world championships 2006

[tylerz]

Geez you guys are making this difficult :ko
My example doesn't matter what you make or many people make, it was an example of two equivalent positions. I could say the same, that many Canadians take two weeks to make the $845.

My example was obviously of a professional. Minimum wage here is like $7 or something. So, if you want to be picky about it, then that puts a Canadian at 3 weeks work.

What is the minimum wage there?

 

[samdive]

think its about £4.50.... but we are getting off topic! I appreciate your points and it would be a nice idea to charge by regional income but I can't see how it could ever really work. And I didn't want the whole world thinking all us Brits have pots of cash - not true for anyone I dive with!!

 

[cebaztian]

I think one aspect could be to ask:

Do we want the organizer to make a buck?
Let´s say the organizer put him/herself up for a six month wage of 5000USD a month?

(I believe there is room for that in the EGYPT budget - my guess)

Or maybe we want the Aida board to demand a championship to be a breakeven event - done professionally but not glamourous.

Maybe breakeven and a 10% overhead.

Freediving will grow with BIG events like IBIZA (not so well organized but everybody was there) - not with small events like VANCOUVER (well organized but not so well attended).

So the atheletes should not be asked to pay for five star hotels or advanced filmcrews e t c

Sebastian
Sweden

PS. 30 countries x 6 athletes x 595 euro = 107100 euros
PS2. Even for a swedish athlete 1100 euros (total cost) will be hard. We will have to send our richest athletes - not our best. And please dont say sponsors - that is practicly impossible.

 

[fpernett]

I think Tyler's post had been one of the most intelligent I read.
He's completely right. It's important to know the country economy. For example the British Medical Journals have all their issues free for low income and middle income economies.
Here is the low income economies:

Afghanistan Haiti Pakistan
Bangladesh India Papua New Guinea
Benin Kenya Rwanda
Bhutan Korea, Dem Rep. Sao Tome and Principe
Burkina Faso Kyrgyz Republic Senegal
Burundi Lao PDR Sierra Leone
Cambodia Lesotho Solomon Islands
Cameroon Liberia Somalia
Central African Republic Madagascar Sudan
Chad Malawi Tajikistan
Comoros Mali Tanzania
Congo, Dem. Rep Mauritania Timor-Leste
Congo, Rep. Moldova Togo
Cote d'Ivoire Mongolia Uganda
Eritrea Mozambique Uzbekistan
Ethiopia Myanmar Vietnam
Gambia, The Nepal Yemen, Rep.
Ghana Nicaragua Zambia
Guinea Niger Zimbabwe
Guinea-Bissau Nigeria

And the lower middle income economies:

Albania El Salvador Namibia
Algeria Fiji Paraguay
Angola Georgia Peru
Armenia Guatemala Philippines
Azerbaijan Guyana Romania
Belarus Honduras Samoa
Bolivia Indonesia Serbia and Montenegro
Bosnia and Herzegovina Iran, Islamic Rep. Sri Lanka
Brazil Iraq Suriname
Bulgaria Jamaica Swaziland
Cape Verde Jordan Syrian Arab Republic
China Kazakhstan Thailand
Colombia Kiribati Tonga
Cuba Macedonia, FYR Tunisia
Djibouti Maldives Turkmenistan
Dominican Republic Marshall Islands Ukraine
Ecuador Micronesia, Fed. Sts. Vanuatu
Egypt, Arab Rep. Morocco West Bank and Gaza

Upper middle income economies:

American Samoa Grenada Poland
Antigua and Barbuda Hungary Russian Federation
Argentina Latvia Seychelles
Barbados Lebanon Slovak Republic
Belize Libya South Africa
Botswana Lithuania St. Kitts and Nevis
Chile Malaysia St. Lucia
Costa Rica Mauritius St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Croatia Mayotte Trinidad and Tobago
Czech Republic Mexico Turkey
Dominica Northern Mariana Islands Uruguay
Equatorial Guinea Oman Venezuela, RB
Estonia Palau
Gabon Panama

I think this issue deserves more analysis.

 

[cebaztian]

Yes there is something very attractive with a gradient in the fees.
Based on Franks list and also traveldistance to the championship.

low income economies: - 50%
lower middle income economies: - 30%
Upper middle income economies: - 10%
Normal: 400 euro (example)
Rich: +10%
Richer: + 30%
Richest: +50% (most of europe, USA, Canada)

DISTANCE
20000+ : -30%
15000-20000km: -15%
10000- 15000km: -5%
5000-10000km: +5%
1000-5000km: +15%
0-1000km: +30%

Examples:
Afganistani: 180euro
Egyptian: 400euro
Swede: 660euro
Canadian:580euro

Seb
Swe

 

[SanSan]

Well thats a nice idea to charge according to the country and distance, but it will newer happen because that who would have to pay more will always say it unfair and so on. And it will again be a big problem for the organizers, so im 100% sure the fee will stay the same for all. There is also another problem with students or the financial differences inside the countries. Well it isn't if the country pays for ur trip. But it that's not in my case. We have to finace it all ourselves. Thank god that Renens isn't that expensive . Damn our country has money only for soccer and skiing...

600€ wow. Thats something I can't afford. Being a student I barely make 500€ a month and I have also have to pay for my expenses... So no team WC for me next year I guess.

 

[Veronika]

Hi,
I think it's not as simple as that. If someone who comes from a "poor" country has more income than someone coming from a "rich" country for whatever reason - which I'm sure isn't too far-fetched - former would still pay less than latter.
So one would have everyone to publish their income and then charge him / her accordingly. I do not think that will ever happen :hmm .

Veronika

 

[samdive]

good point - in our team last year we had a couple of students, a single parent, two people who are British but were not living or working in the UK - how on earth do you work out a fair way of charging them!

Publish their income? their parents income? their partners income?......

 

[efattah]

It doesn't matter if there is an afghani who has $100,000 in the bank. It means, in terms of his society, that he was very successful, so why should he be punished?

 

[fpernett]

Of course there is no simple way, but you must think, as Eric said, in terms of society. I put again the example of British Medical Journals, all the medical journal are free for my country. Maybe I can suscribe to the one i'm interested but most of the physicians in my country can't. So, some rich doctors have free suscription but many poor doctors have access to current medical literature and can do a better practice to their patients. Taking it to Freediving, some Freedivers have the money to travel to World Championships, in fact the national team from my country always was based on the people who has the money to travel, not the best ones. This is more unfair than charging an athlete from a very rich country.
This is one of the claims of CMAS that AIDA Championships are for the people with the money.
It's a matter of stop thinking personally and think globally

 

[Stephan Whelan]

What about other major sports / competitions. What do they do to attract people from all over the world? Amateur Athletics Championships? Swimming Championships? Skiing? Ice Skating? What about CMAS World Championships?

Does anyone have any idea how these are done to be fair on athletes from all over the world? Is it even done (at the moment) in an international team based competition environment?

It's a very interesting discussion folks!

 

[cebaztian]

I very well understand that my Idea (Franks) will not fly.

1) Administrative trouble for the organizer.
2) Income differences within the countries.
3) It produces other unforeseen unfairness.
4) What if only poor countries close by attend - then the organizer can´t cover their expenses.

But it is food for thought.
And if something can be done - it can be done from Aida (the board or the assembly). One could within the assembly propose that The board should overview the budget of any championship and only accept a 10% gain/overhead.

But I stress a again my opinion - better a cheap championship with many athletes than the opposite.

 

[SanSan]

I don't think there are any sports that charge different fees to different competitors of countries. But i'd guess in realy popular sports on the profesional level (like Skiing WCup) they don't charge the competitiors. Thera are always enough visitors to charge and lots of sponsors with big budgets.

I know about the CMAS WC... They charge 800€ this year for the contest in Sicilia so there are only 4 countries that attendet (blegium, turkey, croatia and italy). Well CMAS has its own policy on contests. They always charge incredible sums and then put in a shitty hotel and the organization is almost always poorly done...

 

[Spaniard]

Look at the CMAS organised spearfishing world championships; the British Team ALWAYS struggle to get there especially to the far away destinations and when they do get there, no money in the pot for scouting boats etc whereas the Spanish, French, Italians etc have a huge contingent, have the best boats, stay in the best hotels etc. I understand that even the American team struggle with the financing, so it's not a case of which is the richer country but what importance the country places on, and therefore how it finances, such 'minority' sports.

 

[Monkey Matt]

I think all of the above comments on affordability have some merit and could be discussed at length. However, I do not believe there was a flood of prospective organisers to run the comp. In fact, I think there were just two.
If the Egyptians manage to break even I'm sure they will breathe a sigh of relief.
If you think you can do better for less contact AIDA as they are always looking for Organisers for World Champs.

 

[immerlustig]

interesting arguments there, i have to say. i'd have to add, though, that almost all wc-level freedivers i know, even though they are from a 'rich' country are far from rich themselves.
anyway, all in all thanks for all the infos on expenses involved, most of which i definitely wasn't aware of. still, in my (spectators only) opinion i'd support cebaztians argument of smaller/affordable comp with more athletes participating.

cheers,

roland

ps: is there something like a fund within aida which allows financial support for top freedivers (like a rewarding thing) for all the effort they put into training and making a comp worth attending?

 

[tylerz]

I think it is a distraction to focus on the idea that a poor student, parent, or whatever, would not be satisfied if there was a scaling of fees per country and the rhetorical question of where is the fairness in that for them, is also distracting. It is obvious. The whole point of scaling on a country basis is to promote a country's attendance, which promotes the individuals in those countries to the same potential as another country's individuals. That is the goal as opposed to promoting any individual's participation. If the country is given the equal opportunity to attend, then it will have a relatively equal opportunity to support its individuals, from whatever walk of life they may be. The suggestion about students and other low-income individuals is a global problem and out of the scope of country attendance to the event.

The point is not to make it easy for every person! The point is to give everybody a fair chance as though they were all in the same country. If you are a student, parent, whatever... tough luck... that is your focus, choice, circumstance, and position in your country. That determines what your lifestyle is, in a relatively fair manner for your country. If you are rich in your country then relatively speaking you deserve to be rich which means you pay something easier than others in your country.

However, being born into a country sets the standard for every person within that country. This directly affects the success of the international competition through lowering attendance and the selection. This does not need to be a handicap and in attempting to promote an international event, the best way I can see of having solid attendance is to remove such handicaps. A few of you want to insist you are not rich, as though that has any bearing on this... It does not change the fact that you as a low/middle income person will have a much higher chance and ability to attend one of these events than a person of middle income from many other countries. So, by claiming you are low income in your country does not suddenly make a sob story about attending an event which in other countries the equivalent person as yourself does not even fathom considering the possibility.

So, I hope that seperates most of the distractions from the real value of the intended suggestion.

The other point made that suggested people would say it is unfair to have a scaled system, is no different than currently. Do you think people are not already grumbling that it is unfair they have to pay so much? It would just change who is grumbling, but at least it would be a more honorable approach that is being grumbled at. What you are missing is that the system is already scaled, just not in equality.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[jome]

I guess the most fair system (in the ideal world) would be when no one pays anything and all the money comes from sponsors, ticket sales, beer and hot dog sales, media contracts etc etc. And the athletes, they may actually BE paid

But yeah, in the real world, it's would be a nice idea to give everybody an equal chance...

 

[Longfins]

Stephan,

The organizations you mention raise money in a number of different ways, including collecting a fee from local clubs and charging a fee for copies of rule books. On a broad base that works because the little fees (per person) add up to big money and can lead to sponsorship of big competitions. CMAS alone has a hand in underwater hockey and spearfishing clubs, so you can imagine how much money can be accumulated to do 'Jump Blue' and sponsor athlete attendance when they chose to. Our local scuba clubs belong to an overseeing 'Cencal' organization, which in turns belong to USoA, which is CMAS in the United States. It boggles my mind how many divers contribute to CMAS without knowing it or where their money is going.

Until we have a broad enough base to draw fees like this, and freediving don't have big corporate sponsors to lower the athletes' fees, I suppose people will resort to getting to competitions however they can, rich country or poor country. For example,

http://www.mandy-rae.com/donation.htm

Peter S.