AIDA ** course changes

[rxcnc2]

My 5 cents:

• if AIDA *,** are about learning what is freediving, then ok 2 days - but I could just as well read a book.
  
• if it's about learning to freedive myself, then I would certainly opt for longer courses, definitely with more than one dive(!).

This said, it's clear that some places are better off than others, with a deep dive a short swim away, maybe warm waters, maybe lots of people queuing up to take a course... what can you do?

 

[samdive]

post deleted

 

[Billextreme]

Sam,

Why not use the AIDA forum?

That is the place for AIDA people to post there questions and have answers.
And that is also the place to have internal discussion between instructors.

have a nice day
/B

 

[Budho]

Finally a good point. Thisi is a topic for AIDA Forum.
Personaly I like the extension. I found 2 open water sesions not sufficient for some students to master all this skills unles they are already very capable.
Ales Seliskar

 

[Kars]

Hello people,

I'm Kars, just a 2* freediver, two stars of the old AIDA style, when AIDA had just 3 level's.
I freedive now for 7 years, have participated in numerous events, many competitions including several World Championships'.

Now onto the AIDA course changes:

2 day -> 2,5 day course.

First what is exactly mend by 2,5 day?
Maybe they mean 20 hours, instead of 16? In this case one could still cram it into a weekend.

When they truly mean you have to spread it over two and a half days, it indeed is not practical because of societies rhythm.

Disappointingly I've not heard any motivation why the two days were changed into 2,5 days, has anyone heard of any? - please post it here!

On the motivation of increasing MI CC numbers and time.
I tent to agree with the CC numbers, because instructors in my view need to have plenty of experience.
But in order to insure the instructor knows and can perform the "mouth-full" equalisation a test with partially full lungs can be developed. A lesser option would be to have the Instructor dive to 50m, where I think most people need the "Mouth-full". This is the lesser option, because in some area's it's very hard to find a good freediving spot of 50m of depth.

Generally in my view the student has to prove his abilities to the instructor, and when he has done so he deserves the certificate. I think it does not depend on time, but on skills.


Onto the AIDA communication issues.

I find it VERY DISTURBING and disappointing that a individual putting forward a good point is simply told no because he or she is just ONE person complaining!

For me it's just a delaying and dismissing technique, not an argument.

- I'm still waiting for the EC 2,5 day arguments.


With the signals I'm getting about AIDA, - the silence - , I sense things are going downhill as more people loose patience and faith, due to various decisions and experiences, especially those that have invested much into this organisation.

I think AIDA should be more realistic in their ambitions, and concentrate on what is the core reasons for AIDA's being, competition.
I rather see AIDA being good in one area, than mediocre in many.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

PS.
I just read the new post, can anyone please post a link to the AIDA int forum topic when it's created?

 

[Ale Andres]

Well, there are some things to talk about...
First of all, when Linda said that my information about the 100 % increase in the fee was incorrect i went to see that newsletter, because i was absolutely sure about that, and found that i misundertood what i read...quoting....
"we also decide to request instructors to renew before April 1st of the year, after this date renewal fee will be raised to 100 euro"
I'm sorry, all this time i was wrong...language problems...but, if the EC would answer the e mail i sent about this on November 8th, we could have avoided this misunderstanding.( I don't understand why i should ask Sam Kirby about my e-mail moderated, i don't want to take part in problems between other people )
About how many open water sessions i teach...two, but one is from shore ( can be made for * and ** ) and i'm not blaming AIDA for that.
About the CCs...i don't want to have my own CCs, i want to give my students AIDA CCs, this is what it is supposed to be, right? if not, we're using AIDA's name to teach any other thing, but not AIDA courses, and it's not correct.
If an instructor can't mouth fill, why is he instructor? shouldn't we ask the instructor trainer? or is not mandatory for being instructor ? ( sorry, i don't remember this ) and nobody can ensure that after 75 courses teached that instructor will be able to mouth fill...and i don't agree that raises the chances.
And Linda, don't bit your thonge, i'm adult and can hear other people and i can accept if i'm wrong, the hole porpose of this is to make something better, right?

 

[samdive]

post deleted

 

[cebaztian]

Hey everyone,
Looking at what happened around the instructors exams which are very poorly designed // This Year has started extremely badly for AIDA. //
The exams need to be thought of thoroughly and rewritten, along with the rules that are not systematic and concise enough to be the base of an exam. Nor a competition, really - I think the fact that competitions have worked so far is more because people knew what was meant in the rules and were willing to go by that, and not because they were bound by the rules//AIDA currently feels like a garage business that just happens to have members in a lot of countries. And as long as newsletters are sent out as word documents attached to emails without text in them (wtf?) and certifications are sent to a person (Pim) instead of an office (certifications@aida...) the lack of professionalism will always be strikingly visible// to make life harder for us but by expecting professionalim - which is not a bad thing, mind You - but doesn't lead by example. Richard

Harsh words Richard. In the end AIDA is all we have, this our vehicle we have choosen to the future of apnea. Since 1994 it has been an association of good friends, but things has chnaged.
Education has become business, one can earn money as a freedive instructor.
National records and world records have become sought after and important.

The fact that AIDA now charges the organisation for doing a competition, the organizers and athletes can start demand more profesionality. Same with Aida Edudcation, lots of money is moving into Aida that way.

But changing the name of the EC office to Certifications@ wont change the fact that there are always PERSONS behind every function and I rather see who sends me mails.

Sebastian

 

[cebaztian]

Sam,
Why not use the AIDA forum?
/B

I sometimes take a look there, but there is no one there. I post something and get no response.

Sebastian

 

[trullalla]

Well, there are some things to talk about...
First of all, when Linda said that my information about the 100 % increase in the fee was incorrect i went to see that newsletter, because i was absolutely sure about that, and found that i misundertood what i read...quoting....
"we also decide to request instructors to renew before April 1st of the year, after this date renewal fee will be raised to 100 euro"
I'm sorry, all this time i was wrong...language problems...but, if the EC would answer the e mail i sent about this on November 8th, we could have avoided this misunderstanding.

ale, i can assure you the the EC is answering all mail coming form the instructors. please check which email you sent your mail to, maybe it's not the right one.

About how many open water sessions i teach...two, but one is from shore ( can be made for * and ** ) and i'm not blaming AIDA for that.
About the CCs...i don't want to have my own CCs, i want to give my students AIDA CCs, this is what it is supposed to be, right? if not, we're using AIDA's name to teach any other thing, but not AIDA courses, and it's not correct.

yes and no. i teach aida courses and give certification, but i also teach courses, or particular skills, and i don't do it in the name of aida.

If an instructor can't mouth fill, why is he instructor? shouldn't we ask the instructor trainer? or is not mandatory for being instructor ?

yes, it should be mandatory. but unfortunately there are still instructors and instructor trainers of the old school that got their status without going through the whole process of courses and examinations, and somehow they don't feel like they have to update to the new standards.

( sorry, i don't remember this ) and nobody can ensure that after 75 courses teached that instructor will be able to mouth fill...and i don't agree that raises the chances.

yes, and i said that in my previous post, but at least it increases the chances and gives more experience to the instructor. if you teach big courses with assistants or multiple instructors, you might be able to become master instructor after having taught just a couple of courses. that is what we don't want.

And Linda, don't bit your thonge, i'm adult and can hear other people and i can accept if i'm wrong, the hole porpose of this is to make something better, right?

thank you for that. but as part of the EC i should have not taken part to this discussion even if i'm just speaking for myself. and i'm sure most of my colleagues are not very happy about this.

linda

 

[trullalla]

Hello people,

I'm Kars, just a 2* freediver, two stars of the old AIDA style, when AIDA had just 3 level's.

Disappointingly I've not heard any motivation why the two days were changed into 2,5 days, has anyone heard of any? - please post it here!

kars, aida is communicating with its instructors and instructor trainers mainly through monthly newsletters.
and the instructors that complained to aida about the extension of the course (sam and ben) got the explanation for that.

aida is not communicating with you because by being a 2*freediver you don't have to know about all the changing in the teaching standards or whatever else.
if you have a specific questions that you would like to address to aida, write a mail to the address you find on the aida website.

linda

 

[Kars]

Dear Linda,

So apparently Sam and Ben both should have got good reasons why AIDA changed it's 2* into 2,5 days.

Sam and Ben let's hear what was explained, you cannot expect me or others to support you fully without having ALL the facts. We're adults and we can handle the truth, and see through the deceptions and smell the lies. So please help us out, so we can help you.


Linda,

First thank you for your words and effort, for they give us insights.
Understand how this slowing and limitation of information to members of club can have bad effects like loss of trust.

But also please reconsider what you write:

" AIDA is not communicating with you because by being a 2*freediver you don't have to know about all the changing in the teaching standards or whatever else."

Consider what feelings and thoughts this answer may trigger to a paying AIDA member.

To me it testifies of elitism, treating interested caring members as a children who're not capable to come to responsible conclusions in matters apparently only the elevated instructors can understand.

On a side note can you please tell me how common this information containment / compartmentalisation view is amongst instructors?

I'm considering into becoming an official freedive instructor so I want to know.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[Haydn]

Courses need to suit the candidate. One day, two day and five day. Then every one can be taught. The sylabus needs to fit world wide. It is no good designing a course that cannot be delivered or can only be delivered in Dahab where its easy to add just one more dive.

People attend courses for a weekend, and do not ask their boss for Monday morning off. Likewise, a one week holiday cannot be extended by one day just because Aida says the next grade requires an extra dive.

Aida is like a squad of soldiers parading and every one is in line, except Johnny. And Johhnys mum wonders why everyone is out of step except her son. Aida needs to get back into step. You are there to serve us, not the other way around. People are more important than programs.

 

[rxcnc2]

I don't want to get into AIDA politics and as Bill wrote this should probably be discussed elsewhere, however I beg to differ from this opinion:

People attend courses for a weekend, and do not ask their boss for Monday morning off.

I don't see why some people think that a freediving course can only be taught on weekends for 8 or 12 hours straight. Like painting or language courses, it is perfectly ok to teach theory and pool practice after hours on weekdays. Some posts ago there was the example of Apnea Academy courses in Italy: they last typically 2-3 months, with a couple of sessions per week. Both teachers and attendants have their own day time jobs, so the lessons are held like at 8pm on Wednesday.

If you are on holiday in Koh Tao or Dahab and want to have 4 days straight, good. But for most other people living a regular life in a city, I think this approach is quite ok. The required OW dives of course have to be organized preferably in a weekend.

 

[kelp princess]

kars, aida is communicating with its instructors and instructor trainers mainly through monthly newsletters.
and the instructors that complained to aida about the extension of the course (sam and ben) got the explanation for that.

aida is not communicating with you because by being a 2*freediver you don't have to know about all the changing in the teaching standards or whatever else.
if you have a specific questions that you would like to address to aida, write a mail to the address you find on the aida website.

linda

well seeing how sam is still posting here on this thread it would seem they didn't supply her (or benny) with a satisfactory answer? and while you may not have intended on making your written response seem so curt and short - the sheer fact that you say AIDA doesn't need to do outreach and communicate with someone like Kars a 2* freediver is a complete travesty, mistake and missed opportunity.

IMHO freediving is about people getting in the water (SAFELY) and having a good time, learning, competing, - the sport is about the people - the governing body should be useful to the people - and responsive to the people - so that ultimately more people want to join :t

Sam,

Why not use the AIDA forum?

That is the place for AIDA people to post there questions and have answers.
And that is also the place to have internal discussion between instructors.

/B

Bill, people post here on DB because dialogue occurs - it would seem that in order for people to want to post on the AIDA website they would need to see several things that are currently missing:

-fair and attentive moderators or "agents" of AIDA responding in a timely manner
-a sense that AIDA does want to communicate with everyone, 2* or other
-a welcoming environment were the paid supporters and members could actually be ambassadors of the information themselves - in order to achieve any of this i believe a better sense of trust and a conduit of feedback must be established.


i've never done an aida course myself, so i'm of no use to anyone on consulting about how long or short an aida course should be - but i've taken many others freediving courses, and i found that after 2 days and even 4 days i wanted more time - but that's totally subjective because i was having so much fun rofl

it seems that reasonable questions deserve reasonable answers, with a justification of the why's. even if people don't end up agreeing with the answer at least they can understand the process of why it was decided that way. transparency is key.

cheers,

kp

 

[Stavros]

A heated discussion going on and I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in it.
(the ideas bellow are those of Stavros as an Instructor and are not the view of the AIDA EC)

During the 2 pages of this discussion I have read a lot about how the INSTRUCTORS will not be able to fit the course in THEIR schedules since they have full time jobs - how the INSTRUCTORS cannot fit their personal and family lifestyles with taking more than one weekend off THEIR time for a 2* course etc etc...

In these two pages I saw very little mentioned about what the benefits to the STUDENTS would be if we gave them an extra OW session...

I thought education was a two sided thing - yes we make money off it but we are also meant to offer people knowledge...true knowledge not "whatever we can fit into our busy schedule"

I thought the reason and part of our goal in teaching is to make people (especially at the 2* level which is a BEGINNER and not and INTRODUCTORY course) fall in love with freediving...

Well let me stop being sentimental about this and lets talk a bit about facts:

My normal 2* course last 7-8 days. They will include 3-4 theory sessions 2 pool sessions and 3-4 OW sessions. When a student finishes the course the norm is that they are a very respectable diver (good fining technique, aware of safety procedures, good understanding of breathing, equipment etc etc etc). My students also have 9-5 jobs so my teaching only takes place in the evenings. With the course being spread out over time the students actually gets a chance to understand and "digest" what I am talking about therefore seeing an immediate improvement during the actual course. I never have any complains about my courses running too long - everyone is actually happy if I can spread it to last even longer and get more OW sessions. I am currently a full time instructor but I followed exactly the same schedule when I had my normal 9-5 job.

The result of teaching courses this way is that in 2008 I had 4 people not making the 2* requirements out of 87 2* students I taught.

A similar number given to the EC by an instructor teaching the 2* in 2 days mentioned a failure rate of 25-40% for 2* students ...

The same instructor said that the majority of these 2* students never do another freediving course ever again.

Another strange number from my statistics is that from the 87 2* I certified in 2008 28 students came back the same year for a 3* and I currently have another 9 of them waiting for a 3* this year...

I am not providing you these numbers to receive applause ... the reasoning is different.

Maybe rather than thinking how freediving education can be changed to fit your busy schedule you could also think how THE EDUCATION COULD DEVELOP TO BENEFIT YOUR STUDENTS...

In the end of the day our students are our best advertisement.

I would like to close with one brief experiment I made a couple of weeks ago.

I was invited to teach a 2* and 3* courses back to back at a dive center in Crete were I am going to be taking over their Freediving education part in the following months. My students were two very experienced PADI & IANTD scuba instructors with 5 and 18 years of teaching experience respectively. The setup was as near as perfect as I could ask - teaching took place from morning till the evening, we had an olympic pool available every morning, classroom facilities nearby and the sea was 9m away from the classroom. Having such highly experienced students of course meant that the theory was no problem as many parts of the 2* (human physiology and physics) was nothing new to them. With this group of just 2 students it took us 3 days to complete the theory and pool requirements and 5 OW sessions were needed to reach the OW requirements to a satisfactory degree... after 6 days the 3* was of course postponed until my next visit to allow the students more time to practice

I don't know... I might be a very bad instructor but I found it impossible to teach even 2 very experienced diving professionals the 2* in 3 days, let alone 2,5 as described by the new outlines, and get satisfactory results... I am really amazed how some other instructors manage to teach complete newbies in 2 days...

Sorry for the long post... I am not teaching till later today and had some free time

Cheers Stavros

 

[jome]

Well, since everyone is chiming in let me do it too. And with the same disclaimer as the others. And let me explain that in the EC we have agreed that none of us communicate personally as "EC", but we communicate as one voice - just to avoid confusion. That is also the reason we rarely comment things directly in DB for example. Usually it is the education officer (Lotta) that answers but most of the time the answer has been prepared in co-operation with the whole group. But for this once I will come out of the closet.

We did actually vote about the AIDA2 issue in the EC, and then we voted again when this started to come up. And both times we got the same result, which was that the clear majority of members were in favor of making the AIDA2 course longer. My personal opinnon is that one weekend is really, really challenging for AIDA2. I've tried it, a couple of times, but with not encouraging results. Usually I spread out the course over several weeks, since me (and my students) all have jobs, but we can all spare one evening per week for example.

The EC has members from many different countries and backgrounds. There are guys like me, who have a very short open water season, and even that is murky and cold - as well as 9 to 5 jobs. There are resort based professional instructors that do this for a living and there are inbetween sort guys. I feel it's a pretty wide demographic and this is the result we got.

Now the thing where I feel we certainly could improve (all parts of AIDA) is communication. How many people knew that there was a vote? Why not? This kind of thing should be visible. Maybe some kind of blog or something, I don't know. But something where it would be visible that this thing was brought up, handled and what the result was.

Also in this thread, and others before, there is a strange sentiment like AIDA was some kind of power hungry, money grabbing, living entity, with a personality and a (mean spirited) will of it's own. It is not. It's simply a sum of the people in it. In effect, a big mailing list or a bunch of lists of freedive enthusiasts that want to somehow organize and develop things.

 

[trullalla]

well seeing how sam is still posting here on this thread it would seem they didn't supply her (or benny) with a satisfactory answer? and while you may not have intended on making your written response seem so curt and short - the sheer fact that you say AIDA doesn't need to do outreach and communicate with someone like Kars a 2* freediver is a complete travesty, mistake and missed opportunity.
kp

kars and kp ,

i keep reading my reply and i keep not seeing anything rude about it.
i find quite strange that u expect that any organization would go writing and justifying their internal affairs in a public forum.

as for sam and ben, they did get an answer but they didn't like it, this is why they keep posting in this thread.

the fact that i'm short in my answers is because many people tend to skip reading long posts, and since i'd like to have my points understood by as many readers as possible i keep it clear and short.

linda

 

[trullalla]

for those who like to read long answers, here's something for you ;-)

i'm sure may of you remember the sad time when lots of suunto D4 and mosquitos where faulty, and a lot of people were complaining (see threads on this forum). i personally had 4 mosquitoes, 3 of which died within 6 months, and the last lasted for just over 3 years.
now, we were all angry with suunto because instead of aknowledging the problem and do something about it, they were simply ignoring it and keep selling all the watches they had out on the market. that wasn't very professional, was it? (especially when their motto is "replacing luck"

however, aida was in a similar situation. there was a product that was faulty. chances that the student didn't make the requirements were too high (between 20 and 40%), and we didn't want to sell a faulty product anymore.
so, how do you solve it?
1. you lower the requirements (presently 16 cwt, 2' sta, 40 dyn)
2. you add time to the course

we went for option 2, since option 1 is already covered by AIDA* course (short course, no requirments).

i think sam is the only instructor that stated that her students don't have any problems fullfilling the requirements during the 2 days course held in the cold and dark waters of her quarry. how that is possible is completely puzzling me and many other insructors.
my stastics are completely different: in our little company in dahab we are 3 instructors working full time, and if we put all our numbers together, 25% of our 2* students don't make it in 2 days. most of those who keep diving after the course make it the 3rd day. and our diving conditions are perfect: good vis, warm water and very long dive sessions.

who wants to do a 2 days course with shallower/ shorter requirements, can teach introductory course, called AIDA*, which you can even do in 1 day if you like, and most important gives you the chance to choose how many dive and pool sessions you want. other instructors are teaching it successfully.

linda

 

[Haydn]

Good points Linda but I still cant think of any reasons why the sylabus cant be changed to fit 1,2 & 5 days.

The point of a course is that every candidate has the chance to pass the grade within the time allowed. Be it a 5 year university course or a 2 day parachuting course. The idea is to get the student to the standard within the time frame. First, come up with the time frame, second come up with the sylabus to fit. Third, what cant be done gets pushed into the higher level course. The half day extra in the 2* becomes the first half day in the 3* instead. Or simply work smarter and reduce some of the other requirements.

The sceptic will say that if you can make the course more difficult and cause it to take longer than 2 days (say 3 or 4) then the candidate will take a week off work to accomplish it, and call it a holiday. They will go to Dahab and not stay in England (I dont think there are any courses in England that run on a full time basis). Therefore its good for business to make your view accepted. Bad for business if in England we lose all our trainees to sunny climes.

Another problem in England is that to do an evening course, you have to live pretty well in London otherwise you spend more time in the car than in the pool and you cant consolidate your learning quickjly enough if spread out too far. In such a case, you will be part of a club that rents a pool once a week. Or you can travel to the SETT tank for a weekend (but not the extra day). You might as well fly to Dahab/Nice/La Paz and learn properly.