waterway glide vs. leaderfins hyper

[Evita]

Leather upholstery?

The Official Couch is a BigBlue, medium-soft and velvety. The seating is low cut and has a slight angle for a better glide into it. Cushions are not custom made but still provide a snug fit around lower back and thighs. No soap needed. It is my first and only couch, it is a little worn and scratched but no major tears, so it still works for both Constant Sleeping and Constant No Sleeping. It has cut down on my paces around the living room, particularly when the tv is on, I'd say about 50 in one session ;-)

 

[Mullins]

roflroflrofl

 

[Kars]

LOL It's a nice way to couch freediving terms and freedivers as well, indeed a very practical, helpfull, versetile and lovely couch!

As we like to phrase it in the Netherlands, A good couch in need is a good friend indeed! - We use this way of expressing our graditute for other substances as well .

Kars

 

[Mullins]

How's this for some folding...

 

[monkeyhatfork]

is that your new fin?

 

[Mullins]

Yep, hyperfin

 

[ADR]

Well it's official, your amazing depths are being achieved inspite of your fin instead of as a result of it. Have you posted any of that to Hyperfins and if so what was their response?....right up there with the pics I posted of my Glide fin.

After having my Hyperfin repaired (it arrived with 4 major damage areas and was not the dimensions I had ordered) I have added water guides (see pic) to try and reduce the v-folding. It didnt help unfortunately. The worst part of the v fold is not the tip bend but the fact that it creates a non bending line down the centre of the fin. You only have to try and hold up a piece of paper at one end with and without a fold to see what I mean (pics also attached.)

 

[Kars]

Well Recently I talked to a divebuddy using an old and very flexible Specialfins 'Dolphin' about the folding problem. I got the idea of glueing a broad sailbatten on the upperpart of the back of the fin, in the horizontal direction paralel to the lower edge.

Judging from the great exampleratory Mullins picture, i suggest the batten to fixed just a bit lower than the toes of the footpockeds. With some good sanding I think the added drag of a 3-5mm thick batten will neglegeble, but will keep the otherwise exilent fin bending in right direction even under the pressure of some serious power aplied in the demanding discipline of CW.

I'll hope to receive my hyperfins in a few weeks, just befor I'll go the Berlin pool competition. It's a medium blade, and hopefully they got the footpockedsize right this time arround.
I will test it doing sprints and if any folding appears I'll make the batten reinforcement, well perhabs first use my -cheap- old WaterWay MD1 Long Distance

I'm very much enjoying this thread! Thanks for your imput and insights people!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

Possible someone will hurl virtual objects at me for this - but are we sure some degree of fold is a bad thing?

 

[chrismar]

Possible someone will hurl virtual objects at me for this - but are we sure some degree of fold is a bad thing?

Folding = lateral water/thrust spilling = loss of thrust/efficiency. So assuming you're trying to get the most out of the power that you put into your kicks, yes its a bad thing.

 

[Mullins]

I have a suspicion that the folding may be related to the way the footpockets attach to the blade. As per your picture Andy, as soon as you introduce any lateral flex at all, that's how the blade will bend under load. There is clearly a bit of tension on my blade when it is at rest, and if you want to bend it by hand you need to 'snap' it out of its slight upwards/concave curve. Even if you hold it by the footpockets and wave it up and down it still folds like it's doing in the picture, even with no water pressure involved. I think the footpockets are the culprit....

 

[Mullins]

Just had another play with it... the behaviour of the blade does seem to depend heavily on how you hold/bend the two footpockets. I think a rigid plate between them would go a long way to fixing the folding problem. At the moment they're completely independent of one another.

 

[Kars]

Hi Fonduset, nice to hear you joining the discussion, or rather exploration of the ideal monofin

I heart people say helps to keep your 'tail' centerd and prevents a blade from sliding under the pressure sideways. In a way it becomes forgiving, and allows for less coordination effort.

But for me the feeling of drag with such fins is very distracting, and I think that those 'ear rails', little waterguiding fins paralel to the swimming direction mounted on de outer edges are principally better to have. Serving the same goal to reduce the sliding and allowing for a little less coordination effort.

Kars

 

[Kars]

And Dave I think you got a point about the swimming technique.
At the WC depth in Sharm I discussed with Timo Jattu about technique and monofins. And learned the way the legs are used - keeping the knees together - is important.
There is indeed no rigit connection between those footpockets and a 'anti-folding' reinforcement may be a very good solution.

I wonder if the big monofin companies like Specialfins and Waterway are watching these type of discussions we have here. Though the Freedivermarked may be small, a freediver is generally creative and looking for understanding and improvements with the courage to try new things. Making it an intresting group for experimentation and information feedback gathering.

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

It makes sense and seems obvious - but I wonder if some degree of flex is not appropriate. I have a humble waterway nemo - hard stiffness - and it does not seem to flex sideways at all. Of course the full footpockets are less efficient - which I can feel - particularly during sprints; but they seem very firmly connected on this fin. I don't notice any tendency to side-slip.

 

[Kars]

I find the Nemo's intresting too, with the less rubber and the angle.
But I would love to them with 'classic' WW footpockets, a full footsole support, and a 30 degree angle

Nice pictures!

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

I'd like to try a fin with more angle - also more efficient pockets. I really enjoy using the mono with minimum movement.

 

[ADR]

Dave - There is heavy reinforcing between the footpockets. If you pull them apart, not that I suggest you do as I already I have, you will find a heavy copper plate integrated between and under them. Well the Waterway Glide had one and I had to attach it to the hybrid model I then created (pics in the other thread)

http://forums.deeperblue.net/monofins/75673-who-dares-suggest-reason.html

Fonduset - If I could get a Waterway Glide or Hyperfin with a 30degree footpocket and a fin bend profile like your pics I'd be a very happy freediver. Not the slightest hint of v-bend and under full load - awesome. Unfortunately my waterway glide was horrible and my Hyperfin better but still nothing that great. Lots of money spent and still not the right equipment. :waterwork

 

[Mullins]

If there is a reinforcing plate in there it must be pretty soft, because I can bend it just as easily as the rest of the blade! There is nothing stopping me folding the fin in half by rotating the footpockets away from one another. Well, apart from fear of breaking an expensive fin.

 

[ADR]

Here are a couple of pics of essentially the same fin but with completely different bending properties. The one with the orange on top of the footpockets is Ant William's Hyperfin - an earlier model. The one with the black on top is mine. The orange one does not suffer from v-bend while the black one suffers a lot (similar to the pic dave posted) Footpockets are very similar and blades are the same stiffness although the shape is quite different. The more the 'shoulders' of the fin are cut in the less support the fin has to resist the v bend. You can see the black footpocket fin has much more shoulder cut than the orange. You only have to imagine an extreme side cut to the shoulders to visualise the forces that would cause a v-bend (simple answer is wider fin through the shoulders)

Now if you still are not seeing the difference have a look at the next pic(apologies for the low quality pic) It is in my humble opinion one of the worst blades sitting on top of one of the best. You can see the side cut difference, ignore the tip cut offs as that was just me trying to solve the bending. The thing that really throws me here is that they are both Waterway blades. The one underneath is just superb in its performance and bending profile (model 1 LD) the one on top is the Waterway Glide....or atleast the one they sent me and is horrible.

And my last attempt to really convince you is the Glide footpockets on that original glide black blade v folded like nothing I have seen before whereas now that the same footpockets are on a Model 1 blade there is no v-bend ....of course I have attached another pic of the hybrid fin. Ignore the holes in it as that is the subject of another thread.