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waterway glide vs. leaderfins hyper
- Thread startermonkeyhatfork
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Soo...Has anyone tried a badly bending blade and a good one side to side in some kind of objective measure. Such as maximum distance, depth or speed in sprint?
How big is the difference?
I would also be interested has anyone been in contact with the manufacturer (waterway or hyperfins) and asked if this is how they intended the blade to work?
How big is the difference?
I would also be interested has anyone been in contact with the manufacturer (waterway or hyperfins) and asked if this is how they intended the blade to work?
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I'm with Andy on the folding edges problem, I think it definitely has a lot to do with the shape of the fin and the 'shoulder' part. Apart from the shape, I'm thinking the layering and more important the reinforcement must play a big part too. If you look at a waterway fin you can see the pattern of where there is more fiberglass on top of the normal layers, the ribs that run down the blade and the reinforcement on the shoulder. If you compare a waterway LD1 to a MD1 it's not just the blade thickness that's different, you can see the MD1 has a much longer reinforcement on the shoulder part and different 'ribs'. Would be interesting to see the shape of this reinforcement on the hyper and glidefins, well you would have to rip the wings off to look.:t
So far it seems the bad concave/edge folding problem only happens with the soft fins......
Any one out there got a stiff or medium fin with this problem ?
With the softer fins perhaps some of the monofin makers haven't changed the blade design enough between the soft/medium and stiff models and just add more or less layers for the whole blade. So perhaps the really soft fins need a minimum amount of shoulder thickness of fibreglass to stop getting the bad concave. It could partly explain why Evita seems to have no problems with folding edges having a medium stiff glide fin vs a soft/long distance, the shoulder of the fin would be a a lot stiffer. The long distance/soft fins may only be a small percentage of the fins they sell so maybe they haven't got enough feedback from people ?
It's funny that the humble waterway LD1 has none of the concave problems or bending of the footpockets. It's just a blade with very basic footpockets glued on, in fact the blade itself forms the bottom part of the foopocket. It doesn't need any extra reinforcements apart from what's built into the blade.
Cheers,
Wal
So far it seems the bad concave/edge folding problem only happens with the soft fins......
Any one out there got a stiff or medium fin with this problem ?
With the softer fins perhaps some of the monofin makers haven't changed the blade design enough between the soft/medium and stiff models and just add more or less layers for the whole blade. So perhaps the really soft fins need a minimum amount of shoulder thickness of fibreglass to stop getting the bad concave. It could partly explain why Evita seems to have no problems with folding edges having a medium stiff glide fin vs a soft/long distance, the shoulder of the fin would be a a lot stiffer. The long distance/soft fins may only be a small percentage of the fins they sell so maybe they haven't got enough feedback from people ?
It's funny that the humble waterway LD1 has none of the concave problems or bending of the footpockets. It's just a blade with very basic footpockets glued on, in fact the blade itself forms the bottom part of the foopocket. It doesn't need any extra reinforcements apart from what's built into the blade.
Cheers,
Wal
Jome - yes I have as I train 2-3 times a week with Ant Williams. Half a stroke per 25m difference consistently for me with Ant's Hyper fin compared to mine. 5 with mine and 4.5 with his. That's a 12.5 precent difference. In most sports anything above a couple of percent is worth serious attention.
Waterway seem to be manufacturing the glide with that blade I posted but also some people here have posted pics of their glide blades and they are certainly standard model 1 or 2 blades with decent shoulders and all the funky layering that Walrus was talking about. I suggest that those fins like my Hybrid are bending in an acceptable fashion. Here is a previous pic from Martin of his girlfriends waterway glide fin. Very Very different from what I received and I bet it is a great fin.
Strangely Hyperfins seem to be doing the same. Mine, Daves and BennyBs are big sidecut fins with horrid v-bends whereas Alexey's new fin and Ant's old one are fine with wider shoulders.
This thread of Alexey at the worlds shows a Hyperfin as I would have expected it to look and perform. Alexey, I will pay what it is worth and some for that fin if you can hear me. - seriously http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-equipment/75638-who-freediver.html
...and the pic of Martin's girlfriend's Glide fin (the one with the black blade)
Waterway seem to be manufacturing the glide with that blade I posted but also some people here have posted pics of their glide blades and they are certainly standard model 1 or 2 blades with decent shoulders and all the funky layering that Walrus was talking about. I suggest that those fins like my Hybrid are bending in an acceptable fashion. Here is a previous pic from Martin of his girlfriends waterway glide fin. Very Very different from what I received and I bet it is a great fin.
Strangely Hyperfins seem to be doing the same. Mine, Daves and BennyBs are big sidecut fins with horrid v-bends whereas Alexey's new fin and Ant's old one are fine with wider shoulders.
This thread of Alexey at the worlds shows a Hyperfin as I would have expected it to look and perform. Alexey, I will pay what it is worth and some for that fin if you can hear me. - seriously http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-equipment/75638-who-freediver.html
...and the pic of Martin's girlfriend's Glide fin (the one with the black blade)
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Yes, sorry, I have to retract what I said before. I talked about this with Maria and she feels her glidefin (medium) doing the ear-folding, when she dives CWT, as you can see here Havfruerne » - Konstantvægt
Also, the Leaderfins Hyper Pro I tried last week is a medium, carbon, and it wobbled.
I'll have another go at the comparison and try to get someone to watch it. Maybe find someone with a camera...
I was about to say yep, that's the one we got... but it isn't. There are differences in the layering of the blade, the corners and the reinforcement between the footpockets, and probably more. See pic below. Ours are numbered 269, 270 and 271. Do you know which batch hers is from? Bogdan changes them all the time...
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Ok, that's what I wanted to know. Although I don't think stroke count alone is a very definitive measure. It gives us a good estimate that there is a difference, but I'd still like to see comparsions of max dynamics and even more so from CW and sprint (different fins might require a little different style, but the max result might be very close in the end).
I mean the folding looks bad, yes, but are we talking "tolerable quality" or "utter crap"? Do the other properties of the fin outweigh the effect compared to a less advanced fin?
Also, what effect does technique have? Does the blade fold like that with every diver? I suspect that the already mentioned knee-issue might have some effect...Ie some divers (my self included) tend to spread the knees, which would put tension on the footpockets too. And on this type of fin, they are so protruding so far from the blade, even small tension could cause surprising effects? And I imagine a strong "leg kick" will only make things worse.
Anyway, from what I can gather, the problem does not seem to be so much for the type, but individual fins or batch. Some individuals of the same type/brand fold while others don't. For example my (very soft) Leaderfins Hyper does not, but I've seen fins of the same type that do (even stiffer ones).
I'm no hydrodynamic engineer, so I'd still like to hear Eric Fattah's comment since he's the only one who I've heard defend the v-flex - but he never told us why he thinks so...
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oh dear that looks just like mine. :waterwork
Why does it have to be such a lottery when buying a fin?
I was pointed to this thread in another one where we discussed similar topics. I just wanted to add a small detail: the type of the bending discussed here is not concave (which would be good), it is convex (which is bad for the propulsion).
As I explained in the other thread, and as already mentioned earlier in this thread too, the concave bending (ear bends) pushes water sideways instead of backward, hence a lot of energy gets wasted.
In contrary, at a concave flexing, the resulting bend creates a cavity preventing water from escaping sideways, and pushing so more water backward than a flat blade, hence it would improve the propulsion. But again, that would be the case only if it did not prevent the blade from flexing lengthwise (like in the photos with paper sheets earlier in this thread). That can be achieved only with a good design of the fin: reinforced sides (or arms or wings if you prefer), and a softer, thinner and possibly stretchable center or even a slit. Look at the following photo to see how the resulting concave flex should look like to improve the propulsion against the plain flat flexing common at current monofins (except the ones discussed here, that bend in the wrong way):
Of course, the slit does not need to be left empty. On my mind, much better than a simple slit, is filling it with a stretchy material (profiled rubber foil) just like some bi-fin manufacturers do - for example Mares at the Volo Race fin (but there are some others too). At every kick, it creates a very efficient concave shape with a better efficiency than a flat blade, where much more energy is being lost laterally.
The same principle would apply at a monofin, of course too. You just need to find the right material, geometry, and stiffens (which needs to be variable across and along the blade).
As I explained in the other thread, and as already mentioned earlier in this thread too, the concave bending (ear bends) pushes water sideways instead of backward, hence a lot of energy gets wasted.
In contrary, at a concave flexing, the resulting bend creates a cavity preventing water from escaping sideways, and pushing so more water backward than a flat blade, hence it would improve the propulsion. But again, that would be the case only if it did not prevent the blade from flexing lengthwise (like in the photos with paper sheets earlier in this thread). That can be achieved only with a good design of the fin: reinforced sides (or arms or wings if you prefer), and a softer, thinner and possibly stretchable center or even a slit. Look at the following photo to see how the resulting concave flex should look like to improve the propulsion against the plain flat flexing common at current monofins (except the ones discussed here, that bend in the wrong way):
Of course, the slit does not need to be left empty. On my mind, much better than a simple slit, is filling it with a stretchy material (profiled rubber foil) just like some bi-fin manufacturers do - for example Mares at the Volo Race fin (but there are some others too). At every kick, it creates a very efficient concave shape with a better efficiency than a flat blade, where much more energy is being lost laterally.
I have been studying some of the pictures I have taken of fish and you can see the type of convex flex trux describes. The Rays along the outside of the fin support the edges - it also appears there is a bit more support toward the center - enough to make a little less convexity there - though still some. These fish also have a higher aspect ratio, of course - than a traditional monofin - but less than the lunocet or fish like tuna. It would be interesting to build a fin with a higher aspect - but with re-enforcement along the leading edges and material layered so that it would function as above. You would want it to go slightly convex - more toward the edge and not too much.
By the way I saw some of Japanese diver with a carbon fiber fin that had been cast into a concave shape (concave for the down kick obviously), in the Sharm WC. Can't imagine it working very well though, but looked interesting 
Andy, how about sacrificing another fin for science? Cut out a large chunk in the middle in a v-shape and replace it with a flexible material, maybe reinforce the edges a little...Perhaps put a little split in there as well?
I'd do it if I had an extra fin
Andy, how about sacrificing another fin for science? Cut out a large chunk in the middle in a v-shape and replace it with a flexible material, maybe reinforce the edges a little...Perhaps put a little split in there as well?
I'd do it if I had an extra fin
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Yes, I agree. Although I did not see it, I suspect it may be rather a hindrance because if you have it pre-casted in a concave shape, without the blade being stretchable, the blade loses its lengthwise flexibility (as you can see in ADR's photos with a paper sheet) and rather moves the water downward (at the down kick) instead of backward.By the way I saw some of Japanese diver with a carbon fiber fin that had been cast into a concave shape (concave for the down kick obviously), in the Sharm WC. Can't imagine it working very well though, but looked interesting
evita- how long ago did you get your glide fin? yours looks very similar to the pics of mandy rae at her 88m dive and also some i've seen of carlos costa, but recent pics if seen-including the product section on the waterway site show a blade almost identicle to my ww1 med, wonder if they have made a permanent change? or if they just use model 1 blades if they run short on the other
I got mine in November 2006 and already in December at the WC in Hurghada, Bogdan had brought a new version (slightly shorter blade and full corners). He said that he experimented with the glidefin all the time, and true enough, at Nordic Deep in August last year, I saw yet another version with the dealer there, but I can't tell you how it was different. Being a girl, I only remember that it had a different colour (blue, not pink) ;-) but from now on I will pay more attention to the different layering, position of foot pockets, shoulder reinforcement etc that this thread is bringing up. Interesting!