The situation in Italy

[Will]

Hi Giorgio, here are some answers to your questions,

For the CMAS, IOC and national institutions, AIDA doesn't even exists. Prove me wrong if you can.

This is very true. However it is also true that for most apneists (especially the talented ones) CMAS doesn't exist. What is worth more: an official title or public opinion and following? I believe the latter.

Some time ago, I asked how I can organize an AIDA comp in Italy without breaking the law, no one answered.

Most of us aren't cognizant of Italian law, so this is a difficult question. In another thread you mention that even if freedivers sign a disclaimer before entering a competition this document is no more than 'toilet paper,' and the organiser is still liable if anything happens to the athletes. If this is the case for 'non-official' competitions then I guess you cannot organise a legal AIDA competition in Italy, although I believe this is a fault of the legislature itself.

I said "little money, little safety", no one has anything to say.

All organisations have required safety standards. If you want to organise a competition with FREE then you must conform to their requirements for security. So it is more a case of "little money, no comp."

I ask you how can you consider a dynamic in 15 meters more dangerous than a dynamic down to 90+ meters, no reponse.

Don Moore has answered this question admirably.

Se voleste, potreste scrivere risposte in italiano e le tradurrei io. (Vedete che il mio italiano scritto non è un granche, ma vi assicuro che posso leggere e capire perfectamente). Comunque il vostro inglese è molto forte e apprezziamo il tempo che avete dato per scriverci qui.

 

[fpernett]

Originally posted by joefox
Sorry Pernett, it's you missing the basics.
Safe is a sport where athletes and safety scuba divers don't risk their lives. Are you implying that scuba at -90+ is safe?
What about eardrum problems? What about lung overstretching?
What about scuba divers at the bottom? What about training?

I'm not implying nothing. I said that a Dynamic of 210 meters, mainly at 15 meters is far away from being 100% safe. But maybe if the athetes going for more than 2 circuits get banned, the JB will be safer.
Giorgio, I think that nobody can enlight you, because you are taking this to a personal level.

Nobody said that a 90 CB dive is like a park walk. It's a superb achievement, with big safety issues. And has been done safely, unless you have stat that I ignore (only of CB train or competition dives).
Nothing is 100% safe, what about car accidentes, airplane accidents, etc. Easy let's ban the use of cars and planes.
We all know the physiological problems involved in freediving, by the way lung overstretching is not a problem at depht, it's a problem associated with packing, and maybe and ascent problem in asmathics or people with mucus plugs in bronchioles.
Ear problems?, You can have it even in 10 meters of depht, and remember Herbert in Cyprus, he return to surface (and BO) but still alive.
When we are approaching to danger zones, we need to be more strict in safety rules and research about the real problems.
I don't care if CMAS ban CB diving, I'll always train for it. The ostrich attitude of hiding the head, will not make our sport safer

 

[joefox]

Molto rapidamente, approfitto della gentilezza di Will per rispondere in modo chiaro a molte osservazioni.

Inizio da Don Moore: vedi, forse dovresti leggere qualche testo prima di scrivere certe cose. Non sono un medico, ma ho parlato con il Professor Malpieri dell'Università di Perugia, e probabilmente verrà lui qui a scrivere un post in risposta alle tue affermazioni. In quanto scrivi, ci sono spiegazioni incomprensibili: come fai a parlare di plasma, esistono forse dei filtri al livello organico in grado di separare il plasma dalla parte cellulare del sangue? I globuri rossi non sono solubili, essi trasportano ossigeno ed anidride carbonica, rispettivamente, verso muscoli e polmoni, e scambiano i gras grazie al ferro.... come fanno ad essere solubili?

Il Professor Malpieri dell'Università di Perugia ha osservato che il Blood-shift dura fino a 12 ore dopo la riemersione.

Le consiglio la lettura di alcuni libri:

Bennet PB, Elliot DH. The physiology and Medicine of diving (4.ª ed.). Londres: Baillière Tindall, 1993

Rodermacher P. Nitrogen tensions in braquial vein blood of Korean ama divers. J Appl Physiol 1992; 73: 2.592-2.595.


Tutte le informazioni sulla sovradistensione polmonare nell'apneista sono contenute in questa relazione del Prof. Malpieri: http://www.scienzapnea.org/Relazioni/Malpieri/index.htm

Per quanto riguarda i pescatori in apnea c'è il problema del Taravana, che mi pare molto diverso da quello della sovradistensione.

Per quanto riguarda il discorso del JB, vi garantisco che non c'è alcuna questione personale. Semplicemente, da appassionato non capisco come si possano fare certe affermazioni e come non si riesca a vedere la differenza sostanziale tra sport ufficiale e altre attività. La CMAS deve stilare regolamenti nel rispetto di regole e standard, e si armonizza con le indicazioni dell'IOC. I sommozzatori sportivi CMAS possono immergersi solo fino a 40 metri, pertanto è virtualmente impossibile per la CMAS organizzare gare con assistenza a profondità inferiori.

Identificare il pericolo delle gare di apnea con la sincope è poco serio: se si spinge al limite l'apnea si va sempre incontro alla sincope. Nella statica, nella dinamica, nell'assetto costante, nel JB. Il problema non è la sincope in sé, che dipende sempre dall'apneista, ma come prestare assistenza a questi atleti, cioé come garantire un loro pronto recupero e l'assistenza medica in tempi rapidissimi. Mi chiedo come si possa affermare seriamente che nell'assetto costante il recupero possa avvenire con più facilità e velocità! L'unica spiegazione è che non si è mai vista una gara di JB!
Nel JB ci sono assistenti di superficie in apnea e assistenti scuba al centro del cubo: se un atleta va in sincope (io ho visto samba e sincope in superficie, niente sul fondo!) viene recuperato in pochi secondi. Organizzare un allenamento o una gara con assistenza sul fondo a 15 metri è facile per qualunque federazione, possibile che non vediate quanto sia diverso organizzare una gara di costante? Perché le gare di costante sono così poche? In Croazia, ad esempio, ne facevano poche per questione di soldi! In ITalia, l'anno scorso ce n'erano 4, quest'anno 2... è uno sport in crescita? Accessibile a tutti? Sicuro? Di facile organizzazione? Nel JB, che qualcuno vuole indicare come più pericoloso, l'atleta deve imparare a riconoscere ed interpretare le sensazioni del corpo durante un'azione dinamica a 15 metri di profondità, una cosa non solo possibile, ma auspicabile per tutti. Imparare a conoscere il proprio corpo ed i segnali che ci invia durante l'apnea è sempre importante, perché aumenta la consapevolezza e la sicurezza dell'immersione: nel JB si può fare, così come si fa nel costante. Cambiano i segnali, cambiano le sensazioni (le contrazioni sono molto più soft, ovviamente), ma la consapevolezza è sempre la stessa. Senza consapevolezza si va in sincope sempre, in ogni disciplina. E adesso veniamo al costante: vedete, amici, il sistema hook and forget potrebbe non risolvere il problema dell'assistenza all'apneista che incorre in un problema durante un'immersione profonda! A parte il fatto che comunque permane un pericolo per gli assistenti ARA (scuba divers) che stanno a 60, 70, 80, 90+ metri, mi spiegate come farebbe un apneista incosciente o in sincope ad effettuare la "Manovra Malpieri" e prevenire una sovradistensione polmonare?

Con l'introduzione del JB la CMAS ha dato all'apnea il visto per l'ingresso nel mondo sportivo, ma non ha tolto nulla di quello che c'era prima. Chi vuola fare gare AIDA non ha nulla di cui preoccuparsi, semplicemente deve continuare a fare quello che ha sempre fatto. Chi considera il JB una cazzata non deve fare altro che ignorare la CMAS, non ha bisogno di offendere quegli apneisti che approfittano, per varie ragioni, di questa nuova opportunità. Oltretutto, come ho già detto, uno sport che non garantisce pari opportunità di accesso diventa solo uno strumento di marketing per chi ha accesso alle risorse economiche: un circo con tanti spettatori e pochi attori, scarsamente credibile.

Vi faccio un esempio: in un paese come l'Italia le società sportive ricevono agevolazioni dal governo, ma per essere considerate "sportive" devono essere riconosciute dal CONI (National Olympic Commettee): vi rendete conto che l'organizzazione AIDA in Italia non sarebbe neanche considerata un'associazione sportiva? E' un problema italiano? Ne siete certi? Far parte della CMAS significa avere precise garanzie quando si organizza una gara:

Io dico che tutto ciò che promuove l'apnea è bene. Se la CMAS coinvolge nazioni che non hanno mai neanche sentito parlare di apnea e che possono attingere da un bacino di pinnatisti di decine di migliaia di atleti, io credo che possa dare un grande contributo alla crescita di questo sport. Il dato di fatto è che l'IOC può riconoscere l'apnea solo tramite la CMAS e che l'AIDA non lo può fare, né ora né mai. La CMAS non ha bisogno dell'AIDA per fare dell'apnea uno sport, non si accorderà mai con chi si non sa portare avanti un dialogo privo di insulti, tirerà dritta per la sua strada con o senza gli apneisti che oggi sono attivi all'interno di AIDA, FREE o altre associazioni. Non gli interessano 400 agonisti, lo capite?

Su chi sia bravo o meno, parlano le misure. L'unica disciplina in comune è l'apnea dinamica, già dall'Europeo vedremo i valori in campo, per il resto ciscuno continui pure a fare quello che crede, possibilmente rispettando le scelte altrui.

Joefox

 

[MassimoMalpieri]

Salve sono Massimo Malpieri,
professore di Medicina Subacquea ed Iperbarica all’Università di Perugia –Italia.
Sono entrato in questo Forum perché ho letto quanto scritto dal Signor Donmoore e debbo correggere alcune sue affermazioni completamente sbagliate.
Con il Blood Shift (BS) arriva nei polmoni una grande quantità di sangue (non plasma, che è il componente liquido del sangue), anche perché l’organismo non ha alcuna possibilità, a livello di nessun organo, di separare il plasma dalle altre componenti (globuli rossi, globuli bianchi, piastrine…); questa separazione può essere effettuata soltanto con particolari apparecchiature e a fini terapeutici (trasfusione di plasma, piastrine….).
Con il BS la quantità di sangue che riempie i vasi sanguigni polmonari può arrivare sino a 2,5 litri, grazie alla grande elasticità dei vasi sanguigni polmonari che possono aumentare le loro dimensioni sino a 10 volte.
E’ chiaro che tutto questo quantitativo di sangue provoca una ipertensione polmonare, perché in seguito all’immersione il cuore rallenta i suoi battiti e non riesce ad eliminare tutto questo sangue durante la risalita; infatti con i nostri studi abbiamo dimostrato (ecocardiografia ed EcocolorDoppler) che il BS permane sino a 12 ore dopo l’emersione (in pescatori subacquei con 5 -6 ore di immersioni continuate) così come permane ipertensione polmonare.
I nostri dati sono pubblicati su questo sito:
www.scienzapnea.org

voglio anche precisare che i globuli rossi non hanno solubilità e che espirare negli ultimi 5 metri è manovra pericolosa perché espone l’apneista al pericolo di sincope per la improvvisa caduta della pressione parziale dell’Ossigeno nel sangue arterioso.
Mi scuso per aver scritto in italiano ma il mio inglese non è perfetto.
Prof. Massimo Malpieri

 

[Adrian]

Folks,
I've found a somewhat helpful online translation website:
http://www.worldlingo.com/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

It covers Italian to English but as with all mechanical translations it's pretty rough and you have to read between the lines.

I'd like to thank Dr. Malpieri for clearing up some confusion I had about what actually goes into the lungs during blood shift. The Malpieri Manouver that is mentioned, is that simply surfacing with the epiglottis opened to make sure the air escapes on the way uip thusly avoiding excessive pressure in the lungs?

Adrian

 

[MassimoMalpieri]

i am sorry,
but my english is not perfectly and it's very difficult for me to translate these physiological aspects of the free diving.
I hope, in the next days, to write in this Forums in English language.
best regards
Massimo Malpieri MD

 

[Will]

translation

Here is Giorgio's post, will do Prof. Malpieri's tomorrow as it is now 2am.
________________________

Very quickly, I will take advantage of Will’s kindness to respond clearly to several comments.

To start with, Don Moore: you see, perhaps you should read some texts before writing certain things. I’m not a doctor, but I have talked with Professor Malpieri of the University of Perugia, who will probably come and write a post to answer your claims. There are incomprehensible explanations in what you write: you speak of plasma as if there are organic filters capable of separating the plasma from the cellular part of the blood? Red blood cells are not soluble – they transport oxygen towards the muscles and carbon dioxide towards the lungs, and exchange gases thanks to iron… how can they be soluble?
Professor Malpieri of the University of Perugia has observed that the Bloodshift lasts as much as 12 hours after surfacing.
I advise you to read the following books:
Bennet PB, Elliot DH. The physiology and Medicine of diving (4.ª ed.). Londres: Baillière Tindall, 1993
Rodermacher P. Nitrogen tensions in brachial vein blood of Korean ama divers. J Appl Physiol 1992; 73: 2.592-2.595.
All the information on pulmonary hypertension in the apneist is contained in this document by Prof. Malpieri:
http://www.scienzapnea.org/Relazioni/Malpieri/index.htm

Concerning the spearfisher, there is the problem of Taravana (don’t know what this word means) that seems to me very different to that of hypertension.
Concerning the case of JB, I assure you that there aren’t any personal disputes. Quite simply, as a passionate apneist I don’t understand how some people can make certain claims, and not see the substantial difference between official sports and other activities. CMAS must write regulations with respect to rules and standards, and conform to the indications of the IOC. CMAS scuba divers cannot descend past 40 meters; therefore it is virtually impossible for CMAS to organize competitions with backup at greater depths.

To identify blackout as being the danger of apnea competitions isn’t serious enough. If you push yourself to the limit you will always come up against the blackout, whether in static, dynamic, constant weight or JB. The problem isn’t the blackout itself, which depends entirely on the apneist, but how to provide backup to these athletes, that is how to guarantee their immediate recovery and medical aid. How can you seriously assert that the recovery can be quicker and easier in constant weight! The only explanation could be that you haven’t seen a JB competition.
In JB there is support from freedivers on the surface and scuba backup at the centre of the cube: if an athlete blacks out (I’ve seen samba and blackout on the surface but nothing on the bottom) they will be recovered in a few seconds. It is easy for any federation to organise training or a competition with backup at 15 meters; maybe you haven’t seen how different it is to organise a constant competition? Why are there so few constant weight competitions? In Croatia for example, they hold few due to the cost. In Italy there were 4 last year and 2 this year… is this a growing sport? Accessible to everybody? Safe? Easy to organise? In JB, which some would say is more dangerous, athletes must learn to recognise and interpret their body’s sensations during a dynamic at 15 meters depth, something that is not only possible but also desirable for everyone.
It is always important to learn to understand the body and the signals it sends during apnea in order to increase awareness and safety during freediving: this is possible in both JB and CW. The signals and sensations change (obviously the contractions are much softer), but the awareness is still the same. Without this awareness you will blackout, whatever the discipline. And now we come to constant weight: you see, friends, the ‘hook and forget’ system might not solve the problem of the freediver who runs into problems during a deep dive. Apart from the fact that it is still a danger for the scuba backup at 60, 70, 80, 90+ meters, can you explain how you could force an unconscious apneist to do the ‘Malpieri manoeuvre’ and prevent a pulmonary hypertension?
With the introduction of Jump Blue CMAS has given apnea a way into world sport, without taking anything away that wasn’t there before. Anyone who wants to participate in AIDA competitions doesn’t have anything to worry about – they can simply continue to do what they have always done. Anyone who thinks of JB as a bunch of ass doesn’t have to do anything but ignore CMAS, they needn’t offend those apneists who, for various reasons, benefit from this new opportunity. Most of all, as I have already mentioned, a sport that doesn’t guarantee equal opportunities will always become a marketing instrument for anyone who has access to the economic resources: a circus with many spectators and few players – scarcely credible.
I’ll give you an example: in a country like Italy the sporting societies receive support from the government, but to be considered ‘sporting’ they have to be recognised by CONI (the National Olympic Committee): do you realise that AIDA wouldn’t even be considered a sport association in Italy? Is this only an Italian problem? Are you sure? To be part of CMAS means having precise guarantees when organising a competition.

I agree that anything that promotes apnea is good. If CMAS involves nations that have never heard of apnea and that can draw from a pool of tens of thousands of fin swimmers, I believe that it can make a great contribution to the growth of the sport. The fact is that the IOC can only recognise apnea through CMAS, and AIDA cannot, and never will be able to do this. CMAS doesn’t need AIDA to make apnea into a sport; it will never agree with an organisation that cannot communicate without insults, and it will make its own way with or without the apneists that are today active within AIDA, FREE or other organisations. They are not interested in 400 competitors, do you understand?
Regarding who is better or worse in terms of performance. The only discipline in common is dynamic apnea, and already in Europe we will see the values in practice. For the rest everyone will continue to do what they believe in, with respect to their own decisions.
Joefox

 

[Will]

OK, here it is now...
________________

Hello, my name is Massimo Malpieri, Professor of diving and hyperbaric medicine at the University of Perugia, Italy. I entered this forum because I read what was written by Mr Donmoore, and I must correct several of his completely erroneous claims. The Blood shift (BS) brings a great quantity of blood to the lungs, not just plasma, which is the liquid component of blood, because the body doesn’t have the capacity in any organ to separate plasma from the other components (red and white blood cells, platelets etc).
The amount of blood that fills pulmonary blood vessels during BS can be as much as 2.5 liters, due to the great elasticity of the pulmonary blood vessels, which can increase their dimensions by a factor of 10.
It is evident that this quantity of blood induces a pulmonary hypertension because during the dive the heart rate slows and this blood isn’t completely drained during the ascent. In fact we have demonstrated in our studies (echo-cardiography and Echo-colour-Doppler) that the BS remains for up to 12 hours after diving (in spearfishers with 5-6 hours of continued diving), and so the pulmonary hypertension will also remain.
Our data is published on this site.
www.scienzapnea.org
I would also like to make clear that red blood cells are insoluble, and that to exhale in the final 5 meters is a dangerous manoeuvre that exposes the apneist to risk of blackout due to the sudden drop in partial pressure of oxygen in arterial blood.
Prof. Massimo Malpieri
__________________
Massimo Malpieri MD
Prof. of Diving and Hyperbaric Medicine
Perugia University - Italy

 

[joefox]

Thank you so much Will for your amazing translation.
I'll try to write in English as much as I can.

Giorgio

 

[donmoore]

Joefox and Dr. Massimo,
You are right in I should have not make such statements as fact without more medical knowledge. It is good to see some actual research on exactly what goes into the lungs and how long it stays.

I want to clarify a few points though. On the exhale before surfacing I said a partial exhale. I believe most deep divers who do this are very aware of the dangers of a large exhale. A diver should always retain some lung volume in the first part of their recovery to keep oxygen partial pressure from falling too low.

As to the safety of jb, Joefox you asked for one response where a jb would more dangerous than a deep dive and I gave you one. You may have not yet seen a blackout in jb at depth, but eventually you probably will. When it happens, whether it’s the scuba diver or the safety freediver they will have to swim to the diver and pull/push the diver quite hard to start get him/her moving up. The diver has no upward momentum. They also will have likely exhaled and thus be quite negatively bouyant. This is just like in dynamics, except the surface spotter there only has a meter or two to go to reach the diver, instead of 15 meters. I have heard that some dynamic competitions even have freediver spotters take turns swimming along side a dynamic diver so if he/her does black out they can recover them even quicker than diving the 1 or 2 meters from the surface.

Also isn’t 15 meters deep enough that a scuba diver who stayed there long enough cannot go directly to the surface? It’s been awhile since I looked at scuba tables.

In my opinion you may have made a few areas safer with jb, but not all of them and some may even be less safe. Like I said, I would personally rather practice low budget deep dives with a counter balance system and freediver spotter than jb. This is not to say I would never give jb a try in a competition with scuba divers, freedivers, a doctor, O2 and other safety requirements in place; but at this point its not something I think I would practice for or try hard in.
don

 

[MassimoMalpieri]

i am very happy that there are this question in a Forums of Freediving because this is good for everybody divers.
Thank you so much everybody.

Prof. Massimo Malpieri

 

[joefox]

Just a quick note: safety tests and simulations in the cube say max time to bring the freediver out is 120 seconds.

Joefox

 

[donmoore]

Thanks Joefox for that info. This is pretty much my concern. In my opinion I believe that 2 minutes for bringing someone to the surface is way too long given the probability increase (also my opinion) that there are going to be many more blackout during the dynamic phase of the dive at 15 meters than deepwater blackouts in cb. Let me just preface all of this as being my opinion. Being underwater after blacking out from low 02 for 2 minutes is bad. The average swimmer, who blacks out at the public pool, probably got hysterical, hyperventilated some, swallowed some water and blackout when there was still plenty of 02 left in their tissues and blood. A freediver who blackouts out has already spent their O2 stores. They can’t afford two minutes without suffering some damage. SaO2% after two minutes from someone who pass out in the 40% range is going to be incredibly low and dangerous, isn’t it?

A good example of a typical blackout in cb is described in Paul Kotik article “Cayman March 25 Update” where Mandy-Rae Cruickshank blacked out. http://www.deeperblue.net/article.php/488 Notice her coach Kirk Krack was face to face with her. Paul also could see her eyes. At 6 meters from the surface on her ascent, with still having ascent momentum, she blacked out. They immediately grabbed her and continuing the ascent which caused her to be at the surface within seconds. Her recovery was fine and in two days she was attempting a world record in static. If she had been underwater for one minute the recovery probably would have been much different.

Although I’m no expert I have experienced black outs twice in static. The first time my spotter did not see the air release, which happened 1 or 2 seconds after the last tap I responded too. By the time he figured out I was out, I had probably been in the water 20 seconds. The next time I was pulled out in about 5 seconds. There was a very noticeable difference in how I felt the rest of the day in the two instances.

To say that a diver should be able to learn their bodies to recognize signals of nearing blackout is a little old school I think, although in spearfishing its about all we have. Where time and distance is objectively measured, one has to realize that body signals are anything but reliable. There are so many variables that can greatly affect the length someone can hold their breath before blacking out that it is impossible to know by feeling what their limit for a given day is. For instance CO2 buildup is the main breathing response. CO2 tolerance can vary greatly depending on things such as recent training, blood acidity, etc.. One of my static black outs happened at less than 80% of my personal best on a day when everything seemed fine. In jb if I blackout out at 80% of my ability would I still be doing the dynamic part at 15 meters? Probably so. In cb, I would be within range of the freediving spotter, headed toward the surface with momentum, and should be back on the surface within 20 seconds.

Although jb does reduce the cost and increase the safety of the gas breathing safety divers I worry that it will cause more problems because of what we just discussed. Here is a possible solution that could help. It seems that one argument for jb is that it more closely simulates what a recreation freediver or spearfisherman does. That is go down to a depth and then travel horizontally with some turns. With that in mind, why don’t you connect the diver to a lanyard that goes to the surface in middle of the cube. You could then either use a counter weight or a spool method to reel them in. Tell the divers its like pulling a float line through the water when spearfishing. There will be some drag, but you could use something small like 300 lbs spectra to reduce it, and it won’t be anymore than a float line. It would also be equal for everyone. You would have to experiment to see what the recovery speed would be and if its worth while.
don

PS Prof. Massimo Malpieri do you have your data published in English anywhere? Your English is way better than my Italian.

 

[joefox]

I don't understand you Don.

I told you the max time = worst case.

In CB worst case takes far more than 2 minutes.

Remember what happened to Ravelo while training for CB records?

Joefox

 

[Will]

Prof. Malpieri, please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I understand regarding BS in pulmonary blood vessels.
As you mentioned, the lung's capillaries are the smallest but stretchiest in the body. Their walls are very thin to allow the diffusion of gases between the capillary and the alveolar space. When they become engorged with blood during the BS and swell to 10 times their normal proportions don't the walls begin to act like a semi-permeable membrane? If this is the case then it would be the smallest molecules - those of the plasma - which are squeezed through the wall first. So at very high pulmonary blood pressure the capillary walls act as a kind of filter that allows small amounts of plasma into the alveolar space, to be coughed up as pink froth.

.

In CB worst case takes far more than 2 minutes.

Once activated, a counter weight system should operate at speeds between 1 - 2 m/s. So a recovery from a deep water blackout at 100m (worst case scenario) shouldn't take longer than a minute and a half. This rescue relies on proper functioning of the counterweight system (just as it relies on competency of a safety diver in a JB blackout). The unconscious apneist won't be able to make the Malpieri manoeuvre but I would also be surprised if it was possible for them to hold all air in the lungs whilst unconscious during the ascent.
I am not familiar with Ravelo's blackout, but I am pretty sure he didn't have a counterweight system.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

With regards to the deep water blackout issue in constant ballast, I believe the safety for the athlete are being hightened severely these years with the introduction of the safety lanyard and various experiments with back up lift systems and/or counter ballast systems for the main rope, all which are designed to quickly surface a freediver. As for the safety for the safety divers, I believe that is a question of correct planning, in accordance with the best of scuba principles, I have seen it work sufficiently.

And with regards to the general philosophy of the constant ballast with all its risks considered, I can't help but compare it to any risk sports out there, car racing, skiing, etc. I don't consider deep freediving to be any different from these games when it comes to the risks, as in the other games the risks can be controlled to a max level.

"Sorry, people. You can no longer run down the mountain on those wooden boards, we don't feel we can accept the risks involved."
It would sound silly, would it not?

I'm going to take a diplomatic chance in writing this: I interpret (but also I realize that I don't know for sure) the whole CMAS policy on deep freediving as that the top politicians have their mind all fixed on scuba diving, thinking of scuba as the only 'real' form of diving, or though some of them may also be all about spearfishing. Initially, these people don't understand the big attraction of deep freediving, and consider it a fool's business only conducted because stupid boys wants to compete about who has the biggest libido (and believe me, it's much more than that). Therefore they chose to completely hold back any development of deep freediving as a competitive sport, 'doing the ostrich' thinking that ignoring it will make it dissappear. The top guys set all their political prestige on this attitude as I have witnessed it, in both international and national CMAS circuits.
Nowadays it seems that deep freediving is getting more and more attention out there in the world, and the top guys are losing face. Then their counter response is not to get into deep freediving, cause that would be admitting an error and that's bad in all politics so no politician will ever do it freely (this has also occurred in AIDA, let's not kid ourselves). Instead, some come up with the Cube, probably based on their love of spearfishing, which is still no good, because the freediving fascination deep down to the core of the game is to find out how deep people can go. In this context, static and dynamic are merely training disciplines. Going deep is the core of freediving, which derive from the core of human nature and no politician can change that, meaning well or not.

It's really, really silly that deep water freediving isn't an integrated part of CMAS, but had to start all over in AIDA et al. My hope is actually that one day AIDA can include all branches in the CMAS umbrella and close the agency down. But for that, the CMAS would probably have to get a new generation of leaders, now that the present ones can't escape the rules of politics and risk of losing face.

I don't really blame anyone. It cannot be any other way.

My thoughts,
Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

 

[donmoore]

Joefox,
What I am saying is if you take the number of blacks out for JB verses the number of black outs in CB, say for a given number of competitors, there will be a larger percent of JBs BO’s close to the max recovery time of 2 minutes verses the cb bo’s. This is not to say most BOs won't still happen at or near the surface, but with the emphasis on length of horizontal travel, I think you will get some there too. Of course this is a prediction and whether you agree with me or not, time will tell.

It is very rare for a diver in competition to BO in CB at depth. I’m not familiar either with Ravelo’s event, but in competition I think the occurrence of deep water BO is zero. A slightly higher possibility is confusion, which if no safety diver could lead to a BO, which can be a problem in training when no deep water safety diver is used, but that is where a counter weight system helps.

I’m not going to get into the politics of exclusion, because I don’t understand it clearly. But as far as safety goes, I think if a meet organizer does not feel they can safely provide CB then they should by all means not. I am all for an alternative in these cases if it can be safer for both the safety divers and the competitor.

When do you Italians sleep?
don

 

[Erik]

Nice to see some reasonable and generally respectful discussion between opposing opinions. Language and lack of non-verbal and para-verbal communication usually make things deteriorate quickly. I know that I respect all of your opinions and credentials.
I admit that I like the idea of the JB comp because it represents actual recreational diving and would require some serious training to begin to push limits safely....especially for non-spearos or hardcore photogs. If we all had to jump into a JB contest today, I think the spearos et al would clean up initially.
But I love deep diving like nothing else in the world. Call me crazy, but I'll dive in zero vis on a 50 metre vertical line all day over doing dynamics at any depth in any environment, given the choice.
One more thing (no offense intended to IOC or fans)....who cares about IOC representation? Freediving is not a spectator sport unless your a serious fanatic to begin with. Ballroom Dancing is supposed to be coming into the Olympics- it's a better spectator sport for the masses- leave the IOC to them.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

 

[MassimoMalpieri]

Originally posted by Will
Prof. Malpieri, please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I understand regarding BS in pulmonary blood vessels.
As you mentioned, the lung's capillaries are the smallest but stretchiest in the body. Their walls are very thin to allow the diffusion of gases between the capillary and the alveolar space. When they become engorged with blood during the BS and swell to 10 times their normal proportions don't the walls begin to act like a semi-permeable membrane? If this is the case then it would be the smallest molecules - those of the plasma - which are squeezed through the wall first. So at very high pulmonary blood pressure the capillary walls act as a kind of filter that allows small amounts of plasma into the alveolar space, to be coughed up as pink froth.

.Once activated, a counter weight system should operate at speeds between 1 - 2 m/s. So a recovery from a deep water blackout at 100m (worst case scenario) shouldn't take longer than a minute and a half. This rescue relies on proper functioning of the counterweight system (just as it relies on competency of a safety diver in a JB blackout). The unconscious apneist won't be able to make the Malpieri manoeuvre but I would also be surprised if it was possible for them to hold all air in the lungs whilst unconscious during the ascent.
I am not familiar with Ravelo's blackout, but I am pretty sure he didn't have a counterweight system.

Grazie Will per la tua domanda, perché serve a chiarire in modo preciso il concetto.
Come detto nel corso della risalita l’aria contenuta negli alveoli polmonari (compressa durante la discesa) si riespande molto rapidamente (un apneista nella risalita può superare la velocità di 100metri/minuto – Rignani Lolli ha raggiunto i 162metri/minuto) creando una pressione elevatissima dentro gli alveoli che blocca qualsiasi tipo di scambio, anzi in alcuni casi c’è passaggio di CO2 dagli alveoli al sangue (fenomeno della samba alla riemersione); è quindi evidente che non vi è la possibilità che il plasma trasudi negli alveoli anche perché in questo caso l’apneista sarebbe colpito da Edema Polmonare Acuto alla riemersione. Posso dire che nel corso delle nostre ricerche abbiamo verificato molti parametri fisiologici sia sull’apparato cardiopolmonare che sulla produzione ormonale e grazie alla tua ottima traduzione invierò su questo sito alcune pubblicazioni sulla fisiologia dell’apnea, se voi tutti siete d’accordo.

Massimo Malpieri MD

 

[joefox]

Erik, I understand your point.

As I told you, it's a choice. Usually when you have a chance to choose it's a good thing, isn't it?

Apnea Magazine is also a sportive club, we like to organize things and we'd like to organize competitions. Well, we cannot organize other than FIPSAS/CMAS comps here, because of Italian law. Sport clubs recognized by CONI, which is the italian "section" of IOC (and also a public institution), must respect the rules of FIPSAS in order to be considered "sportive clubs" and do "sport activities".

Plus, as I told you, there's one thing that I like of sport institutions: if you're good at your sport, you don't need money to train or compete. I guess this point alone should convince everyone: every choice deserve respect. If freedivers don't respect each other, then we do have a problem.

Joefox