AIDA Results Register

[trux]

Well, basic system is already available, but it turned out unattractive, and not used by anyone. What's needed is an application that is not an additional hassle for the organizers, but that helps them doing competitions better, easier, and saving them time, so that they reach for it happily.

I agree you need to start building the system from bottom-up, starting small, but see no reason why some of the needed and useful features should not be taken in the planning from the very beginning. It does not mean they have to be worked on with priority, or available immediately, but people working on the system should be aware of them, and open sufficient interfaces for interaction with such extensions.

 

[jome]

Hehe, we're already starting to disagree

Well, my whole concept was to build a ranking system that was only about the results. The idea was simply to collect and replace the excel-based results in a database format for obvious reasons.

I steered clear from doing another freedive central for the simple reason that, well, it was already there and pretty good. The obvious fallback was that it didn't have the result histories from time before it was concieved and also not all AIDA competitions went through that. And that I think is the biggest achievement so far - we have the AIDA results up to 2008 in a database format - what you can do it with is more or less up to your imagination.

I think this should be at least the initial focus of the project. A database of results that is intuitive to use, fun to dig for trivia etc and on the admin side, an interface that allows for organizers to input results in a simple way.

This would be perhaps the 1.0. Then as it gains acceptance, we could do a 2.0 that has some more fun stuff.

I don't think the problem is currently that people would not like to use it as much as me not letting them. Ie. the admin interface is not "open" to the organizers for the simple reason that it's not ready for that.

 

[cal]

I steered clear from doing another freedive central for the simple reason that, well, it was already there and pretty good.

That's what I think, too. Why invent the wheel twice? I was anyhow wondering why freeivecentral doesn't cooperate/intergrate/whateverate with AIDA.

cal

 

[trux]

I steered clear from doing another freedive central for the simple reason that, well, it was already there and pretty good.

Who tells doing another Freedive Central? Why not simply merging your energy (and data) together with Francisco and his FDC, and inviting other programmers from the freediving community to participate? Why playing each in his corner, creating incompatible, and to some extent redundant systems, and not sharing the source code, when none of the systems were built for profit?

The problem with a simple system that makes nothing else than result data collection, is that it adds more work to the organizers, instead of making it easier for them. They already need an IT system for the registration, for the planning, for the live competition, and if they then have to use another system for submitting the results, or have to deliver the data in specific format, it not only makes it longer, and adds work and hassle to everyone involved, but it also leads to delays, misspellings, wrong assignments, and many other errors. Besides it, many organizers will simply ignore it, and continue delivering the data in unusable form (if at all).

On my mind, the only solution, is a complete application that offers all what the organizer needs: from the planning, over registrations, running the competition live, up to delivering the results to AIDA. Only when such application is available, it may be widely accepted, and we can finally see ranking, and results updated in real-time, instead of waiting months for them (and getting barely a half of them anyway).

 

[Chrillepille]

I want to give a big shout out to you guys for doing this! I can't even imagine the work you already have put in to make it work sofar (updating the ranking with all results must be a nightmare). Well done!

Then I'm just wondering, has the executive board acknowledged this problem? Since they are now getting money from every athlete they should also put the money to use and the money should give something back to the athletes. Maybe your discussion is the beginning of this? I have full understanding that this takes time and you can only get so much for €2.

 

[rxcnc2]

Great ideas folks, and I am glad there are so many volunteers. However, the excel files were just fine for me.

 

[chrismar]

My preference would be Java of course; I'm a J2EE developer when I'm not in the water.

Jome: Any chance you could send me a database dump? Insert statements & DDL would be preferable, but CSV would be okay too. I'd like to have a quick nudge at setting something up. chris at lazyseal dot co dot nz

 

[trux]

Jome: Any chance you could send me a database dump? Insert statements & DDL would be preferable, but CSV would be okay too. I'd like to have a quick nudge at setting something up.

Hm, this is exactly what I was afraid of, and why I suggested creating an open public project, where people could voice their opinions. Not only programmers, but also others involved - AIDA officials, judges, organizers, competitors, and other freedivers.

I am afraid that instead of it we'll see a surge of premature individual uncoordinated initiatives, resulting in perhaps some improvements, but not good enough to be really sufficiently attractive for the organizers, and bringing so some real progress. A single person will likely not find time enough to design, develop, and maintain such application. Individual may successfully start with a simple interface, but as I already wrote, I do not think it will change a lot in the way data get in, unless we have a complete system helping organizers to manage competitions instead off adding more to their burden. And such system needs good planning, careful modular structure design allowing excellent extensibility and scalability, and development by the community of volunteers.

I rather suggest starting with collecting ideas, contacting international and local AIDA officials, discussing with competition organizers, and inviting developers of existing freediving IT solutions to join (FreediveCentral, ApneaMania). Perhaps even FFESSM and CMAS might be interested in joining, and they might be even willing to pump some funds into it.

 

[jome]

Trux, I'm just not convinced that that is what the organizers want (partly based on experience).

An alternative "vision" is that they like doing things their own way, they just need a place to dump the results after it's all done and AIDA just needs a place to show all the results.

In anycase, I think that should be the core of the system. Which doesn't mean that there can't be incremental feature updates, but that could be up and running quite fast. Unless the project produces concrete results in a reasonable times, people will get tired and sign off...

If we try to come up with a system that is flexible enough for ever type of competition run, it will be inherently complex to use, and thus not attractive. It's actually a really complex problem. People organize competitions that span from one day to several weeks. Sometimes it's one discipline per day, sometimes its "pick what ever you want". There might be deviations in schedules due to bad weather for example. The system would need to be "pretty damn good" before people ditch pen and paper in adapting to these situations. Not to mention that laptops are not really feasible on open water situations etc. I'm just afraid that such project would be way too ambitious to ever see the light of day, unless there is a really motivated and competent lead developer with a strong vision and will to make it happen. I know I'm not him.

I'd say there is a fundamental difference of opinion in this.

P.S The current interface to organizers is actually really simple: send your results in which ever format you wish to ranking@aida-international.org - from my point of view, I'd just like to introduce a little bit of complexity to this interface to save time from the person doing the actual updates. And at least comparing to the calendar (official AIDA comps), the amount of reported competitions is actually pretty good - if a bit laggy currently.

 

[cal]

Hi all

I'm backing jomes Version. A system able to handle all possible variations of a competition would likely reach the complexity of using a small office suite. Why not just start with a simple interface to enter the results and submit them.

As I thin kit would be a good idea to make sure the names are spelled correctly (I know the problem of having a name that everybody misspells....), AIDA could release a competitors database which could be used in an offline- as well as in an online client for the system. Of course there still should be the possibility to register new-, not-yet or not-at-all-ADIA menbers (see, the complextity is comming).

As for to gather an impression about the complexity: Ist there a sample dump available of the AIDA competitors and results DB? What about your system/Dumps, jome?

have a lot of fun

Michi

 

[trux]

I do not quite understand why are you so afraid of the complexity. Complex system does not mean it is complicate to use. Quite oppositely - the complexity can allow for very simple and intuitive user interface. Anyway, I do not suggest building a complex system from the scratch, I am only asking to take the possible future extensions in view in the planning. If the system remains open, modular, and extensible, it is up to the participants how far they take it.

There is already Freedive Central that was successfully used for about 50 competitions, and it offers the essential elements - registrations, results, ranking, misspelling avoidance,... Already linking it together with the AIDA results register database would be a great step forward. And on my mind it is doable with a very minimal effort. So why not contacting Francisco Gautier and ask him for cooperation? He built the system a few years ago, and although I never spoke to him personally, I have the feeling he got also little bit frustrated and demotivated in further development by the lack of interest from the side of AIDA officials. On my mind his system deserved to be promoted by AIDA better and used by competition organizers more consequently.

 

[jome]

For the record, I love FC. I registered right away when it was ramped up and we run all our competitions in there for a while. I even blogged for it for a while, but then it kind of fizzeld. I think it is a great shame that it wasn't/isn't more widely adopted.

I don't see the current "AIDA ranking" as a competing project, I think it's simply a different problem I was trying to solve.

But now that you mention it, yes, FC could already be used for submitting results to AIDA ranking if we'd build a little "bridge" from it, that wouldn't be too complex either, I'm sure.

 

[trux]

OK, Jome, so why not starting in this way: you could open your user interface source code, so that people can help improving it; and use FC as the admin back-end for organizers. We'd just need linking together the databases. Perhaps Francisco could even host the AIDA register database on his server, which would greatly simplify it all. If he is then willing to open the source code, we, other programmers from the community, can help him improving and extending it, or localizing it into other languages.

 

[chrismar]

From a purely personal perspective, I'd like to have a go at setting something up using technologies I'm keen to investigate for my day job. That means my time and effort doesn't extend to whatever system people want to implement. I'm happy to have a go, then release the things I've learnt and any code to whomever is interested (or maintain if that's what people want), but I've been involved in too many open projects of infinite scope to make me want to fight that battle again.

 

[ericvrp]

I count about 5 people willing to improve the current situation. All of these seems to be willing to put energy, thoughts, coding time and system administration time into this, at least short term.

Before this thread becomes to chaotic with lots of energy going in all directions I would like to suggest we take a step forward towards an open source project. We can then put our thoughts into collaborate google documents, a wiki, or into some version controlled plain text.

We could ask Jome to add the current database-dump and code there too. Not as a basis to continue work on, but as a reference to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

Hosting either on Google Code, SourceForge.net: Open Source Software or something someone else suggests.

Let's hear it!

 

[trux]

I am all for it, and if there is nobody having already experience with setting up a project at Source Forge (or elsewhere), I am willing to look at it. However, I'd like to first have the opinions of the most concerned people: Jome (it looks like he principally likes the idea), some AIDA officials (Bill?), and also Francisco Gautier (Freedive Central).

I already sent an email message through the DB system to Francisco two days ago, inviting him to express his opinion, but am not sure if he really got it. So far no answer. I think I have somewhere his real email address, so will try to dig it out and contact him.

I have nothing against starting with a very basic and simple kernel, as long as proper interfaces, modularity, and extensibility are assured.

As I wrote in my previous posts, I think the best solution would be starting with merging the efforts of Jome and Francisco, putting the systems on the same server. Merging the databases, using Jome's work as basis for the user interface, and FDC as the back-end for organizers and competitors.

So it would be important to know if Francisco is interested at all, and if AIDA does not have any objections either. Then it would be interesting to know if AIDA has some funds for covering some basic expenses - hosting, and possibly some licenses, development tools (but that can be probably avoided), and perhaps some other minor expenses.

On my mind it would be also good to try speaking to FFESSM, CMAS, and other freediving related associations, and ask them whether they are not interested in joining the project. But seeing the previous reactions, I am almost sure I am alone with this opinion here, because it would add on complexity. The system would have to more universal, and more flexible. On the other hand, there might be possibly funds available for some professional development.

 

[jome]

Just as a thought, that maybe we could make it a little more general. Meaning, that it would be a general results system with a freediving bias as that obviously drives the developmet, but keep it modular enough that it could be easily configured for relatively similar activities. As a concrete example, I'm sure our national federation would be very interested to set up a similar thing for finswimming results and the sport's are close enough that it wouldn't even be that complicated (a finswim is a really quick dynamic, basically )

I think as a first step I might draft a database diagram of the current tables. The we could analyze the weakness and set up the foundation for a new database structure (doesn't have to be SQL but that's what I'm most comfortable with) that would suit expansion in the future too?

 

[trux]

Not having any personal experience in administering any Source Forge or Google Code project, I did some research and it is quite clear that starting with Google Code Project Hosting is much easier, quicker, and simpler, while offering same or even better features. Well, it is true it is hosted by the "evil" Google currently practically owning the web, and people who are orthodox Open Source developers would probably prefer Source Forge, but I decided to have a look at Google's system anyway.

While testing how it works, I already created a project that we can use for this purpose. You can find it here: aida - Google Code
Currently it is practically just an empty skeleton, but hopefully we'll make some consent among us soon to put up some concept, plans, diagrams, and code to start with.

If you want to join the project, and the associated Google discussion group that I also created, just send me your Google account email address by PM, and I'll add you both to the Code project and to the Google discussion group AIDA Developers | Google Groups

I am trying to contact Francisco Gauthier to see whether he is interested in joining the effort, and whether he would be willing to host the database.

Jome could perhaps speak to other AIDA officials, and get their opinions. Especially that about the merging of the system with FreediveCentral, and hosting on their server may be quite critical, and could be objected.

Jome, if you want, you could also upload your current PHP code.

Also, all of you who are interested in helping, please let me know if you prefer discussiong the start-up planning here, or if we move it directly to the project discussion group. Another option would be using AIDA's forum.

 

[francisco]

Hello,


I was told by Trux that there was a thread were freedive central was mentionned.

I read the first and the last page of this thread.


Freedive central was created by Paulo Nobrega and myself some years ago ( can't even remember when exactly ) We decided to put together his experience in web creation and my experience of AIDA competitor, judge, Instructor and organiser to create a website that would help promoting AIDA freediving events and freedivers.

Here is the mail we sent to the AIDA board :



Dear Board,


The summer is over now and a new season begins for AIDA worldwide. A year which, we all hope, will be yet more fruitful. More freedivers, more courses, more competitionsand more competitors. AIDA prospering, in short.
AIDA grows thanks to the will and the initiative of a handful of people throughout the world. People who, with all their differences, share a desire to see our sport recognised worldwide.

This is also the scope of Freedive Central. We have created an interactive web space, a place of sharing and reference for freedivers across the globe. A sophisticated database made to measure for athletes and competition organisers alike.

We would like to offer AIDA international the Freedive Central software that manages our database.

This programme functions automatically and could very easily be incorporated into the AIDA International homepage in an aesthetically pleasing manner. We will offer professional IT assistance for this task.

We would like to also include a programme that our programming team is currently developing. It is an “organiser” interface which can be downloaded to any computer which is then used as a remote terminal while the internet is off-line.

The mutual advantages to AIDA incorporating this software:

- Freedive Central will have more users
- Freedive Central will indirectly gather more material for the site
- Freedive Central will have more visitors to it’s webpage


- AIDA will benefit from having a sophisticated and heavily used database at its use
- AIDA will benefit from a highly improved quality and presentation with respect to the current AIDA ranking system
- AIDA will be able to offer more information on athletes and competitions
- AIDA competition organisers will have at their disposal a powerful tool in terms of athlete inscription, points and rankings
- AIDA can expect this software to be improved within a reasonable degree, based on its requirements.

Our team will be pleased to answer any questions on the above topics or provide more information on anything else you may wish to know. We invite you to visit the following links on our website:

Ranking:

Ranking List :: Freedive Central

Freedivers:

http://www.freedivecnetral.com/atletas_pais.php
and
All Freedivers - Alphabetic List :: Freedive Central

We believe that it would be beneficial to run a dummy competition on our site, so that AIDA competition organisers could find out about the tools and advantages the programme offers.

While we await in hope of a positive reply we remain, sirs, respectfully yours,


The whole Freedive Central team
Freedive Central - all about Freediving, Freedivers and Underwater Competitions


This was a loooooooong time ago.


We focused on AIDA.
We refused dozens of instructors from other organisations to promote their courses on FC
We refused loaaaaads of organisers from other organisations.
We strongly believed AIDA would recognize the utility of this website.
We made a hudge mistake.

Trux says we got disapointed by AIDA. We are indeed, and lost some motivation in keeping the site alive.

Was Fc in conflict with another site of the kind created by some influent AIDA member ? I don't know. I can only say that for the last few years AIDA could have had FOR FREE a proper way of presenting its results instead of using an excell sheet!


Mes couilles !!!!!



Safe dives to you all



F

 

[trux]

Thanks, Francisco, for the details. Frankly told I suspected it was exactly this case. In fact, in the past, wanting to improve the status quo, I offered my help to AIDA officials too, but never heard back. And there was surprisingly little interest for this last initiative too.

Well, perhaps Jome has better relation with the AIDA officials, and can bring some enlightenment on their stand. We could have a pretty good system very quick, if AIDA agreed using the FC system - we would just need to merge the FC database with the one of Jome. Whatever the opinion of the AIDA board is, I'd like that they tell it openly, so that we can either help launching the system, or stop bothering about it.