wooden euro's

[rigdvr]

its come to my attention that many loyal DB members have been posting a little smack on another forum about American guns in general and the superiority of European wooden guns. First of all Im glad you've discovered the virtues of wood. beats the hell out of aluminum or plastic doesnt it...oh yeah, your welcome. We've only been saying that for decades. Second of all, Pontifer, Murat, Shaneshac to be specific, do you all really believe that dribble you posted on the other site? that we americans cant do 1:30 aspettos, arent accurate, only want more power, dont understand ballistics, ect. Get over yourselves. So what you shoot dentex, its the same as stalking a black grouper. Not all the fish are as big and dumb and as plentiful as you think. You think your fish are challenging, go to Hawaii...hands down the smartest fish in the world.

Sorry for posting here but signing up for one more forum isnt something I really felt like doing. In all honesty I was a little disappointed in the familiar names...a very different tune than normal.
Portifer - you admitted you are a newb
Murat - youve been at it what about 3 1/2 years now?
Shane - how many tuna have YOU shot?

instead of playing the superiority game you should understand a little spearfishing history.
your American brother
Mike

 

[Eric Walker]

I would have to agree with Rigdvr on this one. You guys say alot of bad stuff about the guns in Amereica. Look at the pioneers as Miles stated in the other posts. Wood or metal or whatever it is you are shooting does not matter. If you ask me it is the guy shooting the gun. I have seen guys shoot wahoo with pinner guns and seen guys shoot wahoos with big guns. I truly believe it is the experiance behind the trigger. Careful about what you say about other divers in other places unless you have been there to dive with them personally. Also I must say RIFFE guns might not be top of the line but are a pretty damb good work horse of a gun. I just now after five years put teak oil on my gun, and it was not even neccessarry. The gun still shoots straight and is in great shape. If you are particular to a certian gun then fine. Enjoy it. But don not go talk smack about others guns especially if you have not even shot the damb gun yet. WOW, just what if, you took that Riffe Euro out and shot your first yellowfin with it? Have any of you even shot that gun yet? Give the company some credit. They deserve it just as any other company who has made a nice gun deserves. If you don't like it, then don't buy it.
Eric

 

[jimdoe2you]

Wow, .....................I'm shocked!

Did you guys really talk smack about us americans?

Check out our geography! You have to admit, we got one hell of a lot of coastline, and talk about variation! WOW!!! From the cold northeast all the way down to the Caribbean. Don't forget about the west coast and all the boys in Cali, you know, like Jay Riffe. You may also want to give the state of Hawaii a little thought. I'd say Daryl Wong seems to know what he's talking about.

One of the worst things we can do as people are make gross generalizations about things we don't truly know for sure, or make unsubstantiated opinions that make us look foolish once some smart open minded chap sheds a little sunlight on the subject.

I'm sure it was all just a hyped up conversation that got carried away by your pride as Europeans (pride is a good thing).

your american brother
Jim

 

[rigdvr]

more power, more power huh...yall ever heard of freeshafting? This particular style of american hunting is popular in Florida where a one banded gun is used with no shooting line for the ultimate in accuracy...its so accurate that many succesfully stone the majority of their fish. If anything we have been cutting back on power while euro guns are all of a sudden becoming more and more common with 2 bands....

 

[Asturven]

Guys,

I think that everybody is forgetting something. There are specific weapon for each kind of spearfishing and we cannot try to adapt a gun to the conditions that it was not designed. I used to freedive in Spain them in Venezuela and now in the rigs in Texas, and I saw every kind of gun, conditions and different techniques.

In the Mediterranean if you are fishing for Dentices you need long shots for a small target, and the more common Riffe’s do not comply with that and Freeshafting is not an option in 100 - 125 feet of water.

It is no to said who are the best, if the fishes in Hawaii are more difficult to spear or less than the Mediterranean ones. It is not a matter of pride either. This is another subject that can start more discussions.

So after Riffe announces the new Eurogun I think that we all were waiting for something similar to the wooden Euroguns like Totem, Abellan or something similar.

I put the post with the news of the latest Riffe gun, at the beginning some jokes that it was a Trunk and something like that and them the comments went to a discussion between American and Europeans spearguns. It was not the idea, just to inform of something new in the market and check different point of views.

My personal opinion is that is a model to compete in USA with the OMER’s Master America and new Cobra (for the handle positioning) that uses a magnetic rail that was invented in Europe 3 years ago and nobody bought the idea. The rest is just the same that the other Riffe’s like you said excellent wood work, machining and stainless materials.

I do not say that is a bad gun just that everybody was expecting something different, let’s wait and try it.
Like more of you I do not think that the Riffe spearguns are the Best American guns, but they made and still make great guns and a big contribution to the sport in this country.

Cheers

Ivan

 

[Groupermadness]

WoW. Never thought that there would be some real bitchin across the big pond, :ko took it all as a bit of friendly Banter, i Have to agree totaly with Asturven, its just a gun, and use what you feel comfortable with. Bull Crappin about how big and Powerfull mine is over yours will always be there, but lets leave that to the ones who have to have the best of everything because that makes them think there good at the sport they are doing, and continue to use real knowledge and Experience for assistance to forum members and guests, of course you need 3 bands with 280lbs of force on a good strong wooden gun if you want to shoot Big fish, but if you do cave hunting as i do you just dont need that sort of power or wood(no not that kind) its a shame to scratch the crap out of them, a 75-90 cm alloy gun with 19mm single bands is More than suficient to spear 16k grouper here. This is not directed at any one here or elswhere for that matter, its only an opinion and i have had good advice from all persons mentioned and many others.

 

[Marwan]

I havent read the posts on other forums but im sure that no harm nor disrespect to anyone was intended. I think a difference of opinion about a particular gun is normal. To build on Jimdoes's point, we have a big coastline here in egypt as well, we have the med and the red sea, so you can imagine my artillery, i have omer and cressi's for the med and riffe and rabitech for the red sea, that's what american, euro and south africa. Different gun for different condition but all good. I love the tracking of the lighter euro, the great looks,reliability and accuracy of the riffe, and awesome power and tracking of the rabitech.
Cheers everyone

 

[borquaoar]

As Marwan said: "Different guns for different conditions but all good."

 

[stoneshot]

Simply put, different tools to accomplish different jobs. You wouldn't use a 8lb sledge hammer to drive a nail, or a 16 oz hammer to bust up a plaster wall.

I have been building spearguns for off and on for over ten years, I build them fulltime now, and I have built wooden euro style guns and large aluminum barrelled tuna guns, from a 6 lb single bander to a 16 lb (6) 5/8" band monster that recently took a large YF from 18 feet away in Costa Rica. I have even tried to combine euro style and shaping to larger 60 +" wooden guns. Rounding,shaping, and a "flatter" profile can only get you so far when trying to swing that big of a gun underwater I get weary of all the Euro vs. American gun debates, when what it boils down to is situation, and the spearo behing the gun. The rail gun is not some great Euro innovation either, to my knowledge they have been around for quite awhile in states and other parts of the world. Even the humble Aussie Sea Hornet is a "rail" gun. Here is a link to a very old speargun, and please notice that the measurements of the guns components are imperial and not metric,suggesting "American" origins. It sure looks like todays "Euroguns" huh? Link:

http://rocknfish.com/Reef.html

Even some of the smaller species that we hunt here in Florida are on average bigger than alot of the bigger fish that are shot in the Med and Europe. The reason the "Americans" have alot of big "DUMB" fish is that we put into place measures years ago to ensure us that good fortune. The fisheries in Europe and the Mediterranean are extremely lax regarding thier future.


So, what it comes down to my fellow spearos is as one insightful, well respected diver once wrote

"It ain't the gun you shoot Brother, It's the man dropping ya on the rock and the finger pullin the trigger" - kmoose

 

[Erman]

All,

I have been involved in that particular discussion. I have tried to remind those involved about trying the gun and then going for the verdict. To my surprise, a simple request of commonsense had no impact. After some further exchanges, I came to the conclusions which I state below;

a- Many of those has never touched a Riffe or any other American gun, let alone using any...

b- Many has never dove in as challenging enviroments as in the Pacific or Northwest in their lives, and have no idea about how fast and strong ocean going Pelagics are and so forth...

c- There seems to be misconceptions about Riffe increasing the mass of the gun to decrease the recoil, whereas a certain wooden euro touted as the one of the best has nearly twice the mass of an equivalent length C#2.

d- Some of the people participated in that discussion were racing for the top suck up position to a person by putting down American guns and spearos as can be understood by the subject line of the discussion...



Ivan,

Have you ever tried Riffe in Med against dentice ? How did you come up with the conclusion that Riffe can't muster long and accurate shots ? Do you know people with modified tiny Riffe MT#0 can shoot fish very accurately beyond 4-5 meters ?

E

Guys,

I think that everybody is forgetting something. There are specific weapon for each kind of spearfishing and we cannot try to adapt a gun to the conditions that it was not designed. I used to freedive in Spain them in Venezuela and now in the rigs in Texas, and I saw every kind of gun, conditions and different techniques.

In the Mediterranean if you are fishing for Dentices you need long shots for a small target, and the more common Riffe’s do not comply with that and Freeshafting is not an option in 100 - 125 feet of water.

It is no to said who are the best, if the fishes in Hawaii are more difficult to spear or less than the Mediterranean ones. It is not a matter of pride either. This is another subject that can start more discussions.

So after Riffe announces the new Eurogun I think that we all were waiting for something similar to the wooden Euroguns like Totem, Abellan or something similar.

I put the post with the news of the latest Riffe gun, at the beginning some jokes that it was a Trunk and something like that and them the comments went to a discussion between American and Europeans spearguns. It was not the idea, just to inform of something new in the market and check different point of views.

My personal opinion is that is a model to compete in USA with the OMER’s Master America and new Cobra (for the handle positioning) that uses a magnetic rail that was invented in Europe 3 years ago and nobody bought the idea. The rest is just the same that the other Riffe’s like you said excellent wood work, machining and stainless materials.

I do not say that is a bad gun just that everybody was expecting something different, let’s wait and try it.
Like more of you I do not think that the Riffe spearguns are the Best American guns, but they made and still make great guns and a big contribution to the sport in this country.

Cheers

Ivan

 

[miles]

Hiya

Do you know people with modified tiny Riffe MT#0 can shoot fish very accurately beyond 4-5 meters ?

You want tecnical.......wait until Iyadiver starts!!!! He's probably done more testing with his Riffe's than Jay Riffe himself!!

Taking dogtooth tuna's with his modified MT#0!! (which is a 81.2cm gun!!)

 

[stoneshot]

It was really the generalized view that was displayed that really calls to discussion different hunting styles. The reason that more American diver do not practice "aspetto" is because mainly we don't have to. But, that is not to say there aren't divers that can and do practice it on a very regular basis. If you are freediving for Hogfish in Southwest Florida "aspetto" is the best way to spear them. Grouper that are simliar to a Dentice, are generally too deep for all but the best freedivers to reach, but they speared regularly by the freedive spearos.

"Aspetto" is a hunting style that for the most part only works on a few species here in the mainland states. You can not use "aspetto" while hunting pelagics such as King Mackeral,Spanish Mackeral,Wahoo and others. They are surface hunting fish, typically feeding 15 to 20 below the surface of deeper waters. Hawaii's coastal waters have been the breeding grounds for generations of some of the world's best freediving spearos, because of the constant hunting pressure thier fish are very skiddish and longer shots are taken by those spearos.

So, my Mediterranean spearo brethren please do not generalize about situations that you have no experience with, most of you have never held an American speargun much less hunted in our waters with one to even know how it handles.

Most wooden euro style guns would get torn apart on a "riding rig" hooked to a large Amberjack in Louisiana or getting bashed to pieces on some of the jagged wrecks of Panama City.


BTW, "Where can I get a V-8 and have it installed for 1300.00, that is a good deal? It cost me almost 3000.00 the last time I had to replace a 351 in my truck.

Respectfully,

 

[Erman]

BTW, "Where can I get a V-8 and have it installed for 1300.00, that is a good deal? It cost me almost 3000.00 the last time I had to replace a 351 in my truck.

Respectfully,

Well, Socorro, NM. It was 1995, and I was young poor and naive kid . I bought a 84' Delta 88 with excellent Fischer body for $1200, and guess what it was ? a 35X Diesel. Finally, it blew the head-gasket which is common place for Detroit diesels I learned later on.

I pulled the head with help from a dear friend who knows what he is doing, get it tested for cracks etc and replaced the gasket, but never managed to get it starting again. So, I decided to get it converted to a gas 30X. I payed $300 to the local mad mech to get it changed (noone else wanted to touch the beast), and spend about $ 1000 on a 30X engine from Pep Boys (it has been 10 years so perhaps wrong place) which is not best but close to worst in quality. But, i just needed it to pull my U-haul from Socorro, NM to Evanston, Il, which it did nicely. then, sold the car next year to another poor grad student.

E

 

[spaghetti]

ok, that's right: we europeans should not generalize, especially about things we've seen only on photograph: you're absolutely right. But also you americans should not generalize as well. You ask us about amberjacks and tunas: well, a friend of mine took home a 40 kg amberjack with an excalibur 90, another killed a 58 kg tuna with an old cressi apache 100, I've captured big adult groupers with tempest 50 and comanche 60. And I'm not talking about Totem or Master America hi-lights: i mentioned small alluminium ones.
So, for us it's hard to understand why you use such big weapons, as we achieve similar targets with our much more handy, elegant and slim guns...

yours friendly

 

[Memo]

Well, ok i will try to cover up the topic a little bit I tried to stay silent most of the time in other forum and in here upto now but i think it is the time to settle things down. You are totally right about prejudged approach and generalized american spearo profile. I believe there are great hunters in your waters and also great manufacturers, pioneers who initiated some trends which we follow and which we set as bases of development.

The euro-riffe topic which initiated all these discussions started as a tread to have some laugh. But needless to say, i think we went a bit too far in the sarcastic approach and comments became stronger.

It is true that its not the gun but the hunter who lands the fish at the end of the day and obviously what works good for you is the best for you So, i believe it is now your challenge to shoot some nice dentex with riffe guns Erman I will be your number 1 supporter if you try to do so

 

[stoneshot]

ok, that's right: we europeans should not generalize, especially about things we've seen only on photograph: you're absolutely right. But also you americans should not generalize as well. You ask us about amberjacks and tunas: well, a friend of mine took home a 40 kg amberjack with an excalibur 90, another killed a 58 kg tuna with an old cressi apache 100, I've captured big adult groupers with tempest 50 and comanche 60. And I'm not talking about Totem or Master America hi-lights: i mentioned small alluminium ones.
So, for us it's hard to understand why you use such big weapons, as we achieve similar targets with our much more handy, elegant and slim guns...

yours friendly

Respectfully, nowhere in my post is there a generalization of any kind. Everything that was said is based on fact, most of you HAVE never hunted our waters or SHOT a Riffe, or been wrapped around an oil rig by a 80-100 LB AJ. We have triggerfish that would scare the hell out of most europeans, hec, they scare the hell out of me. I have had to replace countless expensive wetsuits because there are chunks taken of them by the little sh*ts. I never said that big fish could not be taken by any eurogun, but honestly very few euroguns could consistantly take very large fish without falling apart. They just are not designed to do it, while the larger more robust "American" timber guns are. Please, do not misunderstand me, I have nothing against Euro guns, but they are just not designed to take the larger fish that the so called "slow tracking American gun" are meant to take. I have sold several guns to Greek spearos, they shot the same type and size of fish that you maybe shooting. I did not design these guns to take 100 lb groupers, 200 lb Yellowfin tuna, or even 15lb Hogfish, they were designed to consistantly take 5 - 10 lb fish. There are huge fish taken every year by single band guns around the world. I will make reference to a fish that was taken by I believe a single band "Americanized" speargun in 423' fsw, freeshaft no less, if you ask Kevin Bruington the maker of that gun, he will probably tell you that his guns were never designed for that!
My point is that you an take large fish with a gun not designed for it, but would you want to risk a once in a lifetime shot with a gun not intendend for the purpose.

Once again, there are tools that are made for a specific purpose, and those that would be better suited for another application.

 

[stoneshot]

Memo,

You as always are the consumate gentleman! Please believe, that in my posts, I meant no disrespect. I just do not like it when anyone is generalized, especially when I am included in that broad spectrum

I would welcome any Med spearos into my home and take them on a few wrecks or reefs here in Florida, and I believe most Florida spearos would back me on that. Because, when it comes down to it, we are aiming to nail dinner!

 

[Memo]

You are always welcome to my waters as well mate I really dont like seeing this kind of "misunderstood and progressed into a discussion" treads... Who knows maybe one day we can shoot a proper movie in which both top euro and american wooden guns are used to land great fish

 

[Asturven]

Erman,

I did not use the Riffe in the Mediterranean but I do here in Texas with the Red Snappers, as well as with, pneumatics, Rob Allens, Spettons,Rabitechs and Wongs and for a fast small target at 6 meters Riffe is not even close of some of the rest.

For me the best American guns are Daryl Wong's spearguns.

That is why I extrapolate to the Dentices in the Mediterraneo.

Cheers

Ivan

 

[stoneshot]

I agree with you Memo, I have shot fish in 8 countries and I have never been in equipment related discussions like I have been on the internet. I went separing with a man in Costa Maya, Mexico, who was using a welding rod as a shaft and a piece of bicycle innertube as a band, and he schooled me on shot placement! I ended up getting the bigger fish of the day, but only because I had more rubber on my gun and a bigger shaft . I would love to got back and spend a week with him, and go out every morning with him, learn to use what he used that day!