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83 Cnf - New Wr
- Thread starterBillextreme
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Are we allowed to discuss it Laminar? Can we form an opinion of our own? Of course it is the judges decision at the end of the day!
I thought we were here to keep informed and to be educated? Surely part of that process is debate - healthy debate????
I thought we were here to keep informed and to be educated? Surely part of that process is debate - healthy debate????
Are we allowed to discuss it Laminar? Can we form an opinion of our own? Of course it is the judges decision at the end of the day!
I thought we were here to keep informed and to be educated? Surely part of that process is debate - healthy debate????
Yeah, you're right, Southatthesky. I wasn't intending to close down the debate. Nor was I trying to suggest that no one should speculate. I don't think I ever have tried to do that in the threads on DB.
It wasn't me who actually posted. It was an imposter. A late night or mid-afternoon version of myself. Terse and ambiguous. :naughty
Sorry, now I'm just put more toes in my mouth. I'm tired.
I just would find it believe that Martin would make such an error and the judges would let it go, too. Maybe they did! :duh
I know that several world records attempts in FI and CNF have been done without tags as have National records. Perhaps this is a new amendment?
Bill?
Peter
I still love ya pete - even if when your tired your grammar goes haywire and your doppelganger shows up to put toes in your mouthrofl rofl rofl
Hmm, interesting - the record still did not (re)appear on AIDA's website, and it is also not listed on Bill's ApneaMania, although it is himself who announced it here and although he usually adds new records there immediately. On the other hand, AIDA Czech published today a closing report: all other records had to be canceled due to the weather, but they still prize the CNF record and tell that it was a pleasant surprise even for Martin, because he was absolutely no prepared for it, and started to train CNF only a week before the record.
So, it is clear now there will be no other records from this event, but it remains open what the heck is going on with the 83m CNF WR? Could Bill, or anyone else from AIDA tell us if there are still any doubts, or what the reason is behind the removal of the record from AIDA's website?
So, it is clear now there will be no other records from this event, but it remains open what the heck is going on with the 83m CNF WR? Could Bill, or anyone else from AIDA tell us if there are still any doubts, or what the reason is behind the removal of the record from AIDA's website?
Dear freediving friends,
Martin Stepanek of the Czech Republic recently achieved a performance of 83 meters in Constant Weight No Fins (CNF) during his world record event in Dahab, Egypt. The record dive was judged to be valid by the judges on site. The AIDA board was asked to review the dive. Upon review of the events connected to the dive the AIDA Board has made the following comments and conclusions.
Martin’s record dive is valid. He is the new world record holder. The regulations call for on site judgment being made for world records by the judges at the site. In addition, if an error is made in that judgment, the benefit of the doubt goes to the athlete when an error is not related to the validity of the athlete’s performance. In this case, the judges on site judged the performance as valid. Martin’s performance was not flawed; he made the depth and returned. It is the board’s decision to respect the on site judgment of the judges and give the benefit of the doubt to the athlete.
Protests are available for world records even after a decision has been made by the on site judges, just as they are available during a competition. The AIDA Board functions in this role for world records. If a protest of the Board’s decision is desired, that protest should be addressed to the AIDA Disciplinary Committee at the following E-mail address. Discipline_AIDA @ yahoogroups.com This option still remains in this case.
This decision was not an easy decision. The AIDA Board will make changes in an attempt to never have a situation such as this occur again. The Board will be working on documents to attempt to eliminate any mixed messages between documents that exist currently.
The issues in this case should in no way be thought to reflect poorly on the validity of Martin’s performance or his record.
All non-sled depth disciplines require the use of a tag. Both world record and competition performances require the athlete to recover a tag. This regulation remains in place and will continue to be respected.
AIDA Executive Board
2007-08-13
Martin Stepanek of the Czech Republic recently achieved a performance of 83 meters in Constant Weight No Fins (CNF) during his world record event in Dahab, Egypt. The record dive was judged to be valid by the judges on site. The AIDA board was asked to review the dive. Upon review of the events connected to the dive the AIDA Board has made the following comments and conclusions.
Martin’s record dive is valid. He is the new world record holder. The regulations call for on site judgment being made for world records by the judges at the site. In addition, if an error is made in that judgment, the benefit of the doubt goes to the athlete when an error is not related to the validity of the athlete’s performance. In this case, the judges on site judged the performance as valid. Martin’s performance was not flawed; he made the depth and returned. It is the board’s decision to respect the on site judgment of the judges and give the benefit of the doubt to the athlete.
Protests are available for world records even after a decision has been made by the on site judges, just as they are available during a competition. The AIDA Board functions in this role for world records. If a protest of the Board’s decision is desired, that protest should be addressed to the AIDA Disciplinary Committee at the following E-mail address. Discipline_AIDA @ yahoogroups.com This option still remains in this case.
This decision was not an easy decision. The AIDA Board will make changes in an attempt to never have a situation such as this occur again. The Board will be working on documents to attempt to eliminate any mixed messages between documents that exist currently.
The issues in this case should in no way be thought to reflect poorly on the validity of Martin’s performance or his record.
All non-sled depth disciplines require the use of a tag. Both world record and competition performances require the athlete to recover a tag. This regulation remains in place and will continue to be respected.
AIDA Executive Board
2007-08-13
Since this is public now, here is my query sent to the AIDA board:
I am happy with the result (congratulations Martin!), but the reasoning is objectively flawed. The key concept is:
"In addition, if an error is made in that judgment, the benefit of the doubt goes to the athlete when an error is not related to the validity of the athlete’s performance."
I am assuming, that "not related to the validity of the athlete's performance" means "the athlete is not helped by this error." Anyone who believes that not bringing a tag up does not facilitate a performance need only compare my (or any other) CNF dive, where I use one hand to pull on the line, while the other is detaching the tag and making sure it is fastened onto my leg (or in Winram's case, tucked into his wetsuit hood), and Stepanek's dive: a quick, trouble-free turn, using both hands to pull on the line and start the ascent quicker. I have practiced the turn and taking the tag possibly more than any other CNF diver, and yet it still adds 1-2" on to my dive time, not to mention a less efficient pull on the line to start the ascent.
Not bringing a tag to the surface expedites performance. That is an uncontestable fact.
If I drop my weight belt at the bottom it will be an easier dive. If I don't have to bother with taking a tag from the bottom plate and attaching it to my body it will be an easier dive. The difference between these two examples is only a question of the degree that the dive is made easier.
Ask yourself: if the on-site judges forgot to disqualify a diver for having dropped their weight belt and thereby performed a CW dive in VW would you allow them to keep the world record? If you answer no to this question then it logically follows that you must disqualify a non-tag dive for precisely the same reason.
Personally, I would prefer Stepanek to keep his WR (I was even more sympathetic until I found out that he too is an AIDA judge and wasn't up to play with a 2 year old rule!), however the only means that AIDA has to validate this 83m dive is if AIDA allows future attempts to be conducted on the same terms, i.e. without tags.
I fear that AIDA will earn itself a very negative reputation amongst the freediving society if it awards a WR to a dive that ignores an AIDA rule but still requires future dives to respect that rule. The fact that the mistake was made by a total of 3 AIDA judges (Stepanek himself is an AIDA judge) will only further discredit AIDA's reputation.
Play it safe and reconsider this decision, and if you can, abolish tags in the disciplines where the means of propulsion are the hands.
William Trubridge.
I am happy with the result (congratulations Martin!), but the reasoning is objectively flawed. The key concept is:
"In addition, if an error is made in that judgment, the benefit of the doubt goes to the athlete when an error is not related to the validity of the athlete’s performance."
I am assuming, that "not related to the validity of the athlete's performance" means "the athlete is not helped by this error." Anyone who believes that not bringing a tag up does not facilitate a performance need only compare my (or any other) CNF dive, where I use one hand to pull on the line, while the other is detaching the tag and making sure it is fastened onto my leg (or in Winram's case, tucked into his wetsuit hood), and Stepanek's dive: a quick, trouble-free turn, using both hands to pull on the line and start the ascent quicker. I have practiced the turn and taking the tag possibly more than any other CNF diver, and yet it still adds 1-2" on to my dive time, not to mention a less efficient pull on the line to start the ascent.
Not bringing a tag to the surface expedites performance. That is an uncontestable fact.
If I drop my weight belt at the bottom it will be an easier dive. If I don't have to bother with taking a tag from the bottom plate and attaching it to my body it will be an easier dive. The difference between these two examples is only a question of the degree that the dive is made easier.
Ask yourself: if the on-site judges forgot to disqualify a diver for having dropped their weight belt and thereby performed a CW dive in VW would you allow them to keep the world record? If you answer no to this question then it logically follows that you must disqualify a non-tag dive for precisely the same reason.
Personally, I would prefer Stepanek to keep his WR (I was even more sympathetic until I found out that he too is an AIDA judge and wasn't up to play with a 2 year old rule!), however the only means that AIDA has to validate this 83m dive is if AIDA allows future attempts to be conducted on the same terms, i.e. without tags.
I fear that AIDA will earn itself a very negative reputation amongst the freediving society if it awards a WR to a dive that ignores an AIDA rule but still requires future dives to respect that rule. The fact that the mistake was made by a total of 3 AIDA judges (Stepanek himself is an AIDA judge) will only further discredit AIDA's reputation.
Play it safe and reconsider this decision, and if you can, abolish tags in the disciplines where the means of propulsion are the hands.
William Trubridge.
I would have to agree with Will on this one. It wouldn't be a problem with me if Martin had lost the tag accidentally but by even not using a tag in the performance he is outside rules.
And allowing this one exception is really unfair to the divers that tried to break the record before and will try in the future.
Just my genera opinion, nothing personal on any side.
And allowing this one exception is really unfair to the divers that tried to break the record before and will try in the future.
Just my genera opinion, nothing personal on any side.
I agree with Will,
it should be one rule for all and this is really making it look like that it's not. It was a great dive and I think it should be a valid WR, no doubt Martin would have made the dive if he had to grab the tag. But that doesn't change the fact he did not have a tag, and everyone else still needs to grab a tag, I don't get it? What stops people in future from deliberately not grabbing a tag if the judges on site are ok with that, then later saying it was a mistake ?
For him it may not have made that much difference but for the rest of us mere mortals not having to grab a tag could easily add a few m to the depth of a no-fins dive. I did 2 constant no fins dives in competition last year and only practiced a little on how to bring the tag up. The first time I grabbed it swam up a while, then stopped tried to put it in my weightbelt swam up again, then worried would drop it and swam up with it in my hand. The second time I had made up a carabineer and was going to clip the tag on. On the actual dive itself I still didn't trust it or myself to not drop the tag, I swam all the way up with it in my hand. OK, that was my bad but it does definitely add more complexity and in turn more anxiety to a dive.
Martin & I also Judged Annabel Briseno's CNF WR back when the tag rule was brought in literally only a week or two before. At first there was some confusion with some AIDA board members saying you needed a tag and others not. With less then a week before doing her record attempts she now had to grab a tag when she had not been practicing with one, and break a previous WR of someone that didn't need to grab a tag ?
I'm with Will, if the AIDA Board says this record is a valid CNF WR without a tag then really shouldn't that just be the same rule for everyone?
Cheers,
Wal
it should be one rule for all and this is really making it look like that it's not. It was a great dive and I think it should be a valid WR, no doubt Martin would have made the dive if he had to grab the tag. But that doesn't change the fact he did not have a tag, and everyone else still needs to grab a tag, I don't get it? What stops people in future from deliberately not grabbing a tag if the judges on site are ok with that, then later saying it was a mistake ?
For him it may not have made that much difference but for the rest of us mere mortals not having to grab a tag could easily add a few m to the depth of a no-fins dive. I did 2 constant no fins dives in competition last year and only practiced a little on how to bring the tag up. The first time I grabbed it swam up a while, then stopped tried to put it in my weightbelt swam up again, then worried would drop it and swam up with it in my hand. The second time I had made up a carabineer and was going to clip the tag on. On the actual dive itself I still didn't trust it or myself to not drop the tag, I swam all the way up with it in my hand. OK, that was my bad
but it does definitely add more complexity and in turn more anxiety to a dive. Martin & I also Judged Annabel Briseno's CNF WR back when the tag rule was brought in literally only a week or two before. At first there was some confusion with some AIDA board members saying you needed a tag and others not. With less then a week before doing her record attempts she now had to grab a tag when she had not been practicing with one, and break a previous WR of someone that didn't need to grab a tag ?
I'm with Will, if the AIDA Board says this record is a valid CNF WR without a tag then really shouldn't that just be the same rule for everyone?
Cheers,
Wal
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Picking up a tag is even more difficult without a mask. It sometimes takes me several seconds to locate and grab the damn thing. For nofins at least it would be better to do away with tags as long as there is adequate bottom footage. But as Will and Wal have said, the same rule needs to apply for the next guy to attempt that record.
As much as this is a contentious issue, and I feel for Martin and Will T as all this uncertainty must be a pretty big emotional strain, it is positive to see so many athletes passionately participating in this debate. It is a sign that our sport is growing and developing in its professional approach to competition.
For what it's worth, while this debate is going on and the rules are re-evaluated, there may also be some value in looking at the big picture and considering the material and colour of the tag also. No, this isn't a really 'girly' comment - the introduction of velcro tags has made CNF dives slightly easier. I have done competitions with both and whatever means of attachment the diver chooses (sticking it to his suit, belt or even tucking it inside the hood) it is easier as it frees up the hands and wrists (not to mention putting your hand through an elastic loop if you're diving without a mask takes time and interferes with the first pull on the ascent).
On the colour note, and to back up Dave Mullins' comment about diving without a mask (or fluid-filled goggles without lenses for that matter) retrieving the tag with blurred vision certainly adds to bottom time. Linda and Lotta at Freedive Dahab use a white bottom plate with black tags which certainly helps in this.
Perhaps a sensible way forward is for the decisions to go to discussion and then vote among any athlete seriously interested in competing in this discipline. That way we get the benefit of every athlete's experience and it is a fair outcome at the end. Certainly as depths increase, the safety aspect of minimising bottom time has to be taken into consideration.
Dive on, everyone!
x
Sara
For what it's worth, while this debate is going on and the rules are re-evaluated, there may also be some value in looking at the big picture and considering the material and colour of the tag also. No, this isn't a really 'girly' comment - the introduction of velcro tags has made CNF dives slightly easier. I have done competitions with both and whatever means of attachment the diver chooses (sticking it to his suit, belt or even tucking it inside the hood) it is easier as it frees up the hands and wrists (not to mention putting your hand through an elastic loop if you're diving without a mask takes time and interferes with the first pull on the ascent).
On the colour note, and to back up Dave Mullins' comment about diving without a mask (or fluid-filled goggles without lenses for that matter) retrieving the tag with blurred vision certainly adds to bottom time. Linda and Lotta at Freedive Dahab use a white bottom plate with black tags which certainly helps in this.
Perhaps a sensible way forward is for the decisions to go to discussion and then vote among any athlete seriously interested in competing in this discipline. That way we get the benefit of every athlete's experience and it is a fair outcome at the end. Certainly as depths increase, the safety aspect of minimising bottom time has to be taken into consideration.
Dive on, everyone!
x
Sara
So sad to read.
I think AIDA did the best they could, and if we take a look at what options they had I’m sure you agree even if your name is Trubridge. Now they give William a fair chance to take this further and have his record back if he feels so strongly about the missing tag. The difference between a missing tag or lose yourself from the weight belt is very big and not a good comparison (variable weight). AIDA will probably penalise the judges who were present, and we will for sure not see this things again. To understand is if AIDA Board would give Martin red card after first give him the white, we would have exactly the same discussion about that decision.
I guess we have a more interesting thing to look at. How could Martin, as the top athlete and high level AIDA judge he is, say yes for this? When he knew that there was an error with his dive, he should without a doubt say no for this record directly and not let it go this far.
Before I saw Martin as a role model for every star freediver and one of the fairest freediver you can find, but if he can do this, his not on my list anymore.
//robby
I think AIDA did the best they could, and if we take a look at what options they had I’m sure you agree even if your name is Trubridge. Now they give William a fair chance to take this further and have his record back if he feels so strongly about the missing tag. The difference between a missing tag or lose yourself from the weight belt is very big and not a good comparison (variable weight). AIDA will probably penalise the judges who were present, and we will for sure not see this things again. To understand is if AIDA Board would give Martin red card after first give him the white, we would have exactly the same discussion about that decision.
I guess we have a more interesting thing to look at. How could Martin, as the top athlete and high level AIDA judge he is, say yes for this? When he knew that there was an error with his dive, he should without a doubt say no for this record directly and not let it go this far.
Before I saw Martin as a role model for every star freediver and one of the fairest freediver you can find, but if he can do this, his not on my list anymore.
//robby
Amazing dive! Congratulations Martin!
I watched the video over and over and I didn't notice a safety lanyard? I understand that the video might be comprised of various dives but I never once saw a safety lanyard. According to the AIDA rules the use of a safety lanyard is mandatory for all depth disciplines. Isn’t it?
I watched the video over and over and I didn't notice a safety lanyard? I understand that the video might be comprised of various dives but I never once saw a safety lanyard. According to the AIDA rules the use of a safety lanyard is mandatory for all depth disciplines. Isn’t it?
I have to agree with Will, and would much more prefer if Martin repeated the dive with a tag as soon as it became clear that rules were misinterpreted. On the other hand it is clear that doing two record dives is not the same psychical and physical effort as just with one.
However, this case clearly shows how bad and chaotic the current rules are. This is not the first prominent case when rules were incorrectly interpreted by international AIDA judges. I remember another scandal at Stephan Mifsud, where he unlike Martin, was indeed disqualified, although I believe that not making the sign helped to his performance much less than not having to grab a tag.
I really do not understand how the rules can contain so many contradictory paragraphs (from previous posts):
http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v5.3a-eng.pdf
6.3.2 Signal arrangement:
6.3.2.1 For constant weight, constant weight without fins and free immersion, one or several signals will be
placed at the anticipated depth of the record attempt bearing a number corresponding to the depth in
meters and signed by the International AIDA Judges on the day of the attempt.
The following submissions will be used to witness the performance:
· the freediver bringing up a marker ("depth tag") previously signed by the 2 International Judges.
AND
· a video recording on a new videocassette of the capture of the marker by a camera secured at the
anticipated depth, signed by the 2 International Judges prior to its immersion.
However, in free immersion and in constant weight without fins, it is permissible to touch only the end
plate by hand without taking the marker.
http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v11.2-eng.pdf
If the athlete does not bring up the tag, the official depth device serves to measure the performance.
and from Bill:
All non-sled depth disciplines require the use of a tag. Both world record and competition performances require the athlete to recover a tag. This regulation remains in place and will continue to be respected.
So how to know which rule is actually valid and which one overrules the other? It is not surprising but very sad that even international judges do not know how to interpret the rules. It clearly shows that there are two very serious problems in AIDA and that they have to be worked out:
1) Absolutely insufficient education and examination of judges. If three of three international judges do not know AIDA rules, it means the educational and examination system completely failed
2) The rules are too complicated and too contradictory and need to be simplified
Personally I am happy that the record was confirmed, but unfortunately it leaves a very bitter test in the mouth and I agree that it is a strong discrimination of other freedivers who ever attempted or will attempt a CNF record. It also discriminates athletes who were already disqualified for other less important mistakes of AIDA judges (i.e. Mifsud).
The conclusion is that I am very uneasy with this record and with the rules, and hope AIDA will now indeed do something to avoid such cases in future.
However, this case clearly shows how bad and chaotic the current rules are. This is not the first prominent case when rules were incorrectly interpreted by international AIDA judges. I remember another scandal at Stephan Mifsud, where he unlike Martin, was indeed disqualified, although I believe that not making the sign helped to his performance much less than not having to grab a tag.
I really do not understand how the rules can contain so many contradictory paragraphs (from previous posts):
http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v5.3a-eng.pdf
6.3.2 Signal arrangement:
6.3.2.1 For constant weight, constant weight without fins and free immersion, one or several signals will be
placed at the anticipated depth of the record attempt bearing a number corresponding to the depth in
meters and signed by the International AIDA Judges on the day of the attempt.
The following submissions will be used to witness the performance:
· the freediver bringing up a marker ("depth tag") previously signed by the 2 International Judges.
AND
· a video recording on a new videocassette of the capture of the marker by a camera secured at the
anticipated depth, signed by the 2 International Judges prior to its immersion.
However, in free immersion and in constant weight without fins, it is permissible to touch only the end
plate by hand without taking the marker.
http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v11.2-eng.pdf
If the athlete does not bring up the tag, the official depth device serves to measure the performance.
and from Bill:
All non-sled depth disciplines require the use of a tag. Both world record and competition performances require the athlete to recover a tag. This regulation remains in place and will continue to be respected.
So how to know which rule is actually valid and which one overrules the other? It is not surprising but very sad that even international judges do not know how to interpret the rules. It clearly shows that there are two very serious problems in AIDA and that they have to be worked out:
1) Absolutely insufficient education and examination of judges. If three of three international judges do not know AIDA rules, it means the educational and examination system completely failed
2) The rules are too complicated and too contradictory and need to be simplified
Personally I am happy that the record was confirmed, but unfortunately it leaves a very bitter test in the mouth and I agree that it is a strong discrimination of other freedivers who ever attempted or will attempt a CNF record. It also discriminates athletes who were already disqualified for other less important mistakes of AIDA judges (i.e. Mifsud).
The conclusion is that I am very uneasy with this record and with the rules, and hope AIDA will now indeed do something to avoid such cases in future.
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Why this was not applied for Stephane Mifsud' static apnea WR when he was disqualified after the judges said OK ??
Bringing up a tag for CNF is dumb. I think rules have to change. But we can't say that the next CNF WR should be done without a tag until the rules have officially changed. Otherwise it would discredit AIDA even more. It would be like saying to the athletes : just do what you want and then AIDA will have to change his rules to make the records look ok.