The situation in Italy

[joefox]

Ok guys, I think I'm done here.



I talked to Umberto yesterday, he's a freediver.

We talked about this matter...
Do you know what he told his guys of AA? Something like this:

Who wants to do CB, go for AIDA comps. Remember that if you choose this path you won't be able to compete in FIPSAS comps and be selected for the national team; plus you'll have to pay your bills when it's time to compete.
Who wants to compete in FIPSAS comps and be selected for the national team can do that with Apnea Academy Competition. FIPSAS will pay your bills when you go to international comps with the National Team, but you'll have to follow all FIPSAS/CMAS rules and won't be able to do CB or other non CMAS comps.

You know what makes the difference between most of you writing in this thread and him? He doesn't judge who choose CMAS or AIDA, he just care for freediving. You seem to care for YOUR freediving... it's like you think you bough it.

Well guys, you didn't.

Joefox

 

[Adrian]

Guido,
This is debate, and in debate hard qestions get asked and terrirtory gets staked out, people defend their own points of view and sometimes get angry and upset forgetting it's just words on a screen. If we all met we'ld probably get along well together despite our different viewpoints. Let's not forget the human factor and the fact that the world isn't black and white, but all shades of beautiful color.

But all that said, no one has still answered the "why" of the exclusion policy, that's the only bone I have to pick with CMAS, as for the rest, we create our own worlds, we can accept things as they are or we can change them. You quote Umberto but he didn't justify the exclusion policy, he basically just said "take it or leave it depending on what you want." In your conversation with the president of CMAS you could have asked about this, it would have been interesting to read his answer. Is there anyone you know from CMAS who speaks English and is high enough in the organization to speak with authority on the subject to invite them to this forum?

Adrian

 

[tylerz]

Joefox,

You know what makes the difference between most of you writing in this thread and him? He doesn't judge who choose CMAS or AIDA, he just care for freediving. You seem to care for YOUR freediving... it's like you think you bough it.

I told you to quit while your lack of understanding of English still didn't make you sound quite so absurd, but now you have really given people something to totally disregard your statements of ridiculously bad taste. Reading all of this thread, I can not find any statement where somebody JUDGED those who choose to participate in CMAS competitions. If that is your claim, then please recognize that nobody did so in here, and instead you have misinterpretted the arguments. The only difference you can demonstrate in your selected quote of Umberto, is that he is NOT discussing whether he believes the exclusion policy is fair for CMAS to implement, and I would bet he does not think it is fair. So, now you are judging US, and slandering us for being interested towards the concept of large organizations being fair to the communities they stand above.

You also appear to be judging us for being fascinated with the activity of constant ballast diving. You claim that we think of it as OURS!? That is as ridiculous as saying, a speed skaters believes (s)he owns skating because (s)he claims it is unfair to discriminate her from participating in hockey, while also taking part in speed-skating. I think you need to seperate the concepts involved here, one being that of witnessing an unfair discrimination, and two being the activities that people are interested in. They are two seperate concepts and they have only been related because it happens that the discrimination by CMAS, targets one of the activities that people here participate in.

I gave you credit that it is your lack of understanding english accurately, that would allow you to keep misinterpretting the arguments made in this thread, but through your own persistence to repetitively defend yourself and implicate others, you change my mind to credit your lack of effort towards understanding the reasons of opposition.

You have left a bad taste in my mouth, not because of the topic or controversy, but because of your approach to the discussion and those participating.

 

[fpernett]

This only show something.
We must remember why AIDA born.
Many freedivers were doing CB and maybe "informal" competitions, without any rules and scarce safety.
AIDA then create rules and safety standards and formal competitions. AIDA grew up and now is worl wide represented.
That's why CMAS is worried, they do nothing, and now are trying to attack the people that did something.
CB competitition will prevail, no matter how many freedivers get "banned".
No body can kill the human spirit

 

[joefox]

Tyler, you sound quite offensive.
Since you think that even native-english speakers are not always good at "finding the accurate meaning behind statements, and providing unambiguous responses", in my opinion you should proceede more cautiously. Please Re-read Eric Fattah's statement (just forget about them and worry about the REAL WORLD OF FREEDIVING, which doesn't involve CMAS), and remember that this conversation was going on because of my poor English, not your Italian.

Adrian: I agree, if we met we'd probably have something to drink and talk about freediving. Umberto didn't justify the exlusion policy, neither did I!! I could add some details on this matter, because two days ago I talked to Mr Ferrero and I asked many question on this point, but since my English is so poor I prefer to write an article in Italian. Who knows, I might make a mistake and make you understand that I suggested the policy exclusion!



Joefox

 

[Adrian]

Excellent, let us know when you have the article even if it's in Italian.

Adrian

 

[tylerz]

Joefox,

Right I must be extremely offensive... that must explain why I gave you good karma for your initial response to my first post a few days ago, and why I didn't take it away at your extremely negative comments I was referring to in the last post of mine. You still are responding mistakingly to the meaning of most peoples' posts.

 

[alastair]

I hesitate to post on this thread anymore after what happened last night!

I'm eating dinner with a big group of Italian apneists, when suddenly the guy opposite me fixes me with a stare and asks "are you Alastair?".

"Er... yes, how do you know?"

"I am Ciavarella from CMAS and I am reading what you are writing on Deeper Blue"

"Ah..."

Anyway we had a pretty long conversation about this matter and I'm pretty clear on the whole subject now. I hope that Gianfranco doesn't mind if I report parts of the conversation here :

It seems that CMAS is above all a SPORT organization, and perhaps this is where most of the confusion comes from. Whereas all the CMAS guys love the purity of static and the joy of CB, they cannot pretend that it is very good 'sport'. I think that it is difficult to disagree with them on this point. There's nothing quite as amazing as seeing another freediver recovering successfully from a 7 minute static, but it hardly catches the imagination of the uninitiated.

So all the decisions of CMAS with regard to JB originate from their goal to promote freediving as a sport.

It is also clear (and I think Giorgio has said this many times), that if you want to take part in an international CB competition then you can - you just forego your chance of representing your country in CMAS World Championships or the Olymics (should it come to that).

Actually, here it gets a little messy :

1. CMAS will take no action (e.g. a ban) against an athlete unless somebody writes a formal complaint to CMAS. There are already several cases of well known (non Italian) athletes breaking the CMAS rules, but with no formal complaint, nothing will be done. You have to be quite a bastard to write such a complaint I think...

2. You can organize and take part in ANY national competition of ANY kind (including CB) and NOTHING will be done by CMAS.

Again, this all seems pretty harsh from the outside, but it is much easier to accept when your country has an active CMAS-affiliated organization that is organizing regular comps.

Incidentally, the rules on affiliation have recently changed and many countries (like the U.S. I think) that were blocked from CMAS freediving because the only affiliated organization allowed in that country was organizing hockey or rugby, but not freediving are now able to start a new pure freediving CMAS organization.

Anyway, one of the most interesting comments was on the Blue Paper. Apparently the CMAS guys agreed with almost everything that was written in there. They believe it is ridiculous that the Judge has become the focal point of freediving when it should be the diver to interpret the rules and compete within them.

OK, I hope I haven't kicked up another sh&t storm. My intention was only to try and articulate some of the concepts...

Ciao

Al

 

[joefox]

Just a quick note

Gianfranco Ciavarella of CMAS would like to answer to your questions, but he says that the administrators of this Forum banned him. Perhaps Whelan or others of DB can explain, if it is true then I understand why Ciavarella told me that he doesn't get lessons of democracy from people writing on this board.

Joefox

 

[alastair]

Yes, I understood that there was little love lost between this forum and Gianfranco!

Last night was the first time I ever met him, and it was a pleasure, despite the fact that he seemed quite frustrated at my questions! If he wants to comment privately he can email me, or there is always ApneaMagazine...

Giorgio, was I right in what I said, or was I mistaken? There's always a distinct possibility that I misunderstood something.

Ciao

Al

 

[joefox]

No Alastair, I guess you didn't misunderstand anything.
I whish my English was better, so I could be as clear as you are.

Joefox

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Gianfranco Ciavarella of CMAS would like to answer to your questions, but he says that the administrators of this Forum banned him. Perhaps Whelan or others of DB can explain, if it is true then I understand why Ciavarella told me that he doesn't get lessons of democracy from people writing on this board.

I can assure you that Gianfranco has not been banned from this forum. He is most welcome to participate and i'm sure his input would be most appreciated by the members here.

He would need to register to use the forums (like anyone else) and as part of that there is an activation process that must be completed before posting is possible. If he feels he is having trouble he can email me directly at stephan.whelan@deeperblue.net with the username and email address he registered with and i'll check the status of his account.

 

[jrgian]

Miracolo!
Eccomi qua il vostro nemico, lo stupido tiranno capace di ogni tirannia.
Caro Al, spero che tu sia disponibile a tradurre le mie parole.
Sono convinto che nulla potrà cambiare le vostre certezze.
Come sarà mai possibile cambiare, siete o non siete l'apnea?
Il resto non esiste!
L'AIDA esiste? Il CB esiste? Potete fare gare di CB?
Allora cosa è cambiato?
NULLA!
Continuate ad ignorarci e a inseguire il sogno di un'apnea per i ricchi ragazzi occidentali alla ricerca di emozioni nel blu.
Il resto del mondo?
Che vada a cagare, viva la democrazia dello stupido americano di turno.
Gli Stati Uniti d'America sono un grande e Democratico paese peccato che vi siano degli statunitensi idoti.
Quello che scrive in questa discussione si chiama per caso Linndye England?
Vuole insegnare la democrazia portando gli uomini in giro legati alla cintura?
Joefox sin dall'inizio vi ha scritto ciò che è alla base delle decisioni della CMAS e perchè il CIO ha invitato le Federazioni Internazionali a procedere in quel modo.
Le assicurazioni per gli atleti non sono garantite in competizioni non riconosciute.
Il divieto è a tutela degli atleti e se qualcuno ne paga le conseguenze perchè non potrà partecipare alle gare degli amici del surf, PAZIENZA.
Continuate a dire che Joefox non vi risponde ma la verità e che siete voi a non vedere ciò che non vi piace...
Dove erano i SIGNORI della democrazia quando Chapuis mandava, "URBI ET ORBI" l'ordine di boicottaggio?
Dormivate?
Beh, allora continuate a dormire.
Addio!
Gianfranco Ciavarella

 

[MassimoMalpieri]

Mi dispiace ma il mio Inglese non mi consente di comprendere tutti i vostri messaggi, spero che Will torni presto.
saluti a tutti.
Massimo Malpieri

 

[Baur]

Translation anyone?

 

[fpernett]

Doesn't worth the translation effort.
I don't think that insulting people is the best way to improve

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Personally - i'd like to hear Gianfranco's comments in English - it is a free forum for people to express an opinion.

 

[DeepThought]

You can try and use Babel fish.
I couldn't quite get exactly what he is after, but the general theme of the message is well understood, it barely has anything to do with freediving.

 

[tylerz]

It appears after a long-winded burst of hatred towards american democracy and other organizations, that he is suggesting we were already told everything there is to know by Joefox, but since the answers were not appealing we all attempted to pretend ignorance.

Well I can not speak for the rest of you, but Alastair seemed to be the first to emphasize and clarify that CMAS will penalize you for partaking in INTERNATIONAL competitions, yet will have no care if you partake in non-INTERNATIONAL competitions. The second clarity being that nobody is necessarily out hounding who is participating in what. Thanks for that clarification Alastair.

The main question that still lingers in my mind is, what reasoning is used to make the rule that requires forfeiting taking part in international CMAS competitions if you take part in another organization's international competition? Actually that leads me to a second question, what is defined as an international competition? Because a local organization could hold a national competition, but allow international registration, as some AIDA organizations already do!? Would this now be considered an international competition by CMAS?

Geez, well most likely Joefox already answered all my questions, so I will ask if somebody else can share the revelations with me?

Thanks,

Tyler

 

[Baur]

So is the recognised CMAS discipline swimming around a box at 15m from now on and forever!!???? :duh
I fail to see how CMAS will keep athletes in check from attending non-CMAS competitions regardless of the penalty system envisaged.
I think the new system will defeat itself from lack of interest in participation, rather than problems of "democracy" that Gianfranco unnecessarily mentioned.
I dont doubt that CMAS intentions in introducing the changes but as the saying goes you will now the tree by its fruits, and the fruits at the moment are of no use to anyone.

My 2 eurocents

Baur