2012. started with 12+ who knows what will bring 2013 ;-)

[efattah]

For those curious, Branko's lung volume to body mass ratio is far higher than any diver I have ever heard of. In fact, his lung volume to body mass ratio is so much higher than other top divers that he gains around a 57% performance increase over other record-level divers. During static, for example, my volume:mass ratio is 0.136 L/kg, whereas Branko has 0.213 L/kg, which means that whatever performance I could do, Branko would manage 57% more. Thus taking my static PB and using this ratio, it predicts that Branko could reach nearly 14 minutes, (in theory!) So, using this prediction method, the 12:11 does not seem so crazy.

Therefore in general I would say that in addition to his massive spearfishing training, he also has a physiological advantage.

Of course, if you stretch your lungs over years, and lose as much weight as you can, you can also increase your TLC:mass ratio, but there will be some limit.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the numbers Eric. Interesting perspective. There's something that I'd like you to consider. I've been interested in this mass to lung ratio since Kirk pointed it out to me a few years ago. I don't believe that body fat and maybe even skeletal weight belong in the equation since they consume almost zero O2 during apnea. I like to use lung volume over muscle mass and I even think that there needs to be some adjustment for muscle type. Does that sound dumb to you?

 

[trux]

The 57% higher volume/mass ratio is certainly a great advantage, but I do not think it will lead to the same increase of the breath-hold capacity. The oxygen stored in lungs represents only a part of oxygen available to the body during a breath-hold. Very roughly it may be somewhere around 50%, perhaps even less in average. At huge lungs, it may be a bit more, but still, I believe the advantage should be much smaller than those 57%.

 

[Kars]

Thanks for the numbers Eric. Interesting perspective. There's something that I'd like you to consider. I've been interested in this mass to lung ratio since Kirk pointed it out to me a few years ago. I don't believe that body fat and maybe even skeletal weight belong in the equation since they consume almost zero O2 during apnea. I like to use lung volume over muscle mass and I even think that there needs to be some adjustment for muscle type. Does that sound dumb to you?

Well it does not sound dumb to me - no need to grovel Bill, you both have a very respectable age, static and brain! LOL

I would like to know how much O2 the different tissues of the body consume. I suspect that the brain can consume up to 50% of total O2 consumption. But I like to know the lowest amounts. Ivo just reminded me of the O2 in the circulation (blood), being up to 50%. How can we measure and or estimate this blood volume? Here a 'rough' estimation: http://easycalculation.com/medical/blood-volume.php

It would be cool to do some research of this ratio comparing to pb's

My ratio is: 0,0903 L/KG (6,5L / 72KG), blood volume: 5.32L and pb is 7'.

- Ivo are you taking notes?

 

[efattah]

Hi Guys,

Concerning the volume:mass ratio predicting performance, it works quite well in practice. For example Will T. and I match exactly in terms of static minutes vs. volume:mass.

Sure, you can say the blood stores oxygen. True. But then it gets even way more complicated, since at the end of the apnea the arterial blood is still 50% saturated with O2, while the lungs have around 4% O2, down from 19% at the start. So, you cannot use up all the oxygen in your body.

Sure, bones don't really consume O2, and you can get very detailed in the whole analysis.

What is more important is practical application. The volume:mass ratio seems to work quite well in that respect.

In that respect, if you take
[static apnea PB with samba] * Body Mass / staticTLC = 3800 - 3900 sec*kg/L

If you try this formula you should be able to find your general static limit. The TLC value must be TLC used DURING apnea. In my case I cannot pack to the max during static, so I take my static VC (9.5L) and add approximately 2L residual, for a static volume of 11.5L. The static apnea time should be your PB which should be either samba or just about samba. If you are pulling up way early due to CO2, the formula will not work.

If the formula yields a number around 3300, for example, then you have room for improvement with more training. If your number shows up around 3800-3900, then you are approaching your physiological limit.

Alternatively you can reverse the formula,
Max Static Time (seconds) = 3850*(staticTLC)/BodyMass

If your static time is significantly less than that, you have a lot of room to improve.

 

[nostres]

OMG Oh My God!

You guys are unbelievable, I mean the things You say are crazy therefore You must be crazy (but that's really OK)

Just keep arguing whether it's 50 or 57% of whatever but in meantime THE MAN does another world record without even thinking about Your scientific mumbo jumbo

just my 2 cents

once again congratulations Branko, keep doing what You're doing and don't let the "magic numbers" distract You. What they are trying to say with "%" and "numbers" is Yes, You are skinny as hell but it obviously works for You so do Your best and forget the rest

btw, I would be happy to put the video for You if You want. However STA video should be simple, no editing needed. On Your video description it says it was one of 4 cameras so I hope the remaining 3 were not calculators and can do better than 240p...

 

[trux]

There is a nice calculation of usable oxygen stores in lungs and in blood in the thesis of Peter Lindholm (see below in the quotation box).

In his example he considers a person of 75 kg with the total lung capacity of 12 liters of gas (after packing). He comes to the result of 961 ml of O2 in blood and 1434 ml in lungs. 2395 ml of usable (!) oxygen in total.

The 12 liters is close to what Eric wrote about his TLC after packing. So if we now take another person with the same mass, but 57% bigger lungs, we would get 18.8 liters after packing (I am not sure though whether Branko realy does have so huge lungs). That would give 2251 ml of O2, and together with the same blood O2 volume, the total usable oxygen would be 3212 ml, which is 34% more than at the 12 l guy.

Of course, this is still simplified, because there are many other factors playing a role, so the difference between two persons may be in the end diametrically different, but I hope it helps a bit to see clearer the influence of lung volume on the theoretical BH limit.

We assume that the subject’s weight is 75 kg; with a blood volume corresponding to 8% of body weight (Greger and Bleich 1996) this gives 6.0 liters of blood.

Normal hemoglobin levels in blood range 133-182 g/l (Greger and Bleich 1996). One gram of Hb can carry 1.38 ml O2. We assume a Hb value of 182 throughout the apnea (including any splenic stores of Hb) (Hurford et al. 1990; Schagatay et al. 2001). Blood with a hemoglobin value of 182g/l can carry 251,16 ml O2/l blood. Approximately 25% of the blood volume is arterial blood and 75% venous (Holtz 1996).

Our subject’s lungs have a residual volume of 1.5 l, a vital capacity of 8,5 l and the ability to pack 2 liters. Thus he has a total gas volume of 12 liters BTPS in the lungs. We also assume that he has a high tolerance for CO2 and good ability to survive asphyxia down to PAO2 of 25 mmHg, with a 40% saturation in arterial blood at breaking point.

We consider him to have slow blood flow in muscle, skin etc, and assume a venous saturation of 10% in 25% of the total blood volume. For the rest of the venous blood (50% of total blood) we assume a saturation of 30% at breaking point. We assume hyperventilation before apnea, giving an O2 saturation of 100% and 88% in arterial and venous blood, respectively (personal observation). This will also cause PAO2 to be around 135 mmHg (18.0 kPa) (Ferretti et al. 1991).

Desaturation of arterial blood 100-40=60

Desaturation of venous blood 88-(10*1/3+30*2/3)=88-70/3=88-23=65

Usable Blood stores: ((0.25*60)+(0.75*65))/100*75*0.08*182*1.38= 961 ml O2
Usable Lung stores: 12*0.8259*(135-25)/760 = 1434 ml O2​

@ Kars: you can use the formulas for your calculation too

 

[Kars]

Hmm, according to your formula a 6'14 minute is on my physiological limit?
I see that with a 7 L TLC (VC 5,5L ) and 72KG weight my theoretical max. is 6'14"
I must say that this formula makes me feel good, though I wonder if it needs some tweaking and or extension. My 7' PB is this number + 10%.

Interesting to how others faire with this formula.

 

[chrismar]

Apparently Guy's pb should be in the mid 5s. Also, Dave is a big fat static underachiever.

~18l is a pretty big lung volume. Dave is over 2m tall and isn't close to that, despite having much bigger lungs than medically predicted (almost double I think?) Out of interest, how tall are you, Branko?

Edit: did some quick numbers on the back of a napkin and you could just fit lungs that size in my torso. If you removed all my organs first, that is.

 

[Will]

Another way to calculate is to do two breath holds with different, known lung volumes (LV1 and LV2), giving simultaneous equations:

(time due to blood) + LV1*(time per liter) = time 1
(time due to blood) + LV2*(time per liter) = time 2

Subtract one equation from the other and you can solve to find out how many seconds each liter of air gives you. In my case it's 41, so I would need a lung volume of around 14L to hold my breath 12 minutes.

 

[Branko Petrovic]

wow guys It is all crasey but i really like it scientific aproach
ok first numbers. weight from 68-73kg, 193cm. red cells I think 6.1milions, hemohlobin 158, Htc 0.4988. iron only 14 :/ 65 full packs. usually using for static around 50. after I excale completley I am able to suck out 1.5-2l of air. I think it is called invers paking, not sure.

I have a sister, she is now 19. when she was 16. I asked her to do static. from first try 5:24min. She went to competition, she won with 4:36, she was stresed a lot! so maybe, I will convince her to try again she is 168cm, she is also skinny, lung wolume not shure but something like 5l.

how to put this in calculation? when I really go calm, which I learned during spearfishing, because I had crasy situattions, my body temperature goes down to from 36.9 to 35.1 celsius.
plus I can control my hearth beats, I menaged in hospital by doing some dry statics to stop my hearth up to 10 sec. believe or not, after which all beats are the same, have the paper tape of EKG. do not know numbers during the wet static, but normally is 41-51 bpm.
contractions actually now starts litlle earlyer than before, from 6-7:30. few month ago (8:30 starts but holding only for 2min), on this attempt I was holding them for 4:40sec. In best case I can hold them now for 6min. After that I can't stand them ( have to go to toilet )
full excale+0.5l inverse packing, and I can around 4:30sec. and then I look like I have hipoxia. grey face blue lips... to scarry!
I am really interasted what would calculations said, based on all this.
8 month ago I was able to do like 10 packs, now I can put fingers between my ribs!
check this out
Photos of Branko Petrovic | Facebook
it is 4:41am now so sorry if I forgot something. I joust finished my co2 sesion, so I am still confused

 

[Branko Petrovic]

Facebook

this was december 2010. this is how I look when I have a big hipoxia! but I am fully aware of everything, this was with no practice at all! 7:11. buy in seconds I get back normal colour. last time I was close to this colour was at CMAS WC, but on video you see how clean I am.

 

[rafacuatic]

I did lots of statics near 7' with the same hipoxia or near samba limit with 10 packs.After some streching and 20 packs i'm doing near 8' with the same warm up,so for me more air= more time.
Congrats Branco! and one question.Which is your normal body temperature?Maybe low temp can help in breath hold ability.

 

[Fondueset]

Wow Branko! I think soon we will be watching you do some depth!

 

[Kars]

I think very much that the low base temperature is helpful in having a low metabolism, and low O2 consumption.

In regard to your extreme spearfish adventures, can you give us a example Branko?
In that photo it´s looks like your chest has been hit by a cannonball

How did you learn to stop your heart?

 

[Branko Petrovic]

normal body temperature is 36.9 usually, but I can put it down to 35.1, maybe lower but I do measuring when I realyse my armes are alll cold.
about chest, I can suck in my chest, same like stomach all the way in. it is not best picture in real life looks even more wierd. how I can control this-dont know joust can. and it is great when you do full excale dives. I need it when I have to dive fast, so I dive sometimes with empty lungs when is situation critical (fish will escape...)
about hearth, still I can't do it every time, but most of time I can. I do breathing and then when is body full of oxigen I joust swich off my brain. again how, do not know. but I can make my self fall to sleep during the static. the wirdest part is when I wake up. it doesnt take long the dream but you have felling it lasted for days, it is great for maximums but also very riscy because usually I get all confused and I get out to see where am I
ps. I have a friend who can slow hearth to 10 bpm in 30-40sec. how I have no idea, but on competition his puls is like 120! if he coul controll his hearth during apnea, he would do really crasey stuff!!! well he is already werry good. ;-)

 

[Branko Petrovic]

sorry Kars what example did you mean?

 

[Kars]

Hi Branko, I don't know what kind of land you're in, but there some special ability people over at your place!
Do you think it's true that in order to dream you need to not have an urge to breath for a long time? - if you would have it you couldn't get to that dreamstate?
(filmtip: Inception) And maybe your experience relates to this as well?
What are your static dreams about? How much time do you need to slip into dreaming?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByhAjJlcxIg]The Spirit Molecule - YouTube[/ame]

I meant do you have examples of your extreme spear fishing?
I recall you said you need to go deep to find good size fish, etc.

Receiving these idea's make me want to run to the pool and try and experiment. Very motivating.

 

[Branko Petrovic]

It is interasting question really because I was asking my self that for a long time! Serbia i part of ex-Yugoslavia, placed in south earten europe. So when the country felt apart yoy get, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia... so It is all the same genetics. and when you look at athlets comeing from those countries and nubmer of people actually practiceing it,
you get a wery high percntage of high level Apneists, and werry high percent of improvement.
I actully spoke with some friend and they told me that they also got to that state! but they got werry scarry of it. Now I am learning to fall into that state by will, and I am getting better and better at that. It feels in the begining like your mind is empty, not a single thing cross your mind, and then you youst start dreaming sometimes it takes seconds. but after waking up I can't remember the dreams only parts are left, and that unreal felling.
recently I had pleasure to meet young man from Croatia, but he lives in Austria, he is 15. and to be short he is the firs person I saw beeing able to do with chest what I do, but not so much. his pb. was 5:20, I told him joust a simple thing to do he did 6:08, you have video on you tube. that made me think about genetics!
first time duriing spearfishing I had that experience I was like 17. I was checking some system of caves and on the way up I fall to sleep ( for years I tought I had shallow black out), and I wake somewhere half way to the bottom, I opened my eyes and I had no Idea where am I! I joust saw some paricals in water going up! so I was, what is wrong here? and I look down and saw the bootom. so I start finning and I went to the surface.
so maybe somehow brain learned to shut down all unusefull parts in order to preserve him self. I do not know.

 

[Giobbi]

Unreal Branko! Fall asleep while diving. Is it that boring? : )