2014 lunocet

[Kars]

Fondue I do not doubt your ability to have a fairly good estimation of how the foil stacks up against the fin. However I'm asking people to come up with a simple but reliable way to test.
The advantage of this is that we'll get a database of users, and a ratio number.
We can add to that database pb's, but more interestingly number of strokes/distance/time (frequency, pace), suit use, weight, hight, amount of ballast used.

Now as to efficiency, it's a very tricky thing, especially with the variations in breath-up, body, Co2 tolerance and dive response.
Some people find swimming faster suits them better, see the WC finals , fins have an ideal speed, as foils may have (adjustable I believe).
Give me a soft fin and I'll get further swimming slow. Normal speed simply throws away energy.
It's a sea of variables, and we can easily go overboard measuring everything, so If you think of a simple and reliable way to test how fins relate to each other, we may end up with a better way for reviewers, customers and manufacturers to compare and benchmark products.

Off cause this number is going to influenced how user friendly and bad technique tolerable the product is, this too can be seen in the data set displaying the distance until the first contraction.

Fondue if you can find a few minutes, can you please take a non packed full breath and see how far you get until your first contraction with both the fin and foil. And maybe also DNF and bi-fins? Does the the effort level feel the same surfacing right after that first contraction?
Equal preparations and enough rest in between are needed to avoid messing up the co2-levels. I also recommend doing warm-up dives, so as the dive-response becomes consistent. I'll give it a go next Thursday and see what happens

 

[Fondueset]

Hi Kars,
I pretty much never dive into contractions in the pool Nor do I pack. Also, when I get contractions varies a great deal - I am usually able to suppress them. What I've been doing is identical distance intervals with identical breathe ups - I do not try to do identical times - instead trying to feel into what works best with the fin in question. I also normally do at least 10 dnfs and 10 dnfs with dolphin kicking. From this I have a high order of confidence in my assessment of the Dol-fin with 30 and 28 inch blades vs my #3 Starfin Hyperfin.

 

[Apneaddict]

Here is a solid model shot of the new (soon to be released) Pro flukes that Ted has sent to me.

I have not tried them yet, but expect to have them shipped next week and will be able to test them and provide my thoughts right away.

This was designed partially based on the feedback that I was able to provide from my testing and in large part from Ted's 12 yrs of experience in working on the Lunocet. I don't think it is a step in the wrong direction.

I have worked in the racecar world in my past as a driver, test-pilot, race engineer and later as a driver coach.

In this latest chapter of the Lunocet project, I really just started out offering to take it for a test drive... as I'm an equipment and monofin junkie. I was able to provide my feedback to Ted, based on my experience with other fins / monofins, etc.

It turns out that I was initially just a test-pilot... but provided my feedback to Ted and was able to draw on my aerodynamic experiences, analytical nature and finning experience and he was able to draw on his 12-years of experience with this invention (likely thousands of nights contemplating it and hundreds of dreams), 15 physical iterations and 4 production generations and he has came up with a design that Ted feels will really revolutionize the category.

My initial review of the "2014 original flukes" still stands, and as mentioned, "I find that I need to get the fin up to speed with a good push-off from the wall and then maintain it with small / smooth undulations and ankle movements. The less I focus on putting force through the flukes themselves and focus on a smooth undulation, the more efficient the fin is."

I think that this is because Ted is not a pure freediver, but is into Hydrotouring... also known as Sea Hiking. It is an aerobic activity and as such he keeps moving constantly with a readily available air supply.

As freedivers, we are anaerobic and most of us swim in a "burst-and-glide" format to maximize distance while minimizing energy spent. Either kick-glide... or kick-kick-glide.

In racing... more is always better. It's about maximisation. If you don't take the advantage... the other guy will. I spent a lot of time on my cars, equipment and preparation to give me the best chances of winning and it made a huge difference.

This new fluke design promises more acceleration... and this would allow for longer glides without worrying about slowing down too much. I believe it will be more energy efficient for the DYN / pool apneist. It should also translate into better performance for CWT depth diving, as the first few kicks off the bottom plate should yield more thrust, although I have not used it for this purpose yet.

It will likely be able to utilize a wider range of techniques and be more forgiving to poor technique. I would still recommend the classic flukes for training a newbie, technique practice, etc.

The new flukes have 71% (according to my calculations) more surface area and as a result of the added rubber will be more buoyant (closer to neutral).

I am also informed that there will be an upcoming footdeck change that will allow for an adjustable / customizable angle, to allow the diver to dial in their ideal angle to allow for the perfect glide, depending on personal anatomy and ankle flexibility. Should be interesting to see the implementation of this concept.

REALLY excited to get my feet on these bad boys and looking forward to providing my thoughts.

 

[Fondueset]

Here is a solid model shot of the new (soon to be released) Pro flukes that Ted has sent to me.

I have not tried them yet, but expect to have them shipped next week and will be able to test them and provide my thoughts right away.

This was designed partially based on the feedback that I was able to provide from my testing and in large part from Ted's 12 yrs of experience in working on the Lunocet. I don't think it is a step in the wrong direction.

I have worked in the racecar world in my past as a driver, test-pilot, race engineer and later as a driver coach.

In this latest chapter of the Lunocet project, I really just started out offering to take it for a test drive... as I'm an equipment and monofin junkie. I was able to provide my feedback to Ted, based on my experience with other fins / monofins, etc.

It turns out that I was initially just a test-pilot... but provided my feedback to Ted and was able to draw on my aerodynamic experiences, analytical nature and finning experience and he was able to draw on his 12-years of experience with this invention (likely thousands of nights contemplating it and hundreds of dreams), 15 physical iterations and 4 production generations and he has came up with a design that Ted feels will really revolutionize the category.

My initial review of the "2014 original flukes" still stands, and as mentioned, "I find that I need to get the fin up to speed with a good push-off from the wall and then maintain it with small / smooth undulations and ankle movements. The less I focus on putting force through the flukes themselves and focus on a smooth undulation, the more efficient the fin is."

I think that this is because Ted is not a pure freediver, but is into Hydrotouring... also known as Sea Hiking. It is an aerobic activity and as such he keeps moving constantly with a readily available air supply.

As freedivers, we are anaerobic and most of us swim in a "burst-and-glide" format to maximize distance while minimizing energy spent. Either kick-glide... or kick-kick-glide.

In racing... more is always better. It's about maximisation. If you don't take the advantage... the other guy will. I spent a lot of time on my cars, equipment and preparation to give me the best chances of winning and it made a huge difference.

This new fluke design promises more acceleration... and this would allow for longer glides without worrying about slowing down too much. I believe it will be more energy efficient for the DYN / pool apneist. It should also translate into better performance for CWT depth diving, as the first few kicks off the bottom plate should yield more thrust, although I have not used it for this purpose yet.

It will likely be able to utilize a wider range of techniques and be more forgiving to poor technique. I would still recommend the classic flukes for training a newbie, technique practice, etc.

The new flukes have 71% (according to my calculations) more surface area and as a result of the added rubber will be more buoyant (closer to neutral).

I am also informed that there will be an upcoming footdeck change that will allow for an adjustable / customizable angle, to allow the diver to dial in their ideal angle to allow for the perfect glide, depending on personal anatomy and ankle flexibility. Should be interesting to see the implementation of this concept.

REALLY excited to get my feet on these bad boys and looking forward to providing my thoughts.




View attachment 37659

That looks very interesting! I second your observation that these foil fins are better under load than out of the gate.

 

[Kars]

I cannot wait to hear your initial observations and review AA.
And for cwt, you may want to use some extra weight and see how it handles the extra negative buoyancy.

 

[REVAN]

REALLY excited to get my feet on these bad boys and looking forward to providing my thoughts.
View attachment 37659

Just a reminder Apneaddict; we have not seen your performance review of the 2014 Lunocet with the original fluke. It would be helpful to complete that one before starting a review of a new device and mixing the results together. I can see people getting confused over what words go with which hardware.

May I suggest you complete Part 2 of your article as planned (evaluating the original fluke), since Part 1 never made mention of this latest hardware? End Part 2 with a lead-in to a Part 3 of the article that will review the new (soon to be released) Pro fluke.

 

[Ecto1]

After much bouncing back and forth, bad weather and miscommunication and odd timing, the Lunocet kit I ordered is on its way chasing me around the world to my location. Problem solved, and I apologize for the frustration and am looking forward to playing now.

Thanks for helping to sort this out Ted, much appreciated.

 

[Ben H]

Just to confirm with everyone:

I found today I was able to get the best forward propulsion from the lunocet by doing these things.

Legs as straight as possible. I mean really straight!

Secondly the fin stroke needs to be very shallow. Doing this I found there was as much thrust in the up and down stroke. I was also able to get a good glide underwater and finswimming at the surface.

Perceived exertion very good too I have been ill with the flu but had a good session.

I feel due to the lunocet being a hydrofoil if the vertical up and down of each fin stroke is too high or too low the angle of the blade or the attack goes out of its range and then is no longer efficient at propelling the person forward.

I am just confirming to keep legs as straight as possible and keep the hip and end of the fin as shallow as possible. Less body is then moving through the column of water.

The manatee or traditional fin gives far better propulsion with as wide as possible movement at the fin itself.

If I am stating the obvious good!!!

I can take a video underwater and swimming at the surface more to show the glide speed I am achieving. I might get around to that tomorrow or on thursday.

Wet fins everyone!

 

[Fondueset]

Just to confirm with everyone:

I found today I was able to get the best forward propulsion from the lunocet by doing these things.

Legs as straight as possible. I mean really straight!

Secondly the fin stroke needs to be very shallow. Doing this I found there was as much thrust in the up and down stroke. I was also able to get a good glide underwater and finswimming at the surface.

Perceived exertion very good too I have been ill with the flu but had a good session.

I feel due to the lunocet being a hydrofoil if the vertical up and down of each fin stroke is too high or too low the angle of the blade or the attack goes out of its range and then is no longer efficient at propelling the person forward.

I am just confirming to keep legs as straight as possible and keep the hip and end of the fin as shallow as possible. Less body is then moving through the column of water.

The manatee or traditional fin gives far better propulsion with as wide as possible movement at the fin itself.

If I am stating the obvious good!!!

I can take a video underwater and swimming at the surface more to show the glide speed I am achieving. I might get around to that tomorrow or on thursday.

Wet fins everyone!

I agree with all that except the bit about the traditional fin - this is not correct. If I, or anyone, swim with "as wide as possible movement at the fin itself." We will quickly become exhausted by our own drag. Large amplitudes are useful ascending from depth and during initial acceleration - after that it depends on speed, blade stiffness etc. As with a foil - extreme angles are less efficient.

 

[Ben H]

I agree with all that except the bit about the traditional fin - this is not correct. If I, or anyone, swim with "as wide as possible movement at the fin itself." We will quickly become exhausted by our own drag. Large amplitudes are useful ascending from depth and during initial acceleration - after that it depends on speed, blade stiffness etc. As with a foil - extreme angles are less efficient. Also, the terms hyperfin and manatee are not interchangeable. A hyperfin is a low aspect underwater swimming device used by human beings, a Manatee is an aquatic mammal.

Sorry I won't be posting here anymore.

I haven't got time for this virtual world and all its highlighted problems.

Good luck guys!!!

 

[Fondueset]

Sorry I won't be posting here anymore.

I haven't got time for this virtual world and all its highlighted problems.

Good luck guys!!!

Whoop - sorry, meant to tone that down a little before I posted it.. Edited out the Manatee reference.

 

[cdavis]

You know, the thing I especially like about DB is the politeness. Posters might be emphatic with their observations, but nearly always very polite about it.

I guess that isn't enough for some folks.

 

[Fondueset]

You know, the thing I especially like about DB is the politeness. Posters might be emphatic with their observations, but nearly always very polite about it.

I guess that isn't enough for some folks.

Now I feel guilty or something . I've really been enjoying the technical conversation, but I do get impatient when the language waxes jingoistic and things start sounding more like advertisements than observations. I understand people get excited and quote what they read - but it seems like this forum is generally more empirically tuned. But I can be a precision freak.

In any case it's way far from my intention to chase anyone away and I apologize.

On to another subject - first of all - if you don't know, I've tested a couple of iterations of the lunocet, as well as the Dol-fin; which I'm currently playing with. I've been reading about aspect ratios as they pertain to airfoils - pretty interesting. Modeling the performance of a hyperfin would seem to be a pretty tall order because, while it is technically a low-aspect wing - it flexes as it moves through the water. This makes the whole thrust/drag business more complicated; it would seem almost to be a flow of calculations varying with amplitude, speed, fin stiffness etc. etc. The Pro model lunocet looks to have a decreased aspect (increased chord) ratio - which will likely mean more induced drag but not mitigated by flexing. It will be interesting to see how that plays out as performance. So far with the foils I've been testing I have noticed increased performance as the span increases. I'll venture theres a sweet spot beyond which it is not useful to go. Same is probably true of Chord - particularly with a foil. The c4 mono flap has a very long chord - Connor drove one of these as well. It is a very soft fin and swam well at low speeds in dynamic - with an almost eel-like sort of whip effect, but could also be made to accelerate by increasing the amplitude - which was better for vertical swims.

 

[cdavis]

Don't think I would feel guilty.

I suspect there is something else to be considered in the efficiency discussion, but I don't know how to quantify it. With the Dolfin, from about 1 m/sec down, I'm most relaxed and, I pretty sure, most efficient, with no undulation at all. That's the kind of speed you might use for recreational diving, reef crawling, etc. The drive comes out of the ankles, with some hip motion. frequency is moderate to slow. Knees are mostly straight, upper body is relaxed, major muscles in the legs and buttocks are not in major use. This type of stroke keeps the body very streamlined, minimizing drag. Finding efficiency without undulation might be "Connor-centric", my back doesn't much like to undulate and I have a hard time relaxing when undulating. Could be the "efficiency" of this type of kick is more related to my ability to relax more of the body than it is translation of power into motion. On the other hand, this might be general. At slow speeds the water movement advantage conveyed by undulation is reduced(I think) and the dolfin's foil design might favor this type of motion. If there is something to this, there are probably differences in how well the various foil type fins adapt to this technique.

The monoflap worked fairly well with this type of stroke. Its softness made it amenable to a more rapid kick than a normal mono.

 

[Fondueset]

Don't think I would feel guilty.

I suspect there is something else to be considered in the efficiency discussion, but I don't know how to quantify it. With the Dolfin, from about 1 m/sec down, I'm most relaxed and, I pretty sure, most efficient, with no undulation at all. That's the kind of speed you might use for recreational diving, reef crawling, etc. The drive comes out of the ankles, with some hip motion. frequency is moderate to slow. Knees are mostly straight, upper body is relaxed, major muscles in the legs and buttocks are not in major use. This type of stroke keeps the body very streamlined, minimizing drag. Finding efficiency without undulation might be "Connor-centric", my back doesn't much like to undulate and I have a hard time relaxing when undulating. Could be the "efficiency" of this type of kick is more related to my ability to relax more of the body than it is translation of power into motion. On the other hand, this might be general. At slow speeds the water movement advantage conveyed by undulation is reduced(I think) and the dolfin's foil design might favor this type of motion. If there is something to this, there are probably differences in how well the various foil type fins adapt to this technique.

The monoflap worked fairly well with this type of stroke. Its softness made it amenable to a more rapid kick than a normal mono.

I know what you mean. With the hyperfin I can do a very slow, long stroke that feels more like falling. With water moving over the blade you can get thrust on a slow downstroke with straight legs It is also possible to do ankles with a soft hyperfin. In this video with the Orca I'm moving along at a fairly good clip with mostly ankles. I think the pace is a little fast for the technique to be efficient.

I tend to prefer long glides in general, but I find the ankle business is useful for nuanced swimming on the surface and at depth - if you don't won't to load up to accelerate. I model a lot of my open water swimming on the way the fish move - carp in particular are big fans of the long glide - and most other fish are not afraid of them.
I'm quite sure the lunocet responds well to this technique.

 

[cdavis]

you got it. My upper body feels straighter than that, but I expect a vid would show something more like yours. Agree on the speed, .8 m/s feels better.

 

[neurodoc]

Today I had the best day yet swimming with the Lunocet. My son had a swim meet this morning-a home meet-which I helped to judge. After the meet, I had the pool to myself for an hour! I experimented with different settings, different stroke amplitudes and frequency. I find it takes me at least 30 minutes to get loosened up enough to do a decent dolphin kick so the extra time helped. I was able to follow some of Kars and Fondueset's advice and it helped my stroke significantly. The Lunocet responds well to improvements in stroke, and I find it is easier to do a correct dolphin kick than with my Glide fin. This may be partly because I don't have as much experience as some of you, and partly because my Glide fin wears me out quickly as it is quite stiff. I could not sprint as fast of course (my glide is a sprint fin), but surprisingly close considering how much smaller it is. Much less effort involved, for me, and my feet didn't hurt which is a plus. Anybody get the Pro sized flukes for theirs yet? I am wondering how much difference there will be when using those.

 

[Apneaddict]

Ted has sent me pics of the Pro fluke moulds, but he was unable to get me a set of the flukes sent last week. I expect them this week. Can't wait!

He is located near Atlanta and the city was shut down all of last week because they had a rare snowfall and it melted, then froze. It was actually quite bad.

I lived in Atlanta previously and the city is TOTALLY unprepared for snow. The city grinds to a halt with even an inch of snow which normally melts right away.

Last week I was -30*c where I live now and life went on as normal. Getting 20cm of snow today. No biggie.

With the regular flukes, I've been working on my technique and have made some more improvements in efficiency. To be honest, the better your technique is with a monofin in the classical style, the better the results.

 

[Kars]

Neurodoc, just a tip to help you get much quicker flexible and into finning.
Try doing as a warm-up do 50m modest back crawl, and ten another 50 back crawl sprint, this really helps me to loosen up my shoulders and upper back in a very short time, just make sure you make big and strong arm pulls doing the bc. Pleased to hear you're making such nice advances!

 

[neurodoc]

Thank you, Kars I will try that. I haven't figured out if it is my body or my mind that takes 30 minutes, but this could certainly help. Some days with the sprint Glide my feet would give out about the time the rest of me was warmed up to go. My breath hold is not good till after 30 minutes either, though I think that is because I tend to shallow breathe and breath hold when not in the water. This leaves me with too much CO2 and acidity before swimming, and I have to breathe that off before I can breath hold more. Going to try to do some yoga, more apnea tables, breathing exercises (I play didgeridoo some) to try to help this. Also resolve some long term stress by moving to a different state (geographically). I find freediving reveals my issues and weaknesses and forces me to confront them. There is much truth and honesty underwater; cannot lie to yourself about anything. In any case, had another fun swim session with Lunocet today. I found that the stiffer two settings don't work as well for me, as it doesn't seem like the flukes can provide enough resistance to stretch/bend the elastic peduncle rubber. I bet the Pro flukes will though! With the current ones, it swims best for me with middle setting- 2 pins in closest to the fin/farthest from shoes. Thank you, Kars, for sharing your knowledge. I love how much I learn from this forum.