Zelinka System Titanium floating gun on eBay!

[Kodama]

How do you think this Etelis compares to the other ones in terms of quality? It is obviously quite different from the ones mentioned earlier.

 

[popgun pete]

How do you think this Etelis compares to the other ones in terms of quality? It is obviously quite different from the ones mentioned earlier.

I was trying to work that out myself, but my thoughts are the titanium has a slightly different surface finish in terms of not having the burnished appearance of the Bazovsky guns and the handle grip does not have alternative covers, but who cares about that if it fits your hand as is? If I were not already snowed under with guns being examined and tested I would buy it at only 400 bucks, plus the titanium tubing would cost me about that much before I even turned it into a gun!

Must be a special deal as the "Pelengas Store" seller further down the page describes it as a Speargun.shop Present !!!
Length 750 mm
harpoon diameter 7mm
The pneumatic rifle of the Zelinsky system (movable barrel) with active line release, depressurization valve, is made in titanium.

The pneumatic underwater rifle "Zelinka" is intended for underwater hunting for large fish in the seas and fresh water bodies. It is made of modern, lightweight, corrosion-resistant materials, so the service life is almost unlimited.

The gun was developed for underwater hunters of high qualification and enjoys well-deserved popularity in Ukraine and the near abroad.

 

[Kodama]

Do you have any idea about the smoothness and quality of the triggers on these guns? It seems a critical part which is beyond your control on these somewhat more complex mechanisms.

 

[popgun pete]

When you make a gun out of super expensive titanium nothing is left to chance, all parts are made to the highest standards. I have two titanium spearguns, but these “Zelinka” guns float after the shot, so the machining must be top notch to keep the parts light, but strong. Titanium is heavier than aluminium, but lighter than steel and even stronger. It is the ultimate construction metal for spearguns, but in the West such guns as these would be prohibitive to manufacture and then buy. A lot of titanium comes from the former Soviet Union countries, so they are more likely to use it. Here these guns would cost you at least a grand if they were made locally.

 

[popgun pete]

Looks like some price drops here for titanium "Zelinka" guns: https://speargun.shop/speargun/mac, all around 300 bucks.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Here's what looks like a mass produced non-titanium Zelinka-type gun by Pelengas (nice cutaway gun shown at dive show by, whom I think is, Pelengas' boss):


And a teardown video here:

 

[Diving Gecko]

How do you think this Etelis compares to the other ones in terms of quality? It is obviously quite different from the ones mentioned earlier.

Here's a discounted 60cm titanium Etelis for USD 240, which seems to be the same as the non-titanium Pelengas', but don't know if this Ukranian shop will ship internationally:

Титанова рушниця для підводного полювання Етеліс 600 мм, зміщення 15 см, з регулятором - купити в інтернет-магазині KatranGun | Київ, Дніпро і Україна

Замовляйте Титанова рушниця для підводного полювання Етеліс 600 мм, зміщення 15 см, з регулятором за кращими цінами. Повний асортимент спорядження та товарів для туризму, підводного полювання, дайвінгу та альпінізму! Гарантії, знижки, безкоштовна доставка замовлень від 1000 грн | Київ, Дніпро...

katrangun.com.ua

A blog about the gun (scroll to bottom for Ti version) with great pics:

Рушниця Зелінка Етеліс Дмитро Волобуєв

katrangun.com.ua

A few teaser pics from the blog (TONS of great info on that blog about Russian/Ukranian guns in general, I am thrilled I found that place!):

And a teardown video:


Looks pretty well made to me though not with the crazy perfect finish as some of the other guns - e.g. the silver soldering (?) doesn't look as pretty as some of the other guns and there seems to be some marks on the barrel.

Finally, here is a link to that same shop's full selection of Zelinka type guns. Many brands and builders to choose from (I have zero experience nor affiliation with that shop):

Купити Зелінки недорого в інтернет-магазині KatranGun | Київ, Дніпро і Україна

Замовляйте Зелінки. Кращі ціни, гарантії, знижки, допомога з вибором! Безкоштовна доставка туристичного спорядження при замовленні на 1000 грн | Київ, Дніпро, Львів, Харків, Одеса, Кривий Ріг, Запоріжжя, Чернівці, Рівне, Івано-Франківськ, Вінниця

katrangun.com.ua

 

[Diving Gecko]

But How Does It Work...?
I have two simple questions and I may be daft but how does the initial forward movement of the sliding barrel start once the sear has let go of the barrel?
As long as the rear of the barrel is plugged with an o-ring against the pressure in the reservoir, I don't think there's a pressure differential in the axial/length wise direction, right? So, no "air pressure" to push the barrel itself forward as long as the rear is sealed (I think).
Once the trigger is pulled, does the spring loaded seal at the rear also pop the barrel forwards so that the airflow can start?

I chopped the above video a bit to show the sleeve valve function that Pete has described previously and also to show the spring loaded rear seal:



Also, is there any reason why one couldn't put a vacuum muzzle on a Zelinka style gun?

 

[popgun pete]

The rear of the barrel may be plugged, but air pressure in the gun only has to act on a tiny gap which exposes the cross-section of the barrel tubing to blow the barrel forwards and that is what opens it once the trigger is pulled. The sear lever acts on a tab or stop on the barrel tube and when the sear tooth moves out of the way the gun in a sense shoots its inner barrel forwards. That opens the rear valve, air flows into the barrel and drives the piston forwards which propels the spear. As Zelinka guns have a power regulator in the rear and the guns are pumped up by using the inner barrel and sucking air in via the muzzle ports they are not suitable for pneumovacuum gun operation. The odd man out Pelengas Zelinka does not have a power regulator and has a rear hand pump, so it could be given a vacuum muzzle. A vacuum in the inner barrel may put a bit more load on the trigger system as the pressure trying to push the inner barrel forwards would be up by one atmosphere as the front end of the inner barrel tube would no longer be facing ambient pressure.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Safety of a Zelinka Trigger In Case Of A Seal Failure?
I have been thinking about the inherent safety issues of having a valve triggered gun but even though the Zelinka system does have a seal at the end of the barrel, it still has a very effective mechanical sear holding the barrel in place.
If the o-ring fails all of a sudden, there is still the big spring loaded bushing which the o-ring sits on taking up a lot of space and obstructing airflow into the rear of the barrel.
So, perhaps, even with a catastrophic failure of the rear barrel seal, the shaft will just be coming out very slowly without any real danger?
@popgun pete, @tromic and @Jegwan what are your thoughts on this? Do you know if the Zelinka manufacturers or users have tested this?

The Zelinka trigger is one of the most "reverse" triggers we can fit in a pneumatic speargun, hence my newfound interest in it. The Taimen trigger could be positioned quite far back but will likely have more friction. Also, a Zelinka system doesn't need a piston with a metal tail on it so can be made very light and short - which should give much better durability and a bit of efficiency.
The "reverse trigger" nature and the efficiency and durability of the piston makes it an interesting candidate for an optimized, high pressure gun.

 

[popgun pete]

Zelinka guns are expensive to make as there are many more moving parts. Often they have no trigger safety, in fact no safety at all. But what they can do is use the power regulator to restrict the releasing valve opening so that the spear is ejected with little force by throttling the gas flow. If you consider the "Alpha C1" which is a valve operated gun, but not a Zelinka, you can shut the firing valve down so that it cannot open at all and the gun cannot shoot. The Italian valve operated guns the GSD “Dynamic” and “Katiuscia” all had a sliding safety device inside the trigger finger guard space which locked up the trigger.

 

[Jegwan]

Safety of a Zelinka Trigger?
I have been thinking about the inherent safety issues of having a valve triggered gun but even though the Zelinka system does have a seal at the end of the barrel, it still has a very effective mechanical sear holding the barrel in place.
If the o-ring fails all of a sudden, there is still the big spring loaded bushing which the o-ring sits on taking up a lot of space and obstructing airflow into the rear of the barrel.
So, perhaps, even with a catastrophic failure of the rear barrel seal, the shaft will just be coming out very slowly without any real danger?
@popgun pete, @tromic and @Jegwan what are your thoughts on this? Do you know if the Zelinka manufacturers or users have tested this?
The Zelinka trigger is one of the most "reverse" triggers we can fit in a pneumatic speargun, hence my newfound interest in it. The Taimen trigger could be positioned quite far back but will likely have more friction. Also, a Zelinka system doesn't need a piston with a metal tail on it so can be made very light and short - which should give much better durability and a bit of efficiency.
The "reverse trigger" nature and the efficiency and durability of the piston makes it an interesting candidate for an optimized, high pressure gun.

No, I don't have any information about that. I do follow your thoughts about how the regulator could makes the gun more safe.
I have the 600mm version of the Zelinka Mastera Bazovskogo with force control. It's a nice and surprisingly powerful gun. The efficiency of the Zelinka design must be quite high compared to the traditional Italian design with the saw tooth trigger and piston mushroom.
The force control can be set anywhere between full power and minimum power. I'm not sure what reduction the minimum setting on the gun exactly represent. It's still powerfull enough to shoot a fish at close range.

Yes. The trigger pull is soft. The piston is indeed very short and light. It's a nice feature that the Zelinka system makes it possible to take it out for inspection, change, lubrication, or change of seals whiteout dismantling or releasing the pressure of the gun.

Jégwan

 

[Diving Gecko]

Yes, the reason I’m asking all of this is for a one off build of my own. I think I could make it happen if I really wanted to.
The idea of the smooth trigger pull is nice, too. And the easily serviceable piston is definitely a bonus. I also like the active line release at the very end of the gun - though it's not too difficult to make a Predathor type line release interacting with the trigger, either.
As for how “reverse” these triggers are, I think it’s around 70-80mm more than an Italian gun. That’s quite an improvement on a small gun.
About the same can be accomplished by a reverse sear lever, but then you still have the metal mushroom tail on the piston and the added mass of that.

@Jegwan I have been looking for a fluid dynamicist for a while to ask some questions about throttling of air flow. E.g. is the orifice of the barrel (the piston size) the limiting size? Will airflow be throttled if any transfer ports before reaching the piston is any smaller than the surface area of the piston? Or does the compressibility of air mean transfer ports can be smaller and if so, by how much? And also, what if transfer ports are larger in area than the piston, say large intakes in the barrel - is that a wasted effort?
I was thinking you must have a guy at work who could answer these things;-)


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[Jegwan]

The "reverse trigger" nature and the efficiency and durability of the piston makes it an interesting candidate for an optimized, high pressure gun.

Just a little P.S. for you Gecko:
Yes, true, but I believe that a further development of the design on Hydropneumatic guns could be your answer to a "no compromise" really high pressured speargun.

 

[popgun pete]

Some time ago a guy was marketing a cut price Zelinka, I remember we looked at it here and the guy's name started with an "O", may have been "Ott". The gun by repute was not all that successful and was rough around the edges and received a not very positive reception on the Russian forums (but then what does?!). I think that a Zelinka needs to be made by a practised gunsmith or you exactly copy a gun from one of the experts. I had my eye on that Etelis advertised some months back, but spent the money on a couple of other guns when some bargains came up. A floating titanium gun would be nice to have, none of my titanium guns float after the shot.

Found an old reference to OTT, about middle of the page:.http://www.neriam.lt/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=5&thread_id=638&rowstart=40

 

[Diving Gecko]

Just a little P.S. for you Gecko:
Yes, true, but I believe that a further development of the design on Hydropneumatic guns could be your answer to a "no compromise" really high pressured speargun.

Not ready for a hydro yet... but I think a Mirage system gun, perhaps with a Zelinka trigger and vacuum muzzle is doable. Carbon fiber reservoir with a very high handle and possibly with an external surcompressor lever pump instead of pumping with the shaft.
I’ve had this gun in my head for a few years now and as I slowly gain more building and design skills, it’s coming closer.


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[Diving Gecko]

Zelinka guns are expensive to make as there are many more moving parts. Often they have no trigger safety, in fact no safety at all. But what they can do is use the power regulator to restrict the releasing valve opening so that the spear is ejected with little force by throttling the gas flow. If you consider the "Alpha C1" which is a valve operated gun, but not a Zelinka, you can shut the firing valve down so that it cannot open at all and the gun cannot shoot. The Italian valve operated guns the GSD “Dynamic” and “Katiuscia” all had a sliding safety device inside the trigger finger guard space which locked up the trigger.

I don't really care much for a safety as I don't think I could get used to having to keep it on until just before the shot in order to keep the gun safe. So, that's why I am curious as to what happens with valve triggers in the event of sealing issues.
So, in the case of a sudden seal failure on a Zelinka gun I wonder if the shaft will just fizzle out slowly or will it shoot out dangerously fast?

Here are some pics of the spring loaded barrel rear seal:

It seems the springs used are pretty strong, too. And the bushings are a tight fit for the barrel, hence why I am thinking that even if the o-ring was to completely "disappear" perhaps the airflow will still be restricted enough that the shaft wont leave the barrel with a vengeance:

I guess that's one thing the traditional sear hook and mushroom piston has going for it. It seems pretty much intrinsically safe once the sear is hooked in.

As for the power regulator, if years down the road, I actually set out to build or outsource this kind of trigger, I would likely move the regulator control to near the thumb so that it could be adjusted without having to fiddle with two hands on the gun. I know it would be more complicated but it would be a very worthy modification.

 

[Diving Gecko]

Just a little P.S. for you Gecko:
Yes, true, but I believe that a further development of the design on Hydropneumatic guns could be your answer to a "no compromise" really high pressured speargun.

I think Dima used a sliding barrel - Zelinka style trigger in his big tuna gun exactly to get a smooth trigger pull at the high pressure his gun runs.

 

[popgun pete]

The safety on my guns I use for when line wrapping, once the gun is ready to hunt I switch the safety off and it stays that way. When I load any of the Italian rocking sear lever guns I put the safety on as cocking the gun does not move the trigger. In many band guns cocking the mechanism slightly moves the trigger so you cannot put the safety on or it will lock out the relatch.

Low power in a Seabear uses a rather tiny hole in the power regulator, although air can pass around the rotating throttle body as well, so it does not only pass through that tiny hole. I expect an "O" ring leak will allow the spear to trickle out of the Zelinka gun, but a broken "O" ring and you will have a shot in a valve operated gun. I know that the valve operated GSD "Dynamic" will not hold the spear if the releasing valve "O" ring leaks, i.e. when you muzzle load the gun the spear comes straight out again and therefore the gun is unusable. I expect the same applies to a Zelinka.

 

[Diving Gecko]

I did the math for the surface area of the rear face of the shooting barrel.
Say, it's a 12x14mm barrel then the surface area is about 40.9mm².
At e.g. 25bar that's 10.4kgf of force pushing the barrel forwards. But that is when there is no seal on that rear face. I have seen a value of 4-5kgf being quoted on Russian/Ukranian forums as the force being exerted in the loaded position - I guess that makes sense if the o-rings blocks about half the surface of the barrel.
(In a vac muzzled version you can add about 1kgf to that.)

It was informative to do the math for me as I was also worried that the barrel wouldn't move forward very fast or all the way sometimes - but with 10kgf of forward force on it, I don't think that would be an issue - even if there is friction and mass to be taken into account.