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Surface Protocol: changes needed?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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The infamous surface protocol :)

Ok my 2c theory, the protocol is actually quite fine exepc of the PBMM rule. I have seen on this WCh red cards to almost completely fine dives due to PBMM... And then again I have seen white cards to divers under blackouts suffered on the lane.

So remove the PBMM and make it as simple as possible, airwaves above the water, and removing equipment + ok signal in right, under control, order. So when you start to remove equipment the rest must follow fluid with no interruptions.. So one can not remove mask, then shake for 8sec and then make an OK signal.. then shake for 5 sec and then say ok... Must be fluid with no longer interruptions. It is maybe a bit subjective but not really that much...

And 10sec protocol, I don't think so... 15sec is fine... we can maybe go with 10sec plus 2sec of tolerance... When I am completely clean, after a big dive, if I want to do a relax protocol, I need 7-8 sec, so i think 10sec is a bit on the edge...
 
So remove the PBMM and make it as simple as possible, airwaves above the water, and removing equipment + ok signal in right, under control, order. ...
Yes, Goran, this was already suggested several times in this thread. But the big problem with it is, that (as we saw) there are freedivers who manage to make the protocol and blackout subsequently and entirely. Since they are hanging on the line or are clinched on the pool edge, their airways remain above water, and there would be no way to disqualify them. Do we really want it in this way?
 
Sorry, I did not read the entire thread, but I do not see different way to dive out, then to grab the edge of the pool or the line.. Divers are diving with more then 5kg of neckweights and you must grab something. I understand what you all trying to say, but I just don't see more objective way then this already in use...
 
Grabing is fine, but not hanging/laying on it in the way it supports your wieght even when you BO or under strong LMC.
 
Just this for today:

Trux, I totaly see and respect what you mean and your suggestion is ok if you see the BO as a big problem. We may go this way. So no lines, simple protocol and that is it.
But if you accept some shaking as part of the game as I am suggesting here then there is SUCH A SIMPLE way out of this catch. And I did not see any athleets get away with a real BO anytime.

Do you think you will eliminate the sambas and BO-s with no lines in the pool? Maybe we should try as you suggest to see but I do not think so. And on top of that it is a big change that can lead to all sorts of unforseen problems.

And it is somewhat a hypocrisy: if we think that samba or BO is bad for image or for health then we should forbid it totaly. If not, we should allow it totaly and not be ashamed of it but make sure that the athleet finishes the protocol under his own power, that is all there is. It is like with downhill skiing: you can push yourself beyond your limit and still get away with it. But if you fall you get a disqualification and some injuries on top.

Miha
 
I have to repeat once again: I do not think we will avoid LMC and BO with any protocol. What we are looking for is a simple protocol, avodiing any subjective judging. Simple enough, but just, and objective. Personally, I think LMC and BO indeed damage the image of the sport, but that's actually a differnt topic.

In the past, LMC was disqualificative similarly to CMAS today. Later, because of too much subjectivity at judges, the rule was removed and SP was introduced, that ought to make it difficult enough to filter out people with LMC and BO. Unfortunately freedivers found ways to pass the protocol even with quite terrible sambas. And worse, we see more and more people actually blacking out before, during, or after the protocol. Currently practically only the dipping airways and PBMM rules allow to detect and disqulify them. This introduces two basical problems:

1) The subjectivity was moved from LMC to BO. There is no easy way tell whether a competitor is BO or not (without devices). Closed eyes? Hmm! PBMM, convulsions? As we saw, each judge has different ways to see it. Should we then permit BO completely, even it the freediver lays on the pool edge for several seconds apparently uncoscious? Hmm.

2) The conditions are not equal for all freedivers at different competitions, at different lanes, or even at different distances from the wall. Sometimes the freediver can perfectly hang on the line, or the edge, getting knocked out for many seconds, and getting white card (unless the judge detects PBMM). While other freedivers may not have the chance of the support, and will dip their airways while being actually in better state than the other one.

So yes, one way would be allowing both LMC and BO without limits (except of dipping the airways), but I really wonder who wants to go there, and whether you really realize the consequences. We already see now the consequences of the tolerance of LMC, so the toleration of BO may bring even a much stronger increase of bad accidents.
 
What criterias to approve a dive? Personally I think that if I can do a dive, come up and take care of myself (survive) without any assistance I find it ok.

Seems like most people here want: A: less subjective judging B: Fewer BO

Can we agree that if we take away the SP there would be less subjective judging??

Would this mean that we will see alot more BO? Maybe, but if a BO would give the athlete serious consequences I think not. For sure we would get rid of the silly DQ of fantastic performances.

Lets say you participate in a comp like WC. You know that if you do a PB you might make it to the finals. If you do a safe dive you`ll probably end up in 17th or 23rd. Do you really think it is the SP that makes you go for the 23rd position??
It is all up to the athlete. If the only consequence is that you`ll get a red card athletes will push to the limit. It doesn`t matter if you have to remove your noseclip or not?? Athletes can still do the SP with a BO.
 
Good discussion. I also feel a bit responsible for the discussion going on as I´m the guy from the DYN B-finals.

When coming up from the pool I knew that it had been a really bad one while surfacing. I only realized how bad a one it had been when I watched it on video. Not to happy about it. Actually feel ashamed of it. Should have left it a few meters shorter and come up clean.

As for the rules. There really is no saying in which of the suggested corrections would lead to the best reslut. Therefore it would be really good if AIDA could implement some "test rule" -procedure. Make a small change in the rules and measure the outcome. If the rule doesn´t work - drop it - and implement a new one. This is atleast standard procedure in IT systems development. In theory you know how the system should work but when the code is ready it needs lots of testing and tuning before it can be seen as finished.

Ofcourse this again would lead to having the rules changing frequently and then we´re back at square one again. There really seems to be no good anwser for this one.
 
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Keep in mind that the whole idea of the surface protocol came from the 'Blue Paper to AIDA' that was composed by Peter Scott, Tyler Zetterstrom and myself in 2003. However, when finally implementing the idea of the surface protocol, the true idea in the blue paper was lost.

The are two approaches:
1. You could try to ensure mental presence at all times upon surfacing
OR
2. You concentrate on the athlete taking care of his own safety

Using approach #1, the simplest rule implementation would be:
- Athlete surfaces
- Judge raises hand with X number of fingers pointed
- Athlete must raise hand and also point X number of fingers (same as judge)
- Athlete must keep hand raised with same hand position for 20 seconds
- This requires mental processing, so 'automatic memorizing' of the surface protocol is not possible

Using approach #2, there are several variants:
1. Use the side lane only, and the athlete must get out of the water onto the pool deck within 15-20 seconds. If the athlete injures himself trying to get out (due to LMC/BO) then that is his fault and his punishment for pushing it too far.
2. Alternately, the simple rule of recovering on your own without assistance.
 
I realize it is not easy to come up with a much better solution.
This might be a good compromise although not solving the root of the problem:

We keep the PBMM rule but the PBMM does not result in a red card but is rather penalized with the yellow card (maybe with 10 or 20 meter deduction). What we get is still a subjective judging but the subjectivity has much smaller consequences.

Two cases of PBMM DQ from the WC that I observed: the outcome with this new rule would be:
1. Antero Joki pushes just a little bit too far since obvioulsy he wants to make it to the A-final. He comes up, clearly has a PBMM but is capable of completing the protocol on his own. He receives a yellow card and is out of the A-final but with the deduction of say 30 seconds he makes it to the B-final.

2. Samo Jeranko turns at 150 in his qualifications because he wants to make it to the A-final. He comes up at 158m - enough for A-final - has a very nice protocol and looks ok, but his head clearly drops three times. Very easy for the judge - a clear PBMM. He receives a yellow card, is penalized with 20 meters, looses A-final but qualifies for the B-final.

(And of course Jonerik here would then be penalized for his B-final DYN performance :) and would not be 9th in the world but 13th in the world.)

Maybe?

Miha
 
Two cases of PBMM DQ from the WC that I observed: the outcome with this new rule would be:
1. Antero Joki pushes just a little bit too far since obvioulsy he wants to make it to the A-final. He comes up, clearly has a PBMM but is capable of completing the protocol on his own. He receives a yellow card and is out of the A-final but with the deduction of say 30 seconds he makes it to the B-final.

2. Samo Jeranko turns at 150 in his qualifications because he wants to make it to the A-final. He comes up at 158m - enough for A-final - has a very nice protocol and looks ok, but his head clearly drops three times. Very easy for the judge - a clear PBMM. He receives a yellow card, is penalized with 20 meters, looses A-final but qualifies for the B-final.

I think this is actually a very good proposal that I hope won´t be shot down immediately. This really could be implemented because this method would make on spot judging so much more easier!

Ofcourse it could probably make protests even more common, but I think the judging would be much fairer that the white card / red card situation that now really creates so much unfair situations.

I think this logic could also apply for the coach touching rule. On Alekseys STA surfacing on you clearly see the coach touching him still after surfacing. But still the touching is of so little importance to his performance that a yellowcard would have been much more appropriate than the red card the current rules allowed for.

Also a few divers were DQ:ed due to the coach touching a few seconds them after the OT in DYN. A yellowcard would be much more appropriate in also this situation.
 
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Also a few divers were DQ:ed due to the coach touching a few seconds them after the OT in DYN. A yellowcard would be much more appropriate in also this situation.

Sorry, this doesn't concern SP, but why does this rule even exist? Why can the coach touch the athlete until OT, but not after it? Wouldn't it be more logical, if the coach could touch the athlete until the athlete's airways submerge?

Example:

Case 1: The coach is holding the athlete from his shoulders before the start, so that it is easier for him to relax in a 1,8 m deep pool, where he can't stand on the bottom. The athlete starts exactly at OT and the coach releases him at the same moment. No problem, white card.

Case 2: The same situation as earlier, but now the athlete starts five seconds after the OT, and his coach again releases him when his airways submerge. Red card.

What is the benefit that the diver in the case 2 gets and the diver in the case 1 doesn't? None. But still there were disqualifications because of this in Århus. Of course, it is very easy for the coach to release the athlete already just before the OT, but I still don't see, why we should have rules that disqualify or penalize the athlete for no reason.
 
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what about a coach pushing the athlete in the start so he can safe some effort during the start or accelerate faster.....? maybe that is reason for the rule description....not that I know by the way rofl (seriously, I do not know for sure anymore and have no time do a back search)

on every rule you could find pro's and con's .....

Grtzzzzz Pim
 
what about a coach pushing the athlete in the start so he can safe some effort during the start or accelerate faster.....?

I thought about that, but if we changed the rule so that the coach could touch the athlete until the athlete's airways submerge, then the only way the coach could push the athlete is while the athlete's airways are still above water. And I have a hard time imagining a way to do it so that it would do anything else than just ruin the start of the dive.

And if there is such a way, it is allowed by the current rules if you do it exactly at the official top.
 
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I second Mikko on this one. It is absolutely redundant and useles rule. Get rid of it.
 
Hello,

I think the solution lies in coming to grips with a consistent approach to the rules.

I think that equating the recovery period with the moments AFTER the finish line of a 100m track race makes no sense at all.

In our sport, the recovery is more like the last 10m of such a race. In a 100m track sprint or say, even better, a marathon, if you fail to cross the finish line, you're out. No official result. Zero points.

So our surface protocol is part of completing the race, not what happens after. The points made about runners collapsing has only relevance to the look and feel of the sport (boxing, rodeo, UFC, are all good counter points).

What I see as a missed opportunity or point for further investigation is in the discussion of the float/no float argument. The assumption that heavy neck weights mean that an enforced self-reliance during SP is just not feasible (self-supported) is not at all evident to me.

That being said, wouldn't make so much more sense if athletes had to support themselves on the surface? Yes, it is difficult. Yes, it would put divers with more body fat or huge lungs at a disadvantage. Boo hoo! Them's the breaks! (It would be nice to level the playing field somewhat for all those big lunged freaks!). So you would have a choice to make: a configuration that lets you float more during SP or one that gives you perfect neutral buoyancy during the swim?

Natalia and a few others have already taken this step with dispensing of goggles. Yes, it is harder to see. Yes, you'll have to wait for the water to clear from your eyes on the surface. Yes, perhaps it can make you feel less sure of how clear and crisp you are at the end of your dive. Yes, people with contact are at a disadvantage if they want to use this approach because they will be almost blind on the surface when they have to face the judge.

But you have possibly higher DR, more streamlining, simplicity, no risk of goggle failure, and a dirt simple SP (for some).

You make your choice and pick your strategy. I see this point the same way.

For sure, if someone needs to scull with their hands or lay on their backs (which would work in the SP as long as mouth doesn't go under), then a samba or pmbm will be way more likely to disqualify a competitor, perhaps to the point where it would virtually eliminate white cards in those cases.

If someone shakes/sambas AND manages to keep their airway above the water, and signal okay, while using hands and arms to support themselves, then in my mind they are conscious enough to deserve the white card.

It would be interesting to see if someone with pmbm could actually keep themselves on the surface under these conditions. And by definition a black out should 99% of the time result in someone going under if a true black out means a momentary complete lapse of motor control.

It also levels the playing field from pool to pool around the world and brings in an extra layer of safety in the sense of clarity for the safety divers - oh! he's gone under...grab him. If he stops sculling, and begins to sink, the safeties can get ready to assist. They have the chance for some amount of fair warning.

I guess we tend to think of optimal weighting in freediving, especially in pool events, as a sacred right. However, going back to a pure safety ideal, if you are neutral underwater and very negative at the surface, you are in more danger. I do like to have the rules have some relation to real world safety strategies...my bias, take it or leave it.

There, all done:
- pmbm: solved
- differences from pool to pool or lane to lane: solved
- subjective judging: solved (airway above surface, full protocol becomes more exacting so less room for false positives)

Just from one simple rule change: self-support during SP. :friday

Okay, my delusional celebration is over. Looking forward to hearing counter arguments or further developments of this train of thought.

Oh, and Linda, you're only a chicken if you stop the race before you get to the finish line, but if you didn't cross it, you just screwed up. :inlove

Pete
 
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I like it, because it would favour tall people! I can stand up at the deep end of nearly all the pools I've competed in. And of couse you'd have to allow standing on the bottom, because you couldn't expect people not to touch the bottom at the shallow end.
 
Laminar:

First: No sane person would choose to be positive during a dynamic dive to get an easier SP. I also don`t believe in partially filled lungs in a dynamic.

Second: You want to give a disadvantage to short, fat or big-lunged people that uses lenses??:head Come on!

Third: In principle I`m not a fan of super buoyant suits and 20kg of weight, but now I might reconsider. How easy wouldn`t it be if you put on a 7mm suit, 20kg weight and just drop the weights before you surface. You could probably be on your back with a blackout for 10s or more without dipping.
 
The original protocol, years ago, used to be based on the question

"if you were on your own, out in the ocean, with no support - would you have survived that dive?" - that seems a sensible thing to base it on - and therefore there IS an argument for taking away the float/line/surface support option.

EXCEPT that no one in their right mind would attempt a 100m plus freedive on their own in the open ocean.. so maybe this theory is no longer relevant...

The no touching role came in partly as a result of coaches holding up athletes who had LMC or black out (in one case pretty much puppeteering them through the surface protocol) and also because of all the coaches and support team piling on top of the athlete on surfacing with high fives etc so the judges couldn't even see them. There is some good footage of this kind of behaviour on video of the world cups in Ibiza and Nice
 
The no touching role came in partly as a result of coaches holding up athletes who had LMC or black out (in one case pretty much puppeteering them through the surface protocol) and also because of all the coaches and support team piling on top of the athlete on surfacing with high fives etc so the judges couldn't even see them. There is some good footage of this kind of behaviour on video of the world cups in Ibiza and Nice


I have the footage at home.......and yes Sam is correct with this, for example a knee of coach holding up an athlete ass after static, etc.


Grtzzzz Pim
 
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