The situation in Italy

[joefox]

Thank you Will.

- The WC was cancelled because of the weather.
- Don't know the exact number of countries, anyway I'll let you know as soon as I can. Remember that we're not talking of freedivers coming from this or that country. We're talking about national federations.

- As an Italian freediver I can choose between CMAS and AIDA as anyone else on this planet. I don't understand why you go on trying to point out a difference between Italians and the rest of the world... there's no difference.

Every freediver in the world has to make his choice. Is this clear?
Regarding Italy, you already know what Umberto Pelizzari and Apnea Academy think of AIDA, I don't think I have to remind you.

---- other than at once-yearly, dubious 2m dynamic & 15m dynamic CMAS 'world cups'

Why dubious dynamic? The rules are very similar to AIDA's, but LMC rules are quite similar to the ones proposed with the BLUE PAPER.

Remember: CMAS organizes continental and world championships, not "Cups". AIDA organizes world cups because they cannot name their competitions "World Championship". Did you know that? Yes, there's a sort of copyright on these terms.

-- Furthermore, foreign apneists are prohibited from competing amongst their Italian friends in Italy.

Nop. The federation of your country can take part, for example, to the European Championship which will be held in Sicily (Siracusa) next year. Your federation and its atheletes, not individuals, as it happens in each and every single official competition in any sport recognized by CIO.

--- How is this segregation beneficial for our sport?

This is not segregation, this is regulation. Could you go and take part to any world championship of any sport without being a part of your nationa team? Well, with CMAS it's the same in freediving. This is called official rules, safety and no need for good freedivers to have money to afford a competition.

Have you ever been thinking about this? Let's say I can do 180+ meters in dynamic but I don't have money to go to Vancouver. What can I do? With CMAS, I just have to demonstrate that I can do the job, money would not be a problem.

Giorgio

 

[joefox]

Thank you Will.

- The WC was cancelled because of the weather.
- Don't know the exact number of countries, anyway I'll let you know as soon as I can. Remember that we're not talking of freedivers coming from this or that country. We're talking about national federations.

- As an Italian freediver I can choose between CMAS and AIDA as anyone else on this planet. I don't understand why you go on trying to point out a difference between Italians and the rest of the world... there's no difference.

Every freediver in the world has to make his choice. Is this clear?
Regarding Italy, you already know what Umberto Pelizzari and Apnea Academy think of AIDA, I don't think I have to remind you.

---- other than at once-yearly, dubious 2m dynamic & 15m dynamic CMAS 'world cups'

Why dubious dynamic? The rules are very similar to AIDA's, but LMC rules are quite similar to the ones proposed with the BLUE PAPER.

Remember: CMAS organizes continental and world championships, not "Cups". AIDA organizes world cups because they cannot name their competitions "World Championship". Did you know that? Yes, there's a sort of copyright on these terms.

-- Furthermore, foreign apneists are prohibited from competing amongst their Italian friends in Italy.

Nop. The federation of your country can take part, for example, to the European Championship which will be held in Sicily (Siracusa) next year. Your federation and its atheletes, not individuals, as it happens in each and every single official competition in any sport recognized by CIO.

--- How is this segregation beneficial for our sport?

This is not segregation, this is regulation. Could you go and take part to any world championship of any sport without being a part of your nationa team? Well, with CMAS it's the same in freediving. This is called official rules, safety and no need for good freedivers to have money to afford a competition.

Have you ever thought about this? Let's say I can do 180+ meters in dynamic but I don't have money to go to Vancouver. What can I do? With CMAS, I just have to demonstrate that I can do the job, money would not be a problem.

Giorgio

 

[joefox]

Sorry, I posted twice.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Ok, I'm beginning to loose track here, what is it we're talking about? As I understood the thread so far, Italian CMAS have moved to prevent Italian freedivers from participating in their events, given that they participate in events held by 'the others' (AIDA & FREE, I guess).
This is what off hand sounds semi-fascistic sports ruling in my book, and aparently to others as well. Have we all misread the text somewhere? I mean, if someone in AIDA denied Dalkilich or Pelizzari to participate in AIDA events because they had conducted records in another fraction, or simply because of what ever past controversy, I'd complain fiercely about it, and hopefully others of my peers in AIDA would as well.

So again, who's deciding what and why do they do it? I just wanna get my facts straight, and I also wanna be sure I haven't misunderstood CMAS' intentions (what are CMAS' intentions in this case?).

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

 

[rcerdena]

Giorgio:
I have one question regarding this topic.
What happens to athletes from other nationalities, who belong to their national federations (and therefore to CMAS) and who take part in an AIDA competition? Would this have consequences? Or, as it was posted before, is this only a decision from the italian federation for their members?

Thanks for the answer,

RCC

 

[Will]

Sorry for being unclear - the reasons I called the CMAS champs dubious were:
a) this is the first I heard of it, and I couldn't find any detailed information on the internet
b) the only discipline contested will be dynamic (whether at 2m or 15m)

Cheers for the enlightening comments Giorgio,
So it seems like CMAS regulation is valid for the majority of countries. However since Italy is one of the only countries where the local branch of CMAS (in their case FIPSAS) is actually actively involved in freediving, they are the only country to be really influenced by its regulations.
The benefits of CMAS seem to be that it may provide funding for athletes and it is the only 'official' entity involved in apnea. Is this worth sacrificing Constant Weight, Static Apnea and friendly World Cups like Freeology and the AIDA world champs? You decide...

 

[Will]

Here are some interesting rules from the CMAS pdf file:

2.1.1. Only CMAS has the right to organise World, Zone and Continental Championships and CMAS apnoea
competitions. "World, Zone, Continental" and "CMAS" words cannot be associated with any apnoea
competition without the agreement of CMAS.
2.1.7. CMAS will grant the right of organising a labelled championship to a Federation or candidate
organisations only after having received the following documents:
a) The form for the request of organisation, duly filled and signed, enclosures included. This form must
be sent back to CMAS secretariat, 2 years before the year of the event.

3.1.2. No apnoea competition is authorised in water being more than 15 Mt in depth.
3.1.3. Authorised equipment:
c) A mask to protect eyes and for having a better sight into the water. Mask must mandatory cover eyes
and nose. (So fluid goggles would be prohibited, not that it matters when you’re only going to 15m!)
d) The athlete has the possibility not to use the mask. In this case, the athlete cannot use other material
(lenses- contact lenses etc.)

5.2.1. Each athlete may use during his/her dive a ballast of 1 kg or 2 kg or 3 kg max. proposed by organisers.
This ballast, tied to a 17 Mt rope, will be tightened to the atoll of the Start Island.
5.2.1.1. This ballast must be left, under penalty of disqualification, when the athlete touches the plate of
0,30 Mt in diameter indicating that he/she may continue the race.
5.2.1.2. The depth assistant will collect this ballast.
5.2.1.3. Athletes cannot use personal ballast.
5.4.5. In case of syncope during one of his/her attempts, the athlete is disqualified and he will lose everything
he attained in previous attempts. (There is no mention of samba regulations)
5.5.1. All competitors have the possibility to make two attempts.
5.5.2. The best attempt will be registered for the ranking of the athlete.

Paradoxically, one of the requirements of a CMAS instructor is to be able to dive vertically to 25m. What’s this? CMAS apnea DOESN’T EXIST beyond 15m, so why does an instructor need to be able to go deeper???

 

[Phoerixx]

Jump Blue

Hi,
last august i took part at a JB competition in Rovinj. It was well organized but due to poor weather (strong wind and waves) the competition was held in a marina at a depth of 7m. 1/3 of all competitors black-outed after doing dynamics at only 7m. I'm sure i would BO too if the competition was hold at 15m as anonncoued. The weighting system felt on leg as I desended. I will not mention that the visibility was only 5m and so the safety freedivers had to make tourns for keeping an eye on us.
The view of the BO competitors was clearly a big physcological load for the others.

So far so good all blackouters were fine after all, as always.

At the end my feelings were mixed and confused. It was my first freediving competition at all and maybe I will do it again, but...
CONSTANT WEIGHT is freediving. JB is swimming at 15m.

I wish CMAS and AIDA could discuss the matter in a constructive way.

PS: as mentioned in a thread on this forum that AIDA competitions have a lot of "turists".... for now a lot of "JB" competitors are "turists" them self.

Good luck freediving.

Regards,
Erik Stojanovic, SAPA apnea team

 

[joefox]

- What happens to athletes from other nationalities, who belong to their national federations (and therefore to CMAS) and who take part in an AIDA competition?

Words of MR Achille Ferrero, President of CMAS (our FIPSAS asked the same question to him): "In merito alla partecipazione di atleti di Federazioni affiliate a competizioni organizzate al di fuori del controllo della Confederazione, si precisa che quelle non iscritte a Calendario NON sono riconosciute dalla Confederazione. Ne consegue che queste manifestazioni non hanno copertura di alcun genere verso responsabilità oggettive e soggettive ed inoltre, che i risultati conseguiti non possono essere omologati. Si precisa, inoltre, che gli atleti che parteciperanno a manifestazioni non riconosciute saranno segnalati al Bureau Executif per i provvedimenti conseguenti".

Translation (please Will correct me)

"Regarding athetes of CMAS Federation taking part to competitions organized outside the control of CMAS, we make clear that competitions not included in CMAS calendar of events are NOT recognized by CMAS. As a result of this, these events don't offer protection against any personal or strict responsibility and their result cannot be validated by CMAS. Also, the athetes who take part to non recognized competitions will be reported to Bureau Executif for the consequent actions".

Example: if Natalia Molchanova goes to Cyprus or to another non official international competition and someone report this to CMAS, she won't be able to go to the CMAS WC and/orthe European Champ in 2005. The Team of Russia will still be able to go, but not her. This will affects only those willing to compete in CMAS comps with their official National Team inside their federation, not the others. Once again: if you like constant ballast, you must know that CMAS only recognize World Records, they don't organize competitions.

--------------
5.4.5. In case of syncope during one of his/her attempts, the athlete is disqualified and he will lose everything
he attained in previous attempts. (There is no mention of samba regulations)
--------------

Here:

5.4.5. In case of syncope during one of his/her attempts, the athlete is disqualified and he will loose everything
he attained in previous attempts.
5.4.6. Other divers cannot touch the athlete, except in case of emergency.
5.4.7. At the end of race, the athlete must hand the baton to the surface judge.
5.4.8. The surface judge hands immediately the baton to the judge at arrival who will inform secretariat.



"At the end of race, the athlete must hand the baton to the surface judge": if the athelete makes it, he can even BO the dive is valid. If he doesn't make it or need assistance, the dive is not valid and the athele is disqualified (you have two attempts to access the final stage, which is other 2 attempts for the best 8 freedivers).


---So it seems like CMAS regulation is valid for the majority of countries. However since Italy is one of the only countries where the local branch of CMAS (in their case FIPSAS) is actually actively involved in freediving, they are the only country to be really influenced by its regulations.

Not true. Who told you that? Spain, Greece, France, Italy, China, Russia, Tunisia, Tahiti, Brasil...these are just a few federations. By the way, CMAS recently changed their statute, now things are much different. Before last week, if a federation was affiliated to CMAS, then no other affiliations from the same country could be accepted. Now federations have to apply for each sport discipline they want to represent, so if -for example- canadian federation doesn't organize freediving competition, then another federation can apply for the affiliation and start organizing CMAS freediving activities.

Phoerixx: After that competition the organizers where so sad and disappointed by this JB that they decided to organize the World Championship. At the Grand Prix in Tremiti islands none of our national team had problems, and all the people there said it was not easy but safe for sure.

Anyway... who said JB would be an easy game?

You must traing hard and, what's most important, learn when it's time to surface. If it was an impossible mission, all the spearfishers would be dead. How can you say that a "dynamic" at 15 meters is more dangerous than a "dynamic" down to 90+ meters and up again? How can you say that training in a 15 meter cube can be more dangerous than reaching 50+ meters with nothing more than a rubber boat and a rope? I guess we all should know how things are: little money, little safety.


Joefox

 

[DeepThought]

We did understand correctly!

Originally posted by joefox
"Regarding athetes of CMAS Federation taking part to competitions organized outside the control of CMAS, we make clear that competitions not included in CMAS calendar of events are NOT recognized by CMAS. As a result of this, these events don't offer protection against any personal or strict responsibility and their result cannot be validated by CMAS. Also, the athetes who take part to non recognized competitions will be reported to Bureau Executif for the consequent actions".

Example: if Natalia Molchanova goes to Cyprus or to another non official international competition and someone report this to CMAS, she won't be able to go to the CMAS WC and/orthe European Champ in 2005. The Team of Russia will still be able to go, but not her. This will affects only those willing to compete in CMAS comps with their official National Team inside their federation, not the others. Once again: if you like constant ballast, you must know that CMAS only recognize World Records, they don't organize competitions.

Can Joefox, or anybody affiliated with CMAS can try to justify that awful rule?!?

 

[Adrian]

Michael,
The only possible justification I could think of is that CMAS insists on keeping their athletes "close to the bosom" and away from organizations that are percieved as potentially more dangerous in terms of safety. But this is off the top of my head and I'm ready to be corrected. I wouldn't agree with this justification though.

Regarding this point, I can understand if a private organization (whether I agree or not) decides to have such an exclusivity clause and enforce it by kicking out athletes that assist other organization's competitions. It's a private organization and basically has the right to call it as it wants because nobody is obliged to join.

But I don't see CMAS as a private organization if it's an official world federation. To me (and correct me if I'm wrong) CMAS is a PUBLIC organization appointed and supported by governments.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the constitutional rights of freedivers are being stepped on no matter how good the intentions may (or may not) be. It would be very interesting to take this to the European Courts for an opinion.

I am intersted in knowing who or what organization CMAS is held accountable to.

I personally feel that nobody has the right to interfere with what anybody does in their own time. I just can't see how I as a CMAS federated freediver could affect CMAS negatively if I compete in AIDA competitions for example. There is a non-sequitur there as large as a cow staring at me in the face! What to do with it?

Giorgio, see if with your connections you can find out the rationale behind this exclusion rule. Maybe it will help clear up the confusion, or fan the flames even more!

Give unto CMAS what is of CMAS but please let me freedive and compete with whom I want!

Adrian

 

[laminar]

Jurisdiction

Hi Joefox and Will,

What I find interesting in this debate and 'fact-finding' is the question of authority.

What is the legal premise for CMAS deciding whether or not another freediving organization is in violation of its (CMAS') regulations/statutes on competitions and use of certain terms like "world championships?" Is it based on international law? IOC regulations? What?

It's a little difficult to sort out the main issue in this thread, but to me it seems like CMAS's position here is: "we were here first, we're bigger and we have the Olympic connection." Am I misunderstanding you?

I think if CMAS wants to disqualify its athletes from its own competitions for competing outside of CMAS or force athletes to choose between AIDA/FREE and CMAS--that's its prerogative (it's too bad, but up to CMAS).

But what I don't follow is CMAS telling other organizations like AIDA and FREE that they cannot organize a "World Championships." On what basis can CMAS make this claim?

Please explain.

Thanks,

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

 

[efattah]

More importantly, this August there is an AIDA freediving world championship. There is nothing CMAS can do to stop it from being called a world championship.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Will]

It would appear that they think they can...
2.1.1. Only CMAS has the right to organise World, Zone and Continental Championships and CMAS apnoea
competitions. "World, Zone, Continental" and "CMAS" words cannot be associated with any apnoea
competition without the agreement of CMAS.
However the loophole is that Vancouver will hold the Freediving World Championship, rather than the Apnea World Championship. Since CMAS has nothing to do with Freediving and doesn't claim ownership of the word, they cannot complain about the comp.

Also by not prohibiting samba CMAS is actually encouraging athletes to push right to the edge of blackout (or even past it if you are capable of surfacing and handing over a baton unconscious, as some people would be). This is the other side of the stick to AIDA's subjective judging of Samba, and completely discredits their pretense of making apnea safer.

 

[joefox]

Ok, last post in this thread: CMAS is recognized by IOC and national institutions, only federations recognized by their country and their national OC can be affiliated.

@Adrian: you completely miss the point. CMAS doesn't tell you what to do in your spear time, they just tell what you cannot do if you want to play their game. Same story in every ohter sport: dura lex, sed lex. Another example: doping test => the test says you smoked marijuana => 2 year disqualification.
Right? Wrong? SPORT RULES.


Most of you only ask questions and judge people and rules, but no one answers my questions.

Some time ago, I asked how I can organize an AIDA comp in Italy without breaking the law, no one answered.

I said "little money, little safety", no one has anything to say.

I ask you how can you consider a dynamic in 15 meters more dangerous than a dynamic down to 90+ meters, no reponse.

That's ridiculos!

You want to call AIDA World Championship? You can call it what you like, even Universe Championship..... but AIDA Board should know what I mean. They thought they would become the "world governing body" this sport and perhaps force CMAS to cooperate or find an agreement.... they didn't realize that CMAS relates only to federations, govenements and national olympic commettee. Fot the CMAS, IOC and national institutions, AIDA doesn't even exists. Prove me wrong if you can.

When Chapouis wrote the letter "Don't go to stupid CMAS comps" it was allright, if CMAS does the same thing with different power and consequences there's a new Hitler in town. Strange world, isn't it?

I want to make clear that I'm NOT CMAS, I'm just a journalist.
If you have questions you know where to find me, tell me who you are and who you represent, and I'll try to get answers from CMAS.

Joefox

 

[Adrian]

Giorgio,
Using drugs in sports is not acceptable to me because I understand the negative and unethical consequences.

I do not understand CMAS rationale for their exclusion policy and I would like to because I like things to make sense. They may have a perfectly valid reason but it seems you don't know and can't tell us because you are not answering this question.

The fact that someone tells me what I can't do is just the other side of the coin. Negative action is action in itself.

I am a normal, garden variety, Spanish freediver with no political agenda. I just want to enjoy the best of both worlds, enjoy what CMAS and AIDA and others have to offer.

Life is simple.

regards,
Adrian

 

[fpernett]

Originally posted by joefox
I ask you how can you consider a dynamic in 15 meters more dangerous than a dynamic down to 90+ meters, no reponse.

Sorry fella but you miss the basics maths, JB is a 90 meters dynamic if you complete al the circuit = 15 meters down, 60 meters the square and 15 meters going up. I f you make 2 squares is 150 meters, and 3 squares is 210 meters. Most of the time at 2.5 ATA. Very safe

 

[joefox]

Sorry Pernett, it's you missing the basics.
Safe is a sport where athletes and safety scuba divers don't risk their lives. Are you implying that scuba at -90+ is safe?
What about eardrum problems? What about lung overstretching?
What about scuba divers at the bottom? What about training?

I love CB, but only a few in this world can organize safe comps. There are not many Howard Jones outta there, are they?

Now answer my questions, please. I'm still waiting for someone who can elight me.

Adrian: we'll soon have all the info published on our magazine. If you're interested in understanding how CMAS works, stay tuned.
It's impossible for me to answer more questions here. It's not the right place to debate, English it's not my language, and it's really tiring for me to write down answers.

Joefox

 

[donmoore]

Just a few observations I have on what was said justifying the safety of Jump Blue over cb. Joefox, I understand it’s hard for you to communicate in English, so don’t feel pressured to respond. We won’t assume a non-response means anything.

"When you go down, your heart pumps blood in your lungs to compensate the pressure increasing. During the ascent, the heart pumps the blood out of the lungs, while the air volume comes back to its initial state..... but if your ascending speed is too high then your heart cannot compensate the air volume increasing, and your lungs get abnormally extended. Then you spit blood.”

It is only the plasma of the blood that goes into the lungs when a person dives deeper than the compression of their lung reserve capacity. This is hardly dangerous. The rate of ascent in freediving usually is too fast for all the plasma to absorb back in the blood stream, but the remaining amount is hardly enough to cause an air pressure increase capable of causing an embolism. Just a simple partial exhale in the last 5 meters, would be more than enough to prevent this, which is what most deep divers do anyway so their first surface breath can be an inhale. The remaining plasma in the lungs on surfacing from a deep dive is usually absorbed back into the blood stream in about 30 minutes.

Red blood cells in the lungs verses plasma is a more serious problem. If I remember right, plasma is 70 times more soluble than red blood cells so it can go in and out of the lungs pretty easy. I believe divers experiencing spitting red blood is unusually a blood vessel break from over stretching (from not enough recent depth pressure practice), or a sinus, ear, etc.. It’s not from the natural draw of plasma in the lungs to relieve the negative pressure in the reserve capacity.

The reason some deep spearos may have experience a problem is because they do repetitive dives without time for the plasma to dissipate. There are very few spearos capable of diving deep enough repetitively to do this, but in the few that can, their lung volume and gas exchange ability in later dives would be greatly diminished. Competitive freedivers would not experience this, because they only do one deep dive a day.

“How can you say that a "dynamic" at 15 meters is more dangerous than a "dynamic" down to 90+ meters and up again?”

Here is one way it could be more dangerous. In down an up, all though safety in meets and record attempts is provided for the whole distance, in 99% of the time, its only in the last 15 meters does a problem ever occur. This is where a blackout or loss of motor control happens. A safety freediver can meet a returning diver at this level and be able to provide immediate assistance and return them quickly to the surface. Faster than a scuba diver can.

Jump Blue encourages black outs at 15 meters by divers putting forth a lot of energy swimming distance at that depth. In practice if a diver blacks out how is he going to be saved? Is the spotter going to swim around the square on the top? Even then, the diver gets to be blacked out on the bottom until the spotter can dive 15 meters to him. The diver has no upward momentum as he would in deep diving so the job of bringing him to the surface is much harder. The bottom line is the diver is going to be blacked out in the water for too long. The longer the time, the greater the likely hood of damage.

Even if the spotter has scuba, he isn’t going to be able to stay up with a streamline freediver going around the square, so there will be a lag in him getting to the diver, then you have the slow ascent problems of a scuba diver. You could have several scuba divers all around the square, which is probably the case in competition, but you still have the slow ascent problem.

I would feel safer doing depth dive practice with a counter balance system and a safety freediver than Jump Blue. I would also rather go to a static and dynamic only competition than be encouraged to practice something as unsafe Jump Blue. With the popularity of tech diving growing due to a huge increase in recreational rebreathers, etc., I think there are going to be enough meets capable of putting on safe deep diving for a long-time.

I see the logic used in trying to come up with a safer alternative to deep diving, but I don't think Jump Blue has done this.
My thoughts,
don

 

[alastair]

Ciao Giorgio,

I've taken part in a number of Apnea Academy events (you were also at some of them!) and they have all been friendly, safe and fun. They have all been announced as 'international' events, although I only ever saw a handful of non Italians .

The level was generally extremely high, with plenty of 70m CWs, 6 minute statics and 150m dynamics.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that many of the well known, dedicated and likeable Italian divers participating in these comps were subsequently dropped from the Italian team. Certainly my friend who was recently brought into the team was warned against any further contact with AA.

I find this extremely sad, although I know that the national team is supported very well by FIPSAS - with well organized training camps, dietary regimes and free / discounted equipment, and I can somehow understand the desire to protect their investment.

Anyway, with many of the top italian names now out of FIPSAS, we may see more of them competing in AIDA comps - no?!

Al