unfortunately, in this point, the protocol completely failed. Freedivers today are not only able completing the protocol under heavy samba, but they lock themselves on the line or edge so well, that often even a brief BO comes through.

Fortunately there are still top freedivers of the old school, who show that you can make even world records with a perfectly clean surfacing. Just have a look on the SP of Natalia Molchanova, or some other athletes. For me, these are the real freedivers, and not those who hang on the line, desperately trying to remove their mask while convulsing and shaking, and then managing it in the last second. Do we really want to go this way?

So if I can voice my opinion, the SP should be indeed as simple as possible, preferably not allowing any subjective judging (like the PBMM), but in the same time difficult enough so that a freediver without motor control has much harder time to complete it, than it is today.

So let's look at the options proposed in this thread - so far, most of them require much more complicated SP (more signs, using both hands, etc). This is probably not the way to go - some freedivers will be able to drill it and do it under LMC anyway, but there will be many more of DQ of clean performances because of stupid mistakes.

Removing the verbal sign? Well, perhaps. It would help reducing the number of some truly stupid mistakes, but in the same time some more LMC will pass through, because the larynx muscles are often blocked by LMC as first. So personally I'd rather prefer keeping it.

No necessity for removing the nose clip? Yes, perhaps. Finally there are people who have just a mask or goggles, or no equipment at all, so having to remove both the goggles and the nose clip is a clear disadvantage. But then again, it is the choice of the freediver to use or not to use two pieces of facial equipment. He/she can also attach the noseclip to the goggles and remove them both with one movement.

Something else, that would help simplifying the SP, while keeping it less subjective, but avoiding that BO and LMC pass through? No, so far I believe I did not see any such proposal here except of the ban on using lines, edges, and floats as support to lay or hang on. On my mind this is currently the only suggestion that would help improving the SP, and reducing the number of approved LMC and BO in the same time, and also removing the need for the subjective PBMM rule. It is certainly not perfect, but hopefully some other ideas come in.

 

[Arjen]

I find it quite strange how today's freedivers easily accept LMC and BO.

That is because we know so much more about them then say 10 years ago. And we know you do not have to be afraid of it as long as you dive in a safe environment. Doesn't mean we like them, just means we accept it as part of our sport.

An other factor in this whole chirade is the simple fact that there are a lot of atheletes competing for a very limited number of medals. More so than a few years back. And those athletes are quite close to one another so you will have to do a PB to make the finals or get to the prizes. You have to go to the edge, otherwise you won't even make the B finals anymore. That puts enormous pressure on athletes and they will push to the edge or over it. Whatever you do with the surface protocol, the athletes will train to the point that they can do it even under a BO. If we have around 25 athletes who can do a 225-250 meters the next WC, and I think we will, you will see even more BO's. To many people for to few places.

 

[rxcnc2]

So if I can voice my opinion, the SP should be indeed as simple as possible, preferably not allowing any subjective judging (like the PBMM), but in the same time difficult enough so that a freediver without motor control has much harder time to complete it, than it is today.

Yes, we agree on these goals. There is one other goal: how to define and sanction BO, so that hopefully there are less of them.

Unfortunately, none of the ideas suggested so far seems to nail it. To ban the use of support during SP means you will never reach your limits.
If someone can finish a DNF and stay in the water with chin above water, without standing at the bottom and without touching the line or edge, he/she deserves a giant "chicken card" from Linda.

The best course of action, if no practical proposals emerge, is that the judges discuss among themselves what exactly is PBMM and hopefully they agree, so that we don't see white card for a guy shaking twice more than another one with red card.

 

[rxcnc2]

To many people for to few places.

So? I mean, if I go to a competition I like to do my best under the circumstances, regardless if I am aiming at a medal or not.

The italian CMAS federation (FIPSAS) came up with "categories" to solve the problem of giving more medals, and to put a cap on performances "over the limit". I personally think it's quite wrong.

 

[trux]

Yes, we agree on these goals. There is one other goal: how to define and sanction BO, so that hopefully there are less of them.

Unfortunately, none of the ideas suggested so far seems to nail it. To ban the use of support during SP means you will never reach your limits.
If someone can finish a DNF and stay in the water with chin above water, without standing at the bottom and without touching the line or edge, he/she deserves a giant "chicken card" from Linda.

Actually, if you are not allowed laying/hanging on the support, BO would not pass, and there would be no need for the subjective PBMM rule.

And I do not suggest banning of standing on the bottom, or touching the line, float, or edge. But say that only touching it with hands is permitted (or perhaps forearms could be acceptable too). That's fully sufficient even for an exhausted diver, who is under proper motor control.

 

[rxcnc2]

Standing on the bottom is often not possible.

If you start making distinctions between what parts of the body can touch the line or edge, you will end up in even more confusion and "videoroom" decisions.

 

[trux]

Standing on the bottom is often not possible.

That's fine. I just wrote I did not suggest banning it, as it may have looked from your reaction.

If you start making distinctions between what parts of the body can touch the line or edge, you will end up in even more confusion and "videoroom" decisions.

Yes, I am aware of it, and mentioned it previously. However, since it would eliminate other controversial and subjective aspects, I think the positives still prevail. But in the same time, I hope someone comes with more ideas.

 

[pehtran]

ok, I see it that way.
So some do not want to see ugly scenes (BO, samba, PBMM) on the freediving competitions. It might also be a prejudice. I have listened to some of the experts who have done many research on that subject and I belive it is not as bad as it looks. Also I belive it is a very, very small difference to the body and the brain between a max clean performance and a max performance ending with a BO. But at the end of the day it is the decision of us the freediviers how we will make this sport look on the outside. Sure it is a bit disturbing to see a freediver blacking out but even more disturbing is probably to see a boxer receiving huge blows to the head then falling to the ground unconcious, getting up, trying to fight again, covered in blood..... And yet it is widely accepted and there are more examples like this in the world of sports.
We all like beautiful recreational freediving but when it comes to competitive sport some good old fighting to the end is always there. (By the way: I compete for 5 years and have been to my second WC and experienced my first samba and disqualification and have never had a BO so far.)

And most importaint: if someone comes up with the rule that is even more strict then the existing one but can guarantee a fair and objectiv judging I am all for it. But until then I will vote for only "airways above surface in the combination with the existing protocole" as I see it as the most fair.

And I agree: there is nothing more inspiring and beautiful to see then the surface protocol like Natalija's. But there is only one Natalija in the world of freediving unfortunately.

Miha

 

[Arjen]

And I agree: there is nothing more inspiring and beautiful to see then the surface protocol like Natalija's. But there is only one Natalija in the world of freediving unfortunately.

That is absolutely true, but I still would like to see what would happen if there were 6 women with the capabilities of Natalia and all wanting to win the gold medal. I think we would have a lot of BO's and LMC's in those finals as well.

 

[trux]

Miha, the other problem with the current status is that the conditions are not same for everyone. At some competitions you have doubled lines under good tension, sometimes just a single line barely floating, at others you have a pool edge you can rest on, at others you have high pool edges you need to hang at, sometimes you have floats that may be more or less buoyant, etc. In this way, being allowed to use the support when it is there, sometimes the competitors have a very significant advantage over others. By limiting the way you can use the support, we would also equalize the conditions.

 

[ploum]

If you start making distinctions between what parts of the body can touch the line or edge, you will end up in even more confusion and "videoroom" decisions.

You could simply use line that cannot float wtih someone hanging on it. Problem solved.

(unfortunatly, it also means that you cannot use the edge anymore, only the line)

 

[trux]

You could simply use line that cannot float wtih someone hanging on it. Problem solved.

(unfortunatly, it also means that you cannot use the edge anymore, only the line)

There would be still problem at the wall - even if we would not permit using it, the line would support more weight there than in the middle

 

[pehtran]

Maybe the lines are not such a big problem.... ok, the tension is different from pool to pool, but on the same competition is the same for everybody. We could just write in the rules that the pool's edge is not to be used. The athleets should always swim in the lanes and use only the lanes as the support - not even the starting blocks as it is the case now since it is always tempting to go for the block which offers more support. Lines should stay also because of the safety divers - they use them to support the blacked out diver above the water.
Miha

 

[trux]

This still does not solve any of the mentioned problems - we want to get rid of the subjective PBMM rule, but in the same time do not want to allow BO. Permitting to use the line as support, allows the competitor to be under a really quite bad LMC and even BO without dipping airways underwater. If they were not permitted to use it in this way, but rather just merely holding on in by hands, the dipping rule would be sufficient. Perhaps even most of the protocol could be removed, and greatly simplifying it so.

 

[MikkoP]

I find it quite strange how today's freedivers easily accept LMC and BO. For most, not surfacing under samba means failure. But you should perhaps still remember that samba was not allowed under AIDA rules (as it is still not under other federations). And the purpose of the new protocol was not allowing samba. Its purpose was to remove the subjective role of the judge, and replace it by a protocol that is complicated enough that a freediver under LMC does not manage to complete it. Unfortunately, in this point, the protocol completely failed. Freedivers today are not only able completing the protocol under heavy samba, but they lock themselves on the line or edge so well, that often even a brief BO comes through.

Fortunately there are still top freedivers of the old school, who show that you can make even world records with a perfectly clean surfacing. Just have a look on the SP of Natalia Molchanova, or some other athletes. For me, these are the real freedivers, and not those who hang on the line, desperately trying to remove their mask while convulsing and shaking, and then managing it in the last second. Do we really want to go this way?

I really couldn't agree with you more. Which can seem a bit strange, if you watched my surfacing in the DNF finals. And I'm not probably even very much wrong, if I say that my dive was one of the dives that started this whole conversation.

It's kind of funny, because my goal has always been to do clean dives and I consider dives with sambas as partial failures, even if they are otherwise worth a white card. I'm not really sure what happened to me there in the finals, as my dives in the qualification heats were pretty clean and fine. I guess it was just the pressure and some kind of a subconscious idea that I have to do longer dives in the finals than in the qualifications. So, what should have been two clean dives within my limits, ended up being two blackouts (for which I received one red card and one white card(?!?)). But at least I can learn from this and hopefully never take my dives so close to the limits again.

So if I can voice my opinion, the SP should be indeed as simple as possible, preferably not allowing any subjective judging (like the PBMM), but in the same time difficult enough so that a freediver without motor control has much harder time to complete it, than it is today.

I agree on this one too. The PBMM rule is not really working the way it is supposed to. Now the color of the card depends on the judge, is the judge having a good or a bad day, and how loud the audience is cheering. I was already mentally preparing for a red card after my DNF, and it was bit of a surprise to receive a white card. I don't know if I really could have done it, but now I'm thinking that maybe I should have made a protest of myself, to change the white card to a red one.

But clearly something has to be done. In the rules it says, if I read them correctly, that the diver should be disqualified in the case of a blackout, even if he manages to keep his airways above water and do the SP in time. In Århus this didn't seem to be the case. Also the rising amount of BOs is alarming.

Forbidding the use of a line as support is one option, but I'm not sure if it solves more problems than it creates.


Mikko

 

[trux]

Sorry Mikko, I did not want to denigrate your performance. It was excellent. And your SP was a real fun. And finally you managed it, and as far as I could see, no rules were violated in your case. I wrote it the wrong way - everyone can get an LMC or BO, even Natalia does black out sometimes. I should not have written about "real" freedivers, but more about "clean" dives. My apologies for that to everyone.

Otherwise, I am still persuaded, that banning the support would solve more problems that it creates. Perhaps it could be tested on couple of unofficial competitions in this way, to see the real impact, and to uncover the problems it may bring.