83 Cnf - New Wr

[Billextreme]

Dear Glenn,

AIDA Disciplinary Commission can change decisions, but not our rules.

The AIDA Disciplinary Commission is where all the work is done when it comes to questions about unfair practice inside of AIDA. This includes doping questions, cheating and any behaviour that contradicts the AIDA regulations.

The AIDA Technical Commission is where all the work is done when it comes to rules, regulations and safety. The mail address is:THIS

have a nice day
/B

 

[shoutatthesky]

So to sum it up - the record needs to be ruled invalid to avoid discrediting AIDA and all future record attempts under the AIDA organisation.
There was clearly an error on the part of the judges and the athlete. The record was not completed under the correct rules. To avoid further errors of this magnitude AIDA need to be strong and stand by the RULES because by doing so they send a message that every athlete competes from a level playing field.

 

[sheepeck]

I want to apologize.
Sentence I placed on my post No37 of this thread was taken from "Regulations for international freediving competitions" and not from "Regulation for the recognition of records".
So the previous post No36 is correct.

And so here can the whole story end, because that document have it clearly said.
Martin was right and didn't make any mistake (in case that document is not outadated).

http://www.hotweb.se/aspportal1/scripts/v5.3a-eng.pdf

6.3.2 Signal arrangement:
6.3.2.1 For constant weight, constant weight without fins and free immersion, one or several signals will be
placed at the anticipated depth of the record attempt bearing a number corresponding to the depth in
meters and signed by the International AIDA Judges on the day of the attempt.
The following submissions will be used to witness the performance:
· the freediver bringing up a marker ("depth tag") previously signed by the 2 International Judges.
AND
· a video recording on a new videocassette of the capture of the marker by a camera secured at the
anticipated depth, signed by the 2 International Judges prior to its immersion.
However, in free immersion and in constant weight without fins, it is permissible to touch only the end
plate by hand without taking the marker.

 

[TheDude]

This is getting very ridiculous... In the document posted by Juka it is clearly stated that you don't need to use a tag. Now Bill states that you have to...

 

[Billextreme]

Ok, again....

The Regulation-Appendix-2007, the one you can download at AIDA website over-rule record regulation v5.3a. For the specific discipline(CNF-CWT) you have to look under section 3 in the competition rules v11.2.

have a nice day
/B

 

[CEngelbrecht]

This situation is a damn mess, because in order to correctly organize a record attempt right now, you actually have to refer to three different AIDA documents (!).
* The records regulations 5.3a, dating back from 2003
* The competition regulations 11.2 from 2006
* The appendices from June '07, stating that the competition regulations over-rules the record rules from '03 on many details, eg. the safety lanyard, the tag, etc. The reason this was written was that quite many details differ from competitions to records on paper, but the AIDA board wishes the changes in competitions (lanyard, etc.) to be included in records as well. AIDA just haven't had the time and manhours to update the records document yet, so the appendices was written to save time and have records keep happening in the meantime.

In Dahab, not even the onsite judges could figure out how to interpret this confusion. And so they made the wrong decision, allowing Martin to dive without either lanyard or tag. But much of it is also AIDA's own fault, our documents is just too big a mess right now.

And BTW, to hell with AIDA losing face. What's more important is protecting the performance of the athlete. Martin did the dive with the permit from the onsite judges. It's our own fault, but again we lack the manpower to update the paperwork.

Anyway, that's just my personal opinion.

 

[littlefreediver]

Has anyone thought of charging an AIDA fee to all members/divers (on top of national membership) so that we can employ someone to look at all this stuff and manage it efficiently on an ongoing basis? Freediving is growing, the media is starting to sit up and pay attention and we need to be more professional. This doesn't detract from all the fabulous work everyone does on a volunteer basis, but perhaps we need to face facts and move with the times... Just a thought...

 

[samdive]

I proposed loads of times whilst I was on the Board that at least certain people in AIDA should be paid for their job (particularly the education arm which does raise a lot of money that at present, I have no idea how AIDA spends it) but any such suggestion was always shouted down very quickly.... I guess if they were paid, they'd have to be a bit more accountable!

 

[William W]

And BTW, to hell with AIDA losing face. What's more important is protecting the performance of the athlete. Martin did the dive with the permit from the onsite judges.

Hi Chris,

I agree with your point but would like to clarify something: When you mention protecting the performance of the athlete, which athlete are you referring to - Martin, William Trubridge or the next person to attempt the record or the person attempting a PB in a competition? All of these people need to be considered in this decision and so far the only person being considered is Martin.

I personally agree that Martin should have the record but not if the rest of us must continue to follow a different set of rules. There is a big difference in a performance with a tag versus one without...trust me I have been training both ways and without the tag I have a much faster dive profile and a much easier dive. Not only is there the time delay on the bottom while you find, grab and secure the tag on your person but, there is the psychology of wondering if it will still be there when you surface. The fact is that Martins dive was not the same as William Trubridges dive because he was allowed to do this without a tag. Fine, give Martin the record but change the rules so that William can attempt to reclaim the record following the same rules that Martin set the record with. I am planning to also attempt this record, in competition later this year, how is it fair for me to have to follow a different set of rules than Martin? The justification cannot be that AIDA screwed up...sorry that just does not cut it.

In my opinion AIDA has two choices:

1 - Ratify Martins record and change the rules to create a level playing field for everyone in the sport.

Or

2 - Do not ratify Martins record and pay for him to have a second attempt at the record.

Since AIDA chooses the judges for every WR Attempt and the athletes do not get to choose a judge except to request proximity to the location of the attempt when possible, then AIDA has by default become fully responsible for any and all problems that relate to judge error. In no way should the previous record holder or the next person attempting the record be punished for the mistake of AIDA or its judges and that is exactly what happens with the current decision by the AIDA Board in Ratifying this record without changing the rules. William or myself in attempting Martins record must follow more difficult rules to achieve a performance that would be greater in depth than Martins...this is simply unacceptable! This also means that anyone competing in this discipline, regardless of the depth, is competing under a stricter standard than the ones used to set the current World Record...again unacceptable!

It is time that AIDA starts looking at the interests of ALL of the athletes in this sport and not just the one in the individual performance in question.

I respect Martin's dive and I hope that he will be given the record but only if AIDA changes the rules for everyone and not one individual.

Best regards,

William W...not Trubridge

 

[littlefreediver]

Hey Will (W)

Great to see you entering the debate. I was wondering when you were going to join in as you're crucial to this whole discussion, and are never one to pipe down when it gets a bit hairy! Let's hope AIDA hears our voices and comes to a decision on this quickly, one way or another (ie the EITHER / OR option, but not BOTH).

Hugs to you, mate!
x
S

 

[telekonos]

first a fall i must congratulate martin on his dive and i respect him and his crew for the hard work they did in dahab .... rough weather , the flu and they came up with the record congratulations ....

but i must protest because there was simply "NO TAG" which was the rule ... and on the evening of the record i was sitting with a bunch of freedivers and they were saying "MAY BE IF THE AIDA SAW THE VIDEO THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT IT AS A RECORD" .. i thought ohh shit ...

any way it is accepted by AIDA as the new world record ..... but the rules are not respected .... so something has to be done and i support what william W said... because the main purpose of a ruling party (AIDA in this case) is to be FAIR FOR EVERYONE ....

Cheers

hamza

 

[CEngelbrecht]

First of all, the disciplinary committee hasn't decided on the issue yet, and I'm a committee member, so maybe I shouldn't even be talking about this. But still...

Human error occurs. We cannot safe guard us completely against this. I don't agree that the rules should change because of a human screwup or misinterpretation.

I understand that tag / no tag can make a marginal difference, particularly at depths like these. I understand that Martin may have gotten an advantage in his dive denied to eg. William T. But, the situation had not been different, if it had been William T. diving i Dahab and not Martin, William T. would then have gotten the wrongful advantage. That's the nature of this screwup, you know what I mean?

The board's intention is that the lanyard and the tag are mandatory, comps or recs. They have their reasons for wanting this philosophy. So, let it stay enforced for any future attempts. That it hasn't in this case, is due to document confusion and human error.

After this, all we can do is make efforts to keep the AIDA judges better updated with current procedures, and try to speed up the updating of documents.

 

[glennv]

So if for the sake of argument some judges make a "human error" in gratifying a record where the diver pulled himself up 4 times on the rope in a CNF dive (much exaggerated example alert), you would similarly argue not change the rules to allow grabbing (sounds logical) but still allow the record to be valid because it was just human error ??????
I miss the logic in this reasoning.

Either you say it was human error by the responsible judges on site , sorry but no record and we will take every measure possible to make sure it does never happen again, or you say it was no error and change the rules. Any other decision sounds ridiculous to me and makes the DC a laughing matter, which i think is not the intention. We all want the best for all athletes, but stepping over instead of correcting (human) errors is not the way forward for AIDA to be taken serious anymore.

 

[TheDude]

The only way to resolve this in my opinion will be at the upcoming WC. There all three contestants for this record (might be more of them of course) can measure themselves against each other in same conditions for all. I hope this controversial record will be broken there.

 

[Will]

I understand that tag / no tag can make a marginal difference, particularly at depths like these. I understand that Martin may have gotten an advantage in his dive denied to eg. William T. But, the situation had not been different, if it had been William T. diving i Dahab and not Martin, William T. would then have gotten the wrongful advantage. That's the nature of this screwup, you know what I mean?

Hi Chris,
So in your opinion the 'nature of the screw-up' is:

You understand that the error gave Martin an advantage, but you believe that the current WR holder and those who are to attempt the WR in the future should be the ones penalised for this error, rather than Martin, who was involved in causing the error?​

I also find it very interesting that you use the adjective 'wrongful' to describe the 'advantage.'

It is important to remember that this is not a case of Trubridge v.s. Stepanek or Trubridge v.s. AIDA.
What is happening here is a growing group of concerned freedivers are trying to hold AIDA to a consistent decision between this attempt and future dives. Since it is something that potentially affects all AIDA freedivers we should ALL have the right to voice our concerns.
It looks like this is a decision that should be made by both disciplinary and technical committees. In court trials, a law can be re-interpreted or even changed to set a precedent for future similar cases. I think that is what needs to happen here.
Since the DC does not accept 'spam' if you are concerned about how this decision may affect future dives then it seems you should address your concern to the technical committee. TC_AIDA@yahoogroups.com
William Trubridge

 

[efattah]

I respect Martin's great dive, but I have to agree with William T. and William W. on this issue.

I would add several points:
- In 2001 before my 82m WR CW dive, we asked AIDA if we could do the dive without a tag. We were told that the tag was mandatory.
- After hundreds of dives, I will say that for me, in CW with fins, the tag makes about a 3m difference with a mask, and 4-5m difference with no mask or using various types of fluid goggles
- What I mean is that if I am diving with a mask, and I am allowed to announce a depth 3m more (but not be required to grab the tag), then I would announce 3m more and not get a tag, rather than 3m less and get the tag
- I think the difference without fins is even more. So Martin's dive, although excellent, is about equal to no more than 83m - 3m = 80m (w/tag), which is less than the record of 82m (w/tag)
- So in my opinion the dive was less than the current record
- It appears Martin may have been sick (etc.), so he probably has the capacity to do a much deeper depth, but we are not discussing whether he CAN break the record, but whether he DID break the record
- If the AIDA judges are allowed to make errors which affect the performance, then one day we will end up with an unbreakable record
- For example, suppose in the future, the CNF record is 120m, and suppose the record has not been broken for 15 YEARS. It is considered unbreakable. Then one day a diver does the dive with no tag and does 122m. It was a judge's error, but the record counts. In such a situation, the 122m record may never be broken, because everyone else afterwards will have to use a tag.
- Under the current rules, it is possible that the athlete could breathe pure oxygen before his static apnea or dynamic apnea, and do 15 minutes or 300m+, and then the judges could 'make an error' and not realize that the athlete did anything wrong, ratify the record, and then the AIDA board is forced to accept the record. There is NOTHING in the current rules which would allow the AIDA board to over-rule a 15 minute static record done 'accidentally' on pure oxygen.
- I would suggest that the rules should say something like this:

1. The AIDA board can over-rule the decision of the on-site AIDA judges, if and only if the error made by the on-site judges affects the performance of the dive. If the AIDA board over-rules the decisions of the on-site AIDA judges, then AIDA is responsible for refunding the athlete for all expenses related to the record.

This means that for Mifsud, either
A) His record would be accepted (no okay sign would be considered no performance gain)
OR
B) His record would be rejected and he would be refunded thousands of Euros for the event

People may argue that AIDA doesn't have enough money to refund an athlete. Well, then it should get insurance to cover itself for its own errors. And if errors continue to occur, then AIDA becomes irrelevant anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Personally I think the fundamental problem is far more complicated. I think the real problem is that AIDA is a non-profit organization. In my opinion, AIDA should be a for-profit organization, with paid employees, with people who actually accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[trux]

Please explain me something: Bill Stromberg (the President of AIDA for those who are not aware of it) claimed in the post #62:

If you do an attempt without lanyard you need at least one safety diver UNDER the plate.

In the same time, Chris Engelbrecht (who is on AIDA's disciplinary committee) just wrote above:

The board's intention is that the lanyard and the tag are mandatory, comps or recs. They have their reasons for wanting this philosophy. So, let it stay enforced for any future attempts.

Well, I see in the competition rules v11.2 that serve as record rules appendix, this paragraph:

2.2.1
[FONT=Verdana,Verdana]A safety lanyard is mandatory for all depth events. [/FONT]

I do not know if the rule is really valid, or if there is another rule or another appendix of the appendix that overrules this rule, the original rule, or the appendix of them, but however it is, and whatever the real rule is, it means that either the president (Bill) or a member of the committee (Chris) is wrong. And I am afraid that's in fact even much more serious issue than that three international judges (of three present ones) failed at an event. It means there is something really wrong with the rules, if even the very top officials are not able to interpret them properly and equally.

 

[Walrus]

The rules are a mess with the 3 different documents, still you would think at least one of them has watched the video of a previous record attempt and seen the diver actually use a tag. Martin himself was a judge for a CNF world record dive and he(we) made the athlete grab a tag. Just like to add that I'm really glad there is an AIDA and there are people that volunteer their own free time so that this sport can actually exist. For those that have never done any volunteer work you normally hear more complaints then thanks. :head
No system and no person is perfect, this particular situation is no doubt tough for the AIDA board and committee members also. I Hope that perhaps this situation can influence the Technical commision to have a review of the tag rule for CNF. My guess is the majority of CNF divers would far prefer to not have to use a tag, performances would be better without them. If it's not a safety issue why force a rule that has no real benefit ?




Cheers,
Wal

 

[ADR]

Well said Wal - perhaps one of the calmest and most balanced views so far on this thread. I agree 100% with you.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Please explain me something: Bill Stromberg (the President of AIDA for those who are not aware of it) claimed in the post #62:
"If you do an attempt without lanyard you need at least one safety diver UNDER the plate."

In the same time, Chris Engelbrecht (who is on AIDA's disciplinary committee) just wrote above:
"The board's intention is that the lanyard and the tag are mandatory, comps or recs. They have their reasons for wanting this philosophy. So, let it stay enforced for any future attempts."

I'm the one that is wrong. Bill phoned me this morning and reminded me that lanyards are NOT mandatory in records, where tags are. Aparently, the appendices is to be interpreted so that §2 of comp rules 11.2 does not apply to recs rules 5.3, but §3 does. §2 involves the lanyard which doesn't apply to records, §3 involves the tag, which then does apply to records, giving the current appendices.
[...SIGH...]
I'm an AIDA judge myself, and I can't figure it out either. Illustrates the confusion once again, I suppose.

And to William T.: About that the Disciplinary Committee's mail being closed and all; Official complaints should be send to me as the secretary of the committee, and my e-mail address can be found on AIDA's website (or though I'm at the bottom of the DC page, maybe that's not that fortunate).
And also, just that people discuss these topics here on Deeperblue mean that they get through to the AIDA people. Everybody reads Deeperblue, this is your chain of communication to AIDA. We're not the CMAS board, we pee in our wetsuits too.
And Will, please bear with my English, it's not my native language. Don't read to much into individual words I may use wrongfully in times of stress.

Ach! Screw it, I'm going diving...