83 Cnf - New Wr

[cebaztian]

Sebastian,
From what i can remember records can't be validated if the dive incured penalty points. So if AIDA decided this option then they are again going against their own regulations.

So be it - all else is worse. When we have read all the paragraphs and taken into consderation human error - at the end of the day - one has to base a judgement on something that feels good. Its called diplomacy - maybe not smart - but wise.

Sebastian

 

[Billextreme]

bam bam

What AIDA does is using our information channels to them that take part of AIDA as members. When it comes to penalty and world records, there is no WR done in competitions that include penalties. BUT when we talk about world records done in a separate WR attempt there could be, in special circumstances, a different approaches how to solve a “catch 22” situation.

To Roland
Our judges can be trusted, but they can make mistake just like anyone else. Now we try to make this right, but as you know, there are two sides on a coin. ...what is most fair, most diplomatic and most wise?

/B

 

[bam bam]

Bill:
Thank you for clearing up my last point regarding the penalty points for record attempts.

So by being diplomatic you can brake your own regulations? That can't be right, because the regulations were put in there to be fair in the first place. That doesn't rule out for them to be changed/ammended/updated to adapt to the current times. but that wasn't done so AIDA is breaking them. How is that "wise"?

Roland (don't shoot the messenger!)
Martin can be blamed, or more rightly the person who organised the event (was that martin?) because of point 3.5 in the "Regulation for the Recognition of Records" doc on AIDA's Site (20.11.2003)

3.5 The organizer, and not the AIDA International Judges, is responsible for the entire event, including the safety of all persons present.

 

[glennv]

If i was Martin (which i am clearly not) , I would not even want this record anymore.
A record is only valid to me if
1. I myself believe I did the record and did it under the same circumstances and rules as the old record i just broke and all other athletes will at least have to repeat my great effort under these same conditions and rules to beat me again.
2. The rest of the community that matters to me as a freediver agrees with me getting the record in a fair and deserved way.
I am sure Martin also reads this board and must feel pretty pissed about the whole deal.
I have lots and lots of respect for him as one of the greatest freedivers currently around , but he should respect and understand Wills (and others) point. If it would have been the reverse how would he feel ?
And I seriously doubt if he did not realize with all his experience as a competitor and judge that him diving without the tag would not create a big fuzz in the community.

For the bureaucratic AIDA DC and boards decisions I have absolutely no understanding whatsoever and see no valid reasoning for this crazy decision (especially if it does not go hand in hand with a rule change to level the playing feeld for all future athletes). Big step backwards that will have some negative impact on the sport.

 

[Ondro]

Guys, it is only 1 meter difference from the old record What about breaking this new record on Triple depth - there are few more meters to the bottom on Blue Hole

Ok, just kidding... In fact, I am quite sad to see there are so many negative feelings ...especially when discussing about freediving - sport we all like so much

Anyway, if I could vote, I would be for changing the rules to "no tag".

O.

 

[fcallagy]

Surely martin, whom i have the greatest respect for and with or without a tag this was a great dive, and the judges knew this was going to cause a problem. All the other cwnf dives used a tag afaik. did they therfore think this was not going to be an issue? At comps surely the carrying back of the tag in certain positions is discussed ie I find velcro good or i put it in my hood etc.
When they were discussing where to put the tag did someone suddenly say leave out the tag, theres no need for it and all the other divers made the mistake of bringing it back when really they did not need too. They must have known something was going to be said about it.
Again its a pity for martin but he is a very experianced athleth and will come back from this. Will still holds the record at present in my book. ( my books not worth a huge pile I know)

 

[Kars]

Dear Roland,

I don't shift ANY blame on the athlete, in my view the Judges are fully responsible and should be held accounteble.

The only thing I tried to communicate is that sometimes a sentient athlete can help prevent errors others are bount to make merly by just asking a question.

When ones asks a judge a question about the rules, one expects them to be able to show it and tell it with confidence. When one would notice a hesitation, a lack of confidence by the Judge one could ask them to double check. - I want to help my fellow man avoiding any costly mistakes. It's a curtacy, emphatic thing to do.

About the latest compromise and bending of the rules.
I hate it.
Like stated above, it creates discrimination and favourtism.
Most importantly,This compromise, corruption, violates the athletes' rights, all athletes' rights.

And for what? MONEY, - again

Yes I'm very disapointed with some people's lack of spine, spirit and courage.

Kars

 

[adax]

I also did support the opinion, that Martin's record should not be valid.

But what was done, was done; decisions made, were made. There is really no sense to try to dig this matter anymore, because there is NO good solution!

There can be no comparisons to criminal law (see few posts back), because it does exist for hundreds of years, whereas AIDA rules are just being created. I am still rather thinking of comparison with track&field athletics - if a long jump (or 100 m sprint) WR had been done a few days before the wind measurment was introduced with a strong wind support, it would have also been unfair towards all the other athletes and create a long gap before it could be broken again already with the new rules. But the more valuable would be the new WR done according to the new rules.

Or maybe use the same scheme which happened in javelin throw a few years back (they changed the javelin parameters (balance), so it was not possible to throw as far as before). Let's consider Martin's record (or anyone's that will brake it with or without a tag by the time new rules are set) the last record in the old era and let us start new record tables under the new rules. So the first officially recognised dive with the new rules, with tag will be a WR (be it 10 or 70 m). And than it will go the normal way again. I bet we will be at 84 m with tag in less than 1 year! And if AIDA want WR only with tag they should be motivated by this to come with the unified rules pretty quickly.

AIDA unify the rules, all athletes start training with tag. Those who want to brake the present WR, break it by the time the new rules are set. And let we all live in peace.

Howgh!

 

[shoutatthesky]

Given that this record has been confirmed I think it is only fair to eliminate the requirement for a tag. The confirmation to the judges that the depth has been reached can be given by camera, by scuba divers, or depth recording devices. Can it not?
If the requirement to use a tag is retained then I think the best outcome would be for someone to break the 'record' convincingly (85m?) and for AIDA to take a thorough look at what it can do to avoid a similar incident in the future. AIDA is such an asset to freedivers that I am sure the support would be forthcoming if their needs were communicated wisely. We all have much to learn and contribute.

 

[wolleneugebauer]

Given that this record has been confirmed I think it is only fair to eliminate the requirement for a tag. The confirmation to the judges that the depth has been reached can be given by camera, by scuba divers, or depth recording devices. Can it not?
If the requirement to use a tag is retained then I think the best outcome would be for someone to break the 'record' convincingly (85m?) and for AIDA to take a thorough look at what it can do to avoid a similar incident in the future. AIDA is such an asset to freedivers that I am sure the support would be forthcoming if their needs were communicated wisely. W e all have much to learn and contribute.

good idea!
a tag is actually a relict from yesterday - the time before we had calibrated electronic gauges.
sorry, wolle

 

[Budho]

So, the AIDA DC accepts in full Mr. Stepanek's 83m CNF attempt as official world record. Mr. Trubridge or similar valid party has from this date 30 days to appeal this decision (no later than October 17th 2007 12:00:00 GMT). Appeal can be send to either info@aida-international.org or alternatively to the AIDA President on bill.stromberg@aida-international.org.

I think this is a chance to solve this case in the right way.
Ales

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Really shame on AIDA... how can it just ignore the opinion of the freediving community like that? Things are going in the wrong direction. Now I can understand why some people choose not to compete or break records under AIDA. It would not come as a surpirse if Will would follow. Quite justyfiably.
Miha

Will you give us a [censored] break?! You think it was an easy decision to make? You really think that the opinions expressed in here during all this bull[censored] has been ignored???

Bill's opinion is that Deeperblue shouldn't be an official forum during AIDA work. Personally I say bull[censored]. DB is de facto where apneists hang out, and as an AIDA man I refuse to ignore what people say in here.

And no, the tag is still MANDATORY for all future attempts in CNF. A special excemption was deemed necessary in this case, with the aim of none ever having to be made again. The judges made an error, and by the DC it is deemed that this was in part caused by a confusing document situation we have in AIDA right now (that hopefully ends within this year...). This situation is caused by the fact that AIDA can't pay paper people salaries, and this is because AIDA don't dare taking the full step and charging yearly fees by all registered freedivers to better make ends meet, because they know that the freedivers will stall at that, because the agency people will always look like fascist dictators and what are they gonna spend my money on?

[censored] happens! At least from now on you're all sure about that particular detail, right? All I can say is that the perfect compromise satisfies no one.

Whenever the guys start moving past 90 or 100 in CNF, I'm sure that this footnote on Stepanek's 83 will be remembered as a stupid [censored]up, but that the game went on.

Dang! I expected flag, but nothing like this [censored]...

 

[Will]

Chris, why is it that you feel motivated to respond to the most irrelevant posts, but not the logical and pertinent questions that are addressed specifically to you?
In particular (and it is the 3rd time it has been iterated), how did the DC come to its as yet unjustified conclusion, when the AIDA regulations specifically state that:

IF an error is made that affects the validity of the athlete's performance (which you have admitted is what happened).

THEN the on-site judges decision can be overturned.

This is the only piece of information you needed to make your decision, so I do not sympathize with your complaints about it having been difficult.
The error was not caused by a "confusing document situation" (I and others were able to read and interpret it just fine, and if that doesn't work just call Bill or another up-to-date judge), nor by the fact that judges are volunteers (they are aware of this fact when they volunteer, so cannot use it as an excuse afterwards), the error was caused by negligence on behalf of Martin (organiser and athlete and therefore responsible for executing the rules) and the two on-site judges, and therefore, as written in the AIDA regulations, they are the only ones who should be punished, not the past and future WR attempters, who have nothing to do with their error!!

At any rate, thankfully this decision is now out of the hands of you and the rest of the DC.

 

[kelp princess]

Given that this record has been confirmed I think it is only fair to eliminate the requirement for a tag. The confirmation to the judges that the depth has been reached can be given by camera, by scuba divers, or depth recording devices. Can it not?
If the requirement to use a tag is retained then I think the best outcome would be for someone to break the 'record' convincingly (85m?) and for AIDA to take a thorough look at what it can do to avoid a similar incident in the future. AIDA is such an asset to freedivers that I am sure the support would be forthcoming if their needs were communicated wisely. We all have much to learn and contribute.

i love that your focus is solutions-oriented, adam, and that you recognize a group like AIDA is important to the freediving community.

transparent and open dialogue is most needed; what's great about DeeperBlue is that in this forum we find the start of that open-dialogue.

i'd like to suggest (to AIDA) a formal discussion on the pros and cons of other solutions (tags, no tags, videos etc).
since the AIDA has ruled that martin's record stays as it is (and congratulations to you martin!) perhaps AIDA should have the past (i'm making arbitrary numbers up now) 5 record holders –including martin and william T. –convene and decide themselves as a group what makes the most sense. in my humble opinion a quorum of the atheletes is really needed and this would go a long way in AIDA demonstrating that they not only want to be perceived as judicious but more importantly that they are willing to be fair and thoughtful in considering how to improve the process. there's a reason why they are called "growing pains" 'cuz it hurts :crutch

now seems to be one of those rare oppty's in life to make productive progress. and who better to inform the process than the people who have to fulfill it and who know the challenges.

just a thought.....

kp

 

[fcallagy]

I have been argueing againest this decision but we should all realise that the guys who made the decision have not benefitted by it they are doing this volunatrily. Imagine you give some time to try and make a better community and get blasted for your decision, it cant be nice. So lets try to keep this discussion in general at Aida not at Chris or Bill who are posting here at least and giving up their time. If it really makes you mad volunteer to work for Aida.
I can appreciate anything Will says as the decision directly affects him.

 

[Kars]

Yeah people, swallow it, don't rock the boat, stay in line, follow the sheep's ass in front of you, don't think, doublethink, be patriotic don't stand up for your neighbour's rights you may 'insult' some leader and have your 'reputation' blown.

Oh yeah you know who I am referring too, the 90% of people who may bleat a few times but in the end will go allong with everything! < and sometimes wonder why they get what they deserve? >

About joining the AIDA board to change it from inside out, I have tried it. I can tell you it's not possible to clean up because EVERYBODY has guilt. They all team up together against any, ANY treat. Even when you leave the past at rest and propose some changes that (may)prevent future corruption.

And it's not a AIDA specific problem, it's a problem of any group of people.
I suggest for those who care to educate oneself about the dynamics and the personality-types involved. Things will become rather predictable.

In general, the faster the concerned people react and speak up the better it is for the rights of the individual.

Just obay your spirit, emphatise with victem(s) and have the courage to stand up to corruption.

Yes I'm still very pissed!

Kars

 

[samdive]

I agree with Feargus - if you don't like it, join the Board and try and change it from within...

I did, and it sucked - working for AIDA is tough, respect is due to anyone who gives up that amount of time and energy - when all you ever get back is moans....

give these guys a break, come on, its only a little bit of plastic at the end of the day and I don't believe anyone really believes Martin would not have made the dive if he'd have to pick it up!

 

[fcallagy]

Kars
What corruption? am i being blind? are the aida board getting a kickback i dont see? For someone to be corrupt there must be a gain in it for them. In any group dynamic yes certain people will adopt instantly to roles. I have seen it so many times. several people trying to lead, always a joker in there somewhere that in reality is a unhappy person that wants company and acknowledgment/affirmation.
The one rule of group work that I always adhere to is the 80/20 rule. That 80% of the work will be done by 20% of the people. You can apply it to any group any where. Also the same rule regarding complaining. When you complain 80% of the people you complain to dont really care about your problem and the other 20% are kind of glad you have the problem in the first place.
What happened to love peace and water?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Just obay your spirit, emphatise with victem(s) and have the courage to stand up to corruption.
Yes I'm still very pissed!

Your mama!

You talk like AIDA is nothing but Saddam Husseins or George Bushes. What does AIDA have that would corrupt its leadership to such a degree? Granted, AIDA's problem is a never-ending partial incompetence, but there's a huge difference. Since '94 AIDA has had a continous tendency to screw up every now and again, either in the leadership or down to the personnel. Hell, I'm part of that too. That's life. Name me a sport where the politicians never screw up? All I demand (of myself as well) is that we somehow learn from the aparently inevitable mistakes as we go along. (I doubt that this mess here will be used for otherwise.)

Chris, why is it that you feel motivated to respond to the most irrelevant posts, but not the logical and pertinent questions that are addressed specifically to you?
In particular (and it is the 3rd time it has been iterated), how did the DC come to its as yet unjustified conclusion, when the AIDA regulations specifically state that:

IF an error is made that affects the validity of the athlete's performance (which you have admitted is what happened).

THEN the on-site judges decision can be overturned.

This is the only piece of information you needed to make your decision, so I do not sympathize with your complaints about it having been difficult.
The error was not caused by a "confusing document situation" (I and others were able to read and interpret it just fine, and if that doesn't work just call Bill or another up-to-date judge), nor by the fact that judges are volunteers (they are aware of this fact when they volunteer, so cannot use it as an excuse afterwards), the error was caused by negligence on behalf of Martin (organiser and athlete and therefore responsible for executing the rules) and the two on-site judges, and therefore, as written in the AIDA regulations, they are the only ones who should be punished, not the past and future WR attempters, who have nothing to do with their error!!

At any rate, thankfully this decision is now out of the hands of you and the rest of the DC.

Your grandmama!

Will, there's nothing I can say or do that will be a satisfactory answer for you, simply because this decision goes against your personal sportive interests. (And well, duh, what would I do?)

Aparently, we can't even agree on what's an 'unjustified' decision, but remember, in here right now, snapping in this thread, I'm not talking as a DC representative. In here, I'm an aquatic ape snapping at the unreasonable coming from other aquatic apes.

But by all means, let's take the semantics:

No one has stated that 'the error affected the validity of the athlete's performance'! Other means of validation were taken into account (video, what ever), now that that frickin' tag did not come in use. It appears proven that the ape got to the plate and came back again, had his dive cleared. Can the tag violation be accepted due to the special circumstances? Do we protect the performance? Has the freedive been completed to a certain acceptable degree, even if an agreed-upon philosophy was not fulfilled (the tag)? This is what five people in the DC voted yes to.

I doubt you can ever grasp that perspective, because it's not your dive in question. Go figure. All I can say is that had the dive report stated 'Trubridge' in the heading in stead of 'Stepanek' and with the same circumstances and bla bla bla, I would have voted exactly the same. Even if you had said things about my mama in the past, I would have voted the same.

 

[Kars]

Who has voted what?
Who has refrained from voting?

Now, let's see how transparent AIDA is.


Oh Chris, I've recently changed it into:

Love, COURAGE and water,

For obvious reasons.

Kars