AIDA Results Register

[osusim]

Thanks for the clarifications but when i did my judge course I was clearly told to use the official Excel document and the IOP says that they should be sent to ranking@aida-international.org.

The problem is - nobody have seen them since 2008 and AIDA ranking done alternatively.

Anyway the issue of excluded athletes has nothing to do with organisers not sending the results.

Don't think so. For many years in fact we have follow data chain Source -> Alternative DB -> Official AIDA ranking. If you cannot see the result in apnea.cz then it was not sent to Ivo (unless he created superbug ).

 

[Kattie]

Don't think so. For many years in fact we have follow data chain Source -> Alternative DB -> Official AIDA ranking. If you cannot see the result in apnea.cz then it was not sent to Ivo (unless he created superbug ).

How do you explain that 3 different organisers/judge send the results of a comp and all performances end up on Ivo's ranking but some athletes do not appear on the AIDA International ranking at all? I am one of them and i've tried to get different people to help without success for nearly a year!

Liv Phillip was awarded the title of ultimate freediver of the year by apnea.cz i guess it means she did a few comp and got brilliant results. Look for her on the AIDA ranking... she is not there! Not last year and not this year either. She got a new national record recently and the organiser is sure that she was on the list he sent. Her performances from that comp are there on apnea.cz but on the AIDA website 2 athletes from that comp dont have any of their performances listed but all the others do.

I argue that this needs adressing and that organisers may do a lot of mistakes but they cannot be blamed for that one!

 

[osusim]

How do you explain that 3 different organisers/judge send the results of a comp and all performances end up on Ivo's ranking but some athletes do not appear on the AIDA International ranking at all? I am one of them and i've tried to get different people to help without success for nearly a year!

Then my theory about superbug who eats results of nice looking girls overnight makes seance.
Send full data to Ivo for tracing of the problem in his data export tool.

 

[trux]

Kattie, I wrote about the problems with the current system of results delivery, not to tell it is the fault of the organizers that the results of Liv are missing in the official ranking, but to explain that you quietly can go ahead using the new Excel table for the data submission. And that's for the following reasons:

1) The rules define what data must be send, and where:

2.3.7

​

​

The results for all AIDA competitions must be sent after the last day of competition (maximum 2 weeks) to the AIDA International Sport Officer (calendar@aida-international.org) in order to have them appear on the AIDA International Ranking List.

The result list to the AIDA Sport Officer must contain the following:
• name of competition (as listed on calendar)​

• name of the judges

• results per discipline, per start, and sex separated per athlete the following data is needed: full name, nationality, sex, discipline (i.c.o. DYN/DNF competition specify DYN or DNF per athlete), AP, RP, penalties, total​

2) The rules do not specify any official Excel sheet. The "official" sheet was put together by Jome and Bill years ago, with the purpose to facilitate the data assembly. It is not more official than the current Excel sheet I suggest to use

3) 90% of organizers never used the old "official" sheet anyway. The data come in in multitude of file formats, and multitude of Excel sheets formats. And even those who use the "official" sheet, fill it often wrong, and with improperly formatted data, because the sheet does not do any data validation.​

4) The new Excel file is not only perfectly conform to the rules, but additionally it saves a lot of work to the organizers - it is designed so that it minimizes the work needed for entering the data; it prevents entering false data; it fills plenty of data automatically (i.e. points); it lets you choose only from valid values (i.e. countries, outcomes, etc).​

5) I am no more able to process all those files in different formats coming from organizers manually, and I will slowly have to start refusing any other data than those submitted through the new Excel file.​

6) I do not have the official statement yet, but several AIDA Int officials seem to like the idea of the automated data collection with this new Excel file, and will likely support it. Anyway, there are only two possibilities - either AIDA develops own system and starts collecting the data results alone, or will enforce the using of this new Excel file. If not, there will be no ranking again. And that would happen very soon, if the results do not start coming in this way now.​

Now, regarding the missing results - I can assure you that there is no intention to suppress any results on any side. It must be a technical issue. It could be even on my side, but I just verified, and the data I am feeding to AIDA's server include 57 performances of Liv, so unless I have overseen some data incompatibility, there is probably some problem on the side of AIDA Ranking. I recommend that you report it to AIDA IT Officer, or to Jome (Simo Kurra) with as much details as possible (i.e. which results are missing exactly, for which competitors, years, etc.), and I am sure he'll be able to fix it. The data is there, just for some reason not accessible.​

 

[Stephan Whelan]

So here's a question (i'm sitting in a hotel away from family on a public holiday so too much time on my hands!)

Why do so few organisers send in results. Competition has been one of the core principles of AIDA from the beginning but so few organisers seem to log their results officially.

Thoughts?

 

[trux]

I believe that the main reason is that organizing a competition is quite stressful and time demanding, and once the competition is over, the organizers consider it over, move to other things, and do not want to spend any more time with it. That's why I believe only system that is used (and helpful) already during and before the competition, and that does not require any additional work afterwards, can work.

This latest Excel sheet is exactly the step in this direction, so I hope it will be accepted, though until now, nobody used it although there were around 20 competitions since the time I published it. Only Will Trubridge tried, but he learned about it from Kimmo only the eve of the competition, and there were some compatibility issues with his Mac Excel version. The compatibility is in the meantime improved, so I hope the results start coming in automatically soon. Otherwise I am afraid, there will be no ranking very soon again, since I really start having troubles spending so much time with it, and won't be able doing it much longer.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Trux,

So if it is compulsary why wouldn't an organiser deliver the results. I suppose some could argue that a competition is just about the event itself but promotion of the results would benefit AIDA, organiser and competitors...

It could be a technology problem but it could also be solved via stronger enforcement of submission of results...

 

[trux]

It is not really compulsory - the organizer has to send the results to AIDA only if he wants to have the results in the ranking. Organizers do not care about it too much. Their main concern is organizing the event, and get enough of competitors. Telling them the competition has a "ranking status" is sufficient to attract competitors (and many do not even bother about that either). Once the competition is over, the organizer has no motivation anymore to do it.

AIDA can barely enforce it. Competitors could - finally they all paid the "ranking tax" (2€ per performance), so if they see ranking was not sent, they could ask for a refund - I believe that's the only way the organizers could get some stimulus.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

I hear your point but AIDA could enforce it if it chose without a huge amount of effort. For example it could state that no International or National records are valid until the official results are submitted - that is only one of numerous ways it could help enforce it should it choose to.

Technology shouldn't be a disabler - it should be an enabler...

It may seem like a minor point but for an organisation that has a major part based around competition, getting official results and ranking should factor highly in the ethos and process. Everyone should follow that process whether it is a manual or automated solution.

 

[trux]

Well, national records are not handled by AIDA International, but by national federations. World records at competitions are relatively rare, and mostly at competition which do no pose much problems anyway. I agree AIDA Int should try enforcing it better, but they have very little enforcement possibilities.

The technology is not a disabler, and it never was - I am accepting results in any formats (and you can't imagine the multitude of them I am receiving). And you are right that the technology should be an enabler - it should make it as easy as possible, so that the results sending does not cost any time and effort. And that's exactly where the project with the automated Excel sheet aims.

 

[chrismar]

There is also the issue that there was a degree of confusion for a while around who or where to send the official results to.

I for one am very pleased with the work that Ivo has done on standardising the competition results sheets and will be using them for our next competition in June. I've had a quick play with the sheets and they are well thought out.

 

[trux]

There is also the issue that there was a degree of confusion for a while around who or where to send the official results to.

Yes, I undestand, but actually there should be no confusion - the rules define it quite clearly:

2.3.7

The results for all AIDA competitions must be sent after the last day of competition (maximum 2 weeks) to the AIDA International Sport Officer (calendar@aida-international.org) in order to have them appear on the AIDA International Ranking List.​

But if they send it to any other AIDA address, privately to the Sport Officer, or directly to me, it will work too. So even if people do not understand how it works with the ranking, and who is responsible for it, it cannot be a reason for not sending it anywhere at all. And even worse - it cannot be a reason for not sending the resuls even when directly asked for doing so, which is unfortunately not uncommon. I always write to organizers when results are missing for a longer time, but some of them simply do not answer. Others answer with promises to send it, but won't do it.

 

[Ale Andres]

Isn´t this a judge´s job? i always supposed (and did) that this is a judge´s matter, not the organizer´s, that of course is handling a lot of stuff...

 

[Jouskari]

I believe that the main reason is that organizing a competition is quite stressful and time demanding, and once the competition is over, the organizers consider it over, move to other things, and do not want to spend any more time with it. That's why I believe only system that is used (and helpful) already during and before the competition, and that does not require any additional work afterwards, can work.

This latest Excel sheet is exactly the step in this direction, so I hope it will be accepted, though until now, nobody used it although there were around 20 competitions since the time I published it. Only Will Trubridge tried, but he learned about it from Kimmo only the eve of the competition, and there were some compatibility issues with his Mac Excel version. The compatibility is in the meantime improved, so I hope the results start coming in automatically soon. Otherwise I am afraid, there will be no ranking very soon again, since I really start having troubles spending so much time with it, and won't be able doing it much longer.

Hi Trux! I really do support you in this matter. It´s almost completely insane that every comp organizer makes their own comp. excel instead of using one that would work in a confrom way and even directly upload all the results to the server.

Do you have a general email for feedback etc.? namely at the moment the 2007 version copies the DYN ap:s to the DNF start list. If I could get that fixed soon I could upload the Finnish Open 2011 results using this excel.

Br,
Jone

 

[Jouskari]

It actually read in the excel. Oops.

Feedback to: ranking(a)apnea.cz

 

[trux]

AIDA International has now finally own result collection interface. It is now fully and exclusively in the responsibility of each organizer (or the judge) to submit the results to AIDA. Nobody else will have to do it for them manually anymore. This should greatly facilitate the processing of the results, because unlike before, no manul postprocessing on the side of AIDA International (nor at any 3rd party like Apnea.cz) is anymore needed. If you did not hear about the system, Simo created a very nice tutrial video, so be sure to check it out:

http://www.aidainternational.org/videos/aida_ranking.mov

Well, despite that the system is available since October, only very small number of organizers used it to send the results. The vaste majority of organizers of all recent competition did not bother about submitting results to the ranking. I have to warn all of them, as well as all participating competitors, that their performances will not be in the official ranking unless submitted through the official system. I will continue adding non-ranking competitions, unofficial competitions, and non-AIDA competitions to, but none of those result will appear in the official ranking AIDA ranking anymore!

So if you do not see some of your previous performances in the official ranking, I advise you that you contact the organizer and ask the for fixing it.

Non-ranking and unofficial results can be still submitted using the Apnea.cz worksheet. I currently released an improved version v1.18, but if you organise an AIDA event, you may prefer using the official system to avoid double-work. Results submitted to AIDA Int. will be quickly imported to the Apnea.cz ranking too.

I added also some addtional statistics on the competition pages - at the bottom of each competition page you can now see the average performances, the numbers of participating competitors, nationalities, total number of performances, penalties, disqualifications, blackouts, and some other details. These data can be the seen also on the Competition List, where you then can compare competitions from different points of view. So for example you can see which competition had the biggest number of participitaning freedivers, the biggest number of blackouts, etc. Just click the header of the respective column to sort the table by one of the parameters.

In the last weeks I had troubles adding new competitions for diverse reasons (from technical, over the changes at AIDA International and the underlying interface to Apnea.cz, to the lack of time, and some personal issues). In the last days I finally managed to add a bigger number of all the past competitions I managed to find. Unfortunately it is still very difficult to find the results - a big majority of competition organizers for some reason do not bother about publishing their results, and even less about sending the results to AIDA or to Apnea.cz, and even less sending them in a standardized form.

So despite adding 23 new competitions in the last days, there are results of another 37 competitions still missing only in 2011 (68 known missing competitions in total). If you happen to know any judges or organizers of those competitions, please ask them to hurry up sending the results for the ranking.

There is the list of recently added competitions here:

Coupe de Noël du Haut-Rhin 2011
Rhein-Main Cup 2011
37 Campeonato Nacional 2011
Trofeo Team Security Apnea 2011
Championnat de Normandie 2011
2° Trofeo H2BO `Bolognapnea`
7th Submania Apnea Cup 2011
IV Cup AIDA Ukraine (FINAL)
2° Trofeo Asti Blu
Campionato Italiano Invernale Elite e Indoor per Societa` di Apnea Dinamica
Championnat de Guadeloupe
Coupe de France 2012 - 1ère manche
Open Freedive Liège 2011
CAFA November Pool Competition 2011
Niederösterreichische Meisterschaften 2011
Toronto Static 2011 Mini Comp
Vertical Blue 2008
FDD November Minicomp 2011
Slovenian National Championship 2011
11th anniversairy of AIDA Belgium
Danish Freediving Championship 2011
Freedive Paradise II 2011

 

[wjohnson100]

Hey buddy, is possible some folks are not aware that the ranking pages are fixed. I can understand people's reluctance to put in the effort. Personally I would recommend that it be the judges responsibility to do it, as they can be held accountable for not doing it. This system has been broke for several years, so it might take awhile to get everyone on board. I know when I compete, I will keep the pressure on the organizers to get the results posted.

Is there a link to this video and also to whatever written instructions there are so that I can post it on my website?

I recommend that whoever made the audio instructions also generate a video.

I also recommend you add a link to a dummy version of this process that people can go into to explore this process without worrying about any results actually getting posted.

Just suggestions.

Regards,

Walt

 

[wjohnson100]

I posted the instructions link in my website too - Articles

Hope this is better publicized to the organizers.

 

[trux]

Hey buddy, is possible some folks are not aware that the ranking pages are fixed. I can understand people's reluctance to put in the effort. Personally I would recommend that it be the judges responsibility to do it, as they can be held accountable for not doing it. This system has been broke for several years, so it might take awhile to get everyone on board.

Walt, frankly told the ranking is working at least since the end of 2009. The only difference is that it now does not require any manual work on my side to get results to the official ranking. On one hand it is now a more direct way allowing getting the results online quicker, on the other hand it is now fully in the responsability of the organizer or the judge to do their work properly. Unfortunately, I am afraid it will pose problems to many of them, because in the past majority of competition organizers never bothered sending any results at all, even after several reminders. So when they did not find time sending a file by email, I am afraid it may be the same or a bigger hurdle for them to use the online system. So yes, making the judges responsible and accountable might help, but you should better address your demand to AIDA (I am merely a 3rd party who delivered them the results in the past, and have no influence on their rules or procedures).

Is there a link to this video and also to whatever written instructions there are so that I can post it on my website?

Yes. sure, it is the first link in my previous post.

I recommend that whoever made the audio instructions also generate a video.

It is a video, not an audio.

I also recommend you add a link to a dummy version of this process that people can go into to explore this process without worrying about any results actually getting posted.

You can test the system - the video should help you understanding how. In case of any questions, please contact the author, Simo Kurra.

 

[wjohnson100]

And believe me we all appreciate your hard work! Without you and a few others, there would be no ranking system.