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The situation in Italy

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
They simply consider CB comps totally UNSAFE.

Safe CB comps are an AIDA problem, not CMAS.

Joefox,

Your response seems to miss the point. You can call/consider/note/claim EVERY activity in the olympics as being UNSAFE! The questions and statements you responded to had nothing to do with that. At some point CMAS looked at the UNSAFE activity of JB and had to deduce whether it could be done in a manner that could be claimed safe for IOC. So it has been pointed out in some posts here, that they have not adequately pursued that same approach to CB. What is adequate? Well who knows, and that is exactly why that response is invalid. Instead it would have been fair to state, "CMAS did not have the desire to determine if CB could be done in a manner that was considered to be at the equivalent safety level as, AT LEAST, the most dangerous of the so-called SAFE activities". That would at least address the point fairly.

I do not believe anybody, especially Joefox, in support of CMAS has answered considerately the lingering question of "How can it be determined fair at the organizational level, to limit what activities a person can take part in, during their time not involved in training/competing?" Claiming that it is the same as limiting drug use, is not a valid comparison as a logician could demonstrate in a proof. I only state this again, because it seems it was the start of this whole thread and where Joefox has suggested other did not answer questions, which most of us thought were obvious and not actually expecting an answer to, this question from the opposition, has not been given the same thorough explanation.

The statement that we have the choice to participate or not has nothing to do with the question either. Let me clarify that one can still acknowledge an injust to others without it particularly affecting themself. If a person finds themself participating in JB prior to discovering anything about the activity of freediving, but later finds a passion for the idea of freediving, they may suddenly be forced to deal with the dilemna of choosing between two things that do not appear to have any logical reason to be mutually exclusive.

This leads me to two final lingering question, that have gone through this thread unanswered. What exactly is the reason CMAS claims their competitors should not participate in other unsanctioned competitions and what disciplinary actions have they decided are due?

Thanks,

Tyler Zetterstrom
 
Did I miss something or are the concepts presented by Prof. Malpieri still not fully in line with concepts presented by others?

It appears it was claimed that blood plasma can not be filtered by the body to seperate amounts of plasma from the other contents/makeup of blood fluid. Yet, the idea has definately been passed around for ages that plasma does enter the lungs specifically without the red blood cells. Prof. Malpieri specifies that the blood arrives whole and intact to the alveoli, which nobody contests, and further expands the vessels of the alveoli. But he does not specifically say that blood plasma does not leak through the walls of the vessels and into the air-space of the lungs. Indirectly he may have intended to oppose that by the statement "...because the body doesn’t have the capacity in any organ...", yet that would still be an assumption on our part since the statement is logically ambiguous.

So hopefully somebody or the professor would find a way to leave us with an unambiguous concept on this, albeit language and differences in degrees of understanding, understandably, make this a valiant effort. ;)

One other point of question regarding this comes from the statement that red blood cells are insoluble. This seem to have been meant to drive an understanding home, as we can see Joefox emphasize the statement, however, the intended relation is totally escaping my mind and comprehension? Can somebody please elaborate on what the original statement was intended to suggest?

Thanks,

Tyler
 
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Alastair, who would be "heavily involved" on which sides?

Yes Giorgio, you are absolutely right. These people are not heavily involved in the decision processes, but are heavily affected by the decisions (on both sides). They are well known figures in Italian freediving, but that's all.

Perhaps I should explain that despite the arguments against, the general feeling from everyone was the same that you are apparently feeling : if we want to play the game then let's accept the rules and shut up. If we don't like it we can always go compete in Nice.

I think the argument will become more interesting next year when the rules kick in. Many people are Static / CB specialists and they will have a tough time.

Al
 
Eric,

what I'm desperately trying to tell you all is that if you want to change CMAS decisions, you must first convince your national federation. Then, your federation will bring your reasons inside the international confederation.

Don't try to convince me, I'm just a journalist.

We're now working on the translation into English of the article by Gianfranco Ciavarella of CMAS where he explains why CMAS cannot accept CB comps. As soon as it's online, I'll let you know.

Joefox
 
Joefox or anybody,
Two questions. Which countries have national CMAS federations? Is the exclusion rule only for the Italy CMAS federations? In other words can athletes from countries other than Italy, at this time, compete in both AIDA and CMAS competitions?
don
 
CMAS has over 110 national federations, including USA, China, Australia, Canada, Brasil, France, Spain, etc (refer to www.cmas2000.org).

The rule is worldwide since CMAS is an international confederation. Italy is just one of the CMAS national federations.

Joefox
 
Originally posted by donmoore
Joefox or anybody,
Two questions. Which countries have national CMAS federations? Is the exclusion rule only for the Italy CMAS federations? In other words can athletes from countries other than Italy, at this time, compete in both AIDA and CMAS competitions?
don

Don,

I believe the USofA (Underwater Society of America) http://www.underwater-society.org is a member of CMAS within the US. However, their definition of 'freediving' seems to be 'spearfishing', which carries over to how they compete rather than the time/depth/distance disciplines we are now used to.

I don't have an answer to your second question as I have never contacted them.

Peter S.
 
Thanks Peter and JoeFox,
I was wondering if the Underwater Society of America was a member of the CMAS.

JoeFox, I read through the Apnea rules on CMAS site you posted and the only thing I could find that could imply to the exclusion rule was 2.3.3 “Each athlete must have CMAS sport license”. I figured the exclusion rules must be explained in the application for a CMAS sport license, but the only thing I could find on the site, in the English version, was under “Miscellaneous”, “Purchase Order”, but I could not click on anything to download a form. My wife says I’m blind, so it’s probably there. Could you point it out to me?

One question I now have is if I joined the UsofA or my club did, so we could send a team to the US Nationals Spearfishing Tournament, would that exclude me from competing in an AIDA Freediving diving tournament (or the other way around). I’m not in hockey, but I know there are several good freedivers in the U.S. that are and members of UsofA and thus CMAS. Are they going to have a conflict if they compete in an AIDA Freediving diving tournament?

The problem is not only the dislike of no CB in CMAS tournaments, but the only tournaments in North America right now are AIDA tournaments. So for us the “ if we want to play the game then let's accept the rules and shut up” may not be a good option if we want to do two a combination of freediving, spearfishing, and hockey.
don


don
 
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Peter,
Thanks, Its the other way that I'm concern with. If competing in an AIDA event would disqualify a person from a spearfishing or hockey competition with the UsofA and CMAS?
Don
:confused:
 
:duh :duh :duh :duh :duh :duh

Guys, it's like you don't read what I write. I've already posted the written words of Mr Ferrero, President of CMAS:

"Regarding athetes of CMAS Federation taking part to competitions organized outside the control of CMAS, we make clear that competitions not included in CMAS calendar of events are NOT recognized by CMAS. As a result of this, these events don't offer protection against any personal or strict responsibility and their result cannot be validated by CMAS. Also, the athetes who take part to non recognized competitions will be reported to Bureau Executif for the consequent actions".

By the end of this year you should find rules on CMAS webiste, at the moment if an athlete is reported to Bureau Executif, then the BE takes action against the athlete.

Yes, Don: if you do hokey or spearfishing and then you go to an AIDA freediving comp you can get the penalty.

Don: your federation/club should start freediving comps. It's up to you, you cannot complain if you wait for others to do that for you.

Joefox
 
Joefox,

Sorry but it is not that we did not already read that, but it is the FACT that there is no explanation in those statements pertaining to what is the consequence! All it states is they will not recognize the event and they can not be liable for protection/safety from that event. EVERYBODY in this thread understands this!! And it has not been questioned since.

However, the final statement:

Also, the athetes who take part to non recognized competitions will be reported to Bureau Executif for the consequent actions

can only be understood unambiguously to mean "THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES" for taking part in the event. It appeared earlier that the consequences might be that the competitor is kicked out of CMAS!? Nobody confirmed this. Is this the case? Are there other consequences? So the ambiguous concept here is still, "What are the consequences of taking part in an apnea event not sanctioned by CMAS?"

The seeming repeat questions by other in this thread are due to the seeming repeat lack of answering the questions accurately for their intended question. As much as we appreciate each other's well formed english and the effort we put towards it, we have to acknowledge that more than language just being words and proper grammar, language is about finding the accurate meaning behind statements, and providing unambiguous responses. And even us native-english speakers are rarely accurate at doing so.

That being said I am still hoping for a response to my posts that I thought were very relevant to your interest in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?postid=424483#post424483
 
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Ok, Tyler, I'll try to be as clear as possible.

What I quoted is the answer of President Ferrero to FIPSAS, which asked CMAS if their athletes could take part to non CMAS comps.

Before that question, the problem wasn't arised. After that, the CMAS BE decided that there was a problem, and that a regulation would be introduced later this year. They all agreed that the answer to FIPSAS should point out that CMAS athletes cannot take part to non CMAS comps.

Now I tell you that if an athlete is reported, he probably won't be kicked out, he will be just penalized (no one knows how, it's up to the BE). Mr Ferrero told me that by the end of this year there will be a clear rule (ie: who takes part to non official comps gets a 2 month/6 month/1 year/1 day disqualification).

I have no interest in hiding information. I'm here to give you information that you can verify for yourself.

Joefox
 
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I can’t remember all the details, but in the 70’s the Amateur Athletic Union had a similar rule where if a track and field athlete competed in a non-sanctioned event, their membership standing could be revoked and they would be prevented from being in the IOC and competing in the Olympics. The great Steve Prefontaine purposely organized a meet in Eugene, Oregon and several world-class athletes attended in deviance of the rule. The rule was changed and the AAU lost some of its power to control athletes.

The U.S.A. is a very contentious society, happy to file lawsuits. It’s also a society where people’s freedom rights are valued highly. Maybe what is needed here is for the CMAS to penalize an American athlete who would then file a lawsuit in the United States were a jury would be sympathetic to the cause. The athlete would probably be well supported financially by the others who felt their rights were being jeopardized too.

No worthwhile argument can be made for the stance the CMAS is taking. Its just power, greed, and corruption.
don
:rcard :rcard
 
Thanks Joefox for that clarification!

Don:

As much as I will probably agree with you that it is wrong for them to rule such a standing, I must state that they may have a "worthwhile" argument. It might be such as to make us laugh at the ridiculousness and absurdity of the rationale they may present in all seriousness. :D So while the argument might be horrible and valueless toward the attempt at being reasonable, it may truly show its value in the arena of human irony.

Disclaimer: By the way, this was but only a joke.
 
Tyler
To clarify something about plasma entering lungs.
The Starling formula Q=K(Phv-Phi)-e(Pov-Poi)
Q is the amount of liquid filtered (plasma)
K is hidraulic conductance (the "capacity" of the membrane to pass of water
Phv is Hydrostatic pressure intravascular
Phi is Hydrostatic pressure in the interstitial tissue
e is the oncotic reflexion coefficient (the "permisibility" of membrane to the pass of macromolecules as albumin)
Pov is the oncotic pressure vascular
Poi is the oncotic pressure interstitial
As you may see, with variations in Phv and Pov is possible that some amount of plasma pass to the insterstitial space. But when is affected K or e, as in shear stress there is massive pass of macromolecules and even cells.
All depends on how severe is affected the pulmonary endothelium, as an example in altitude pulmonary edema, there is stress failure in the endothelium due to extremly high Phv.
Besides the volume filtered the lymphatics also remove liquid from the interstitial tissue.
 
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on the killing fields

Don, very strong language, and I thought you were a mild-mannered sort of guy :) I can understand you are pissed off though. We still haven't recieved an answer or a justification or the CMAS excusion policy because that debate might lead to the "killing fields". These are areas that are very hard to defend, the weak point or Achilles heel of the debate and are generally avoided like the plague by the people who don't want these points raised.

In terms of CB vs JB, this is debateable and there is a safety aspect behind the argument, so one can understand the opposing pont of view whether one agrees with it or not. And Guido pointed out that there are possibilities for change if one wants to plan a campaign and influence the federations to vote for constant weight in competitions. It would take a lot of work, but with a good international campaign hitting all the freedivers and federations at once enough momentum could be built up and the rules changed. If CMAS is a truly democratic institution, it would have to accept change. This area isn't much of a killing field as both sides are pretty arguable/justifyable depending what point of view you take.

However for me the exclusion policy is not only a killing field but a killing swamp! How is this justified, we still don't know despite a flurry of questions asking for the clarification of this point. Is the reason we don't know the answers the possibility that they don't want us to know them? Does it simply boil down to material gain, "protecting their investment" and wanting to have as much control over freediving as possible by cutting off the "roots of freediving" (the freedivers) and making other freediving agencies wither away due to lack of membership? If so, is the curtailing of freedom for material gain justifiable?

Maybe I'm totally on the wrong track here, but you see, I don't know, because when I knock on the door, nobody answers. It would be nice for someone from CMAS to drop by and take these awful thoughts from our minds. However am I going to sleep at night?

These are just questions, questions for clarification. The answer may suprise us all, or may not, but at least it will be an answer and we could proceed to the next step.

Adrian
 
The more this discussion goes on, the less I think CMAS is even worth talking about. Let's just forget about them and worry about the REAL WORLD OF FREEDIVING, which doesn't involve CMAS. I don't plan on ever attending a CMAS event, nor do I know anyone who does!

Besides, I live in North America, which is a continent that the CMAS doesn't acknowledge!

For me JB stands for 'just blackouts.' After all, a jump blue competition is just that; just blackouts.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
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Originally posted by joefox
Yes, Don: if you do hokey or spearfishing and then you go to an AIDA freediving comp you can get the penalty.

what a joke... thats like my my cricket club kicking me out because I play snooker also.

Im going to have to bring this to the attention of the Australian Underwater Federation (CMAS member) as I know of a spearo who dived in an AIDA comp... CB too! Maybe CMAS will come with torches and some rope and we can have ourselves an old fashioned lynching!! :hmm

CMAS = a bad tasteless joke no one gets.
 
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