AIDA Team World Championship 2012

[chrismar]

I've seen the video and it is clearly an incorrect decision. There is no PBMM evident and the judge should not touch the athlete regardless. If anything, he should have asked a safety diver to grab him. However the only reason to do that is inability to maintain airway or the danger of the athlete injuring themself - clearly not the case here. If he believed there was a PBMM, there should have been no touching the athlete, but he could have issued a red card. This could then be protested.

I think that because the athlete was supported, the jury believed that the athlete could have been advantaged by this. While true, an athlete should not be punished for organisational errors. Unfortunately the jury will not discuss what went into their decision or how they voted.

What I find particularly concerning is that the judge, who I have seen make other terrible decisions (overturned previously) is an A-level judge and judge trainer. Unfortunately, many of the A-level judges were gifted their qualification when the qualification system started by the then president. Not all of them should be that level, yet it is extremely difficult for other judges to attain this qualification. I only know of two that have moved up the ranks themselves, and then at great personal expense.

 

[lojo]

Starting from the point that using chairs to help athletes to stand, was a pretty bad idea.(not everyone is over180cm). I can't believe that the judge didn't see a clear risk for the athlete. The judge did ask the safety to hold the diver.

The video is hard to comment since from the back, we only see half of what was really happening.

Canceling a performance due to a discussion with the judges... It is childish. I have seen juveniles in regional competitions showing more professionalism.

If you see a judge favoring another competitor, you have the right to complain about that.

 

[pehtran]

Already a PBMM is a joke but this rulling is even bigger joke. What was this judges thinking? But even after this mistake they had time and chance to change the decision. Why didn't they? This kind of rulling makes AIDA competitions a farse. Everything was already said about this after the WC in Aarhus... many good sugestions were writen in those posts. I feel sorry for the athlete. Pitty that people in AIDA who have the power, do not have the courage to change what needs to be changed and what only they can change.
Miha

 

[trux]

Well, it indeed does not look like PBMM, though it would be better to have the access to the same video the jury had, to be able seeing what they based their decision on. If you believe the ruling was wrong, I suggest bringing it via your national AIDA to the disciplinary commission. If a judge (and jury) really did a mistake, and influenced the champiohship, they should bear consequences. If it was proven wrong, I imagine that a degradation of the involved judge(s) level(s) or a ban for international competitions would be appropriate. That would at least happen in other sports.

 

[Mullins]

According to the rules, if you nod twice, you can be DQd for PBMM. There is no clear definition of the 'B' part of PBMM (aside from a figurative comparison with a light switch!?) so it's left pretty much up to judges' discretion when to invoke that law any time somebody has a samba - because most sambas involve more than one nod. The judge's decision here is clearly out of line with AIDA practice; but he's also not incorrect according to the letter of the law. The law is an ass for allowing this situation to occur. Should've been a white card by any reasonable measure

 

[Giobbi]

Mikko. Why do you think the judges in the jury ruled like they did? I guess it was 5 judges voting. What do you think happen? What is wrong with the system? How can it be fixed?

Sebastian

Stop hiding, show why you did that ruling, in video and argument. The refuse-to-explain is just stupid. Specially in a WC.

 

[Giobbi]

The rule is too fuzzy - it's not consequent, for one judge it mean white, for another red. One person nodges big, someone else small. It has to be clearer like - airways i water means red card - nodges above white.

Simple, hard to make mistake here.

 

[TimoP]

The rule is too fuzzy - it's not consequent, for one judge it mean white, for another red. One person nodges big, someone else small. It has to be clearer like - airways i water means red card - nodges above white.

Simple, hard to make mistake here.

Exactly, thats the point here.
Now AIDA is starting to make changes to the Rules and to Judge experience system. Things that have been only dreams for years.
This case :rcard showed once again that something must by done, if we want that freediving has clear and fair competitions like they have in (almost all) other sport.
Lets make it change now, we have seen enough!

 

[cebaztian]

Already a PBMM is a joke but this rulling is even bigger joke. What was this judges thinking? But even after this mistake they had time and chance to change the decision. Why didn't they? This kind of rulling makes AIDA competitions a farse. Everything was already said about this after the WC in Aarhus... many good sugestions were writen in those posts. I feel sorry for the athlete. Pitty that people in AIDA who have the power, do not have the courage to change what needs to be changed and what only they can change.
Miha

Technical committee has a new officer, he is working, lets see if he has some balls. First thing to do would be to actually investigate what the AIDA members want. A questionnaire.
There are even those (inside the board) with clear thinking that sees the flaws of the judge ladder/experience progression. But most high level judges/Aida officers have any personal interests in changing anything.
Assembly is sleeping - when they awake (happens once in a while) things usually change.
I for one are waiting to see what Antero will do with his 2 years.
Sebastian

 

[TimoP]

From the athletics' point of view we have now really good AIDA Technical Committee. There are many world class athletics and other competive people to make a good proposals to the AIDA Board about changes to the AIDA Rules. Now we really have a chance, that something happens to the Rules after waiting for years for that.

 

[pehtran]

After seeing this unfortunate judging the tapping of judge's forhead seems to me a far fairer and more logical rule. And not so funny rule anymore. And remember: no so long ago we were laughing at this CMAS rule. Now CMAS athleet's are tapping the board and AIDA is going in the direction of employing a psychoanalysts who will have a final say weather the athleete is sane or not. I mean we need a simple rule. It can also mean that an athlete must recite the entire AIDA board upon surfacing but it must be clear rule and easy to judge. PBMM was a step in the wrong direction. I am sure we will have to accept at one point that in this sport athletes lose consciousness from time to time and others are nodding their heads - it is not something we should be ashamed off.
And yes I agree and I am still in favor of an airways above water rule.
Miha

 

[chrismar]

Give us Stig's Survival Rules.

 

[Bill]

'PBMM was a step in the wrong direction.'
I think that is a very clear statement of the problem.
This isn't the first time it has been abused.

 

[pehtran]

Give us Stig's Survival Rules.

Well... you sure know how to put it plain and simple

 

[Kars]

Why do we have PBMM?

What's the difference between a LMC and PBMM? (sounds almost like a rebranding)

Is there a practical way to reduce samba's? ( is the current protocol difficult enough? )

Should we not be realistic about breath-hold diving and live with the samba and BO facts?

 

[Jouskari]

I´m kinda with Kars on this one.

E.g. If you compete in Moto Cross there will always be different kind of accidents. Still if you crash you are allowed to continue if you are capable to. So far I know, there has not been any rules made to make MotoX more viewer friendly by trying to eliminate the chance for anyone to crash. Yes, safety is a big issue, but based on what I´ve seen on X-games accidents (even horrible ones) can´t really be avoided by adding rules if they want to keep the intensity of the sport.

Ok, freediving is different and a line needs to be drawn to make judging possible. Still I think it is unnecessary for us to try to control something that is really hard to control or don´t even need controlling. LMC and PBMM:s imo is a part of this sport and as long as the rules are clear and simple (protocol, airways above water, and maybe even touching something) there shouldn´t be a need to try to micromanage performances. As so many other sports competetive freediving might never become a really big thing... and personally I think that is just good as I kinda like the small sports feel to freediving. However UFC etc. pretty much lives on the brutality of the sport so who knows. A year from now we might have a cable channel demanding closeups of the blackouts...(like in boxing)

 

[Kars]

It has become a dominant meme in the freediving culture and education to tell the world that freediving is a safe sport.

I think this is not in line with reality.

Unlike chess, tennis, jogging, if you do not pay attention while freediving you can have a fatal accident easily.

Why do we feel the need to defend our sport?
I too had conversations with my parents, about my 'death wish' hobby, and I too sold, I mean tried to sell it as a safe and peaceful sport. Words did not work, only the fact I'm still ok . Having grown a bit and TIME has put my parents fear partly to rest.

Freediving culture has not reached maturity jet, we still feel obliged to warrant our passion to our peers and the media.

 

[Giobbi]

Its an extremesport. We pushes ourselfs to the max.

Why trying to make it a "nice" sport? As Kars says; shouldn't we be more realistic? I think so.

I have high hopes on Antero.

p

 

[Simos]

Why do we have PBMM?

What's the difference between a LMC and PBMM? (sounds almost like a rebranding)

Is there a practical way to reduce samba's? ( is the current protocol difficult enough? )

Should we not be realistic about breath-hold diving and live with the samba and BO facts?

Yup from a practical point of view the obvious thing to do is get rid of the PBMM rule. As you say if you accept that LMCs are 'ok' there is hardly any point of not accepting PBMMs if the airways stay out

I see competitive freediving as a different kind of beast - in the WC competitors will push to the max. Not allowing PBMMs will do nothing to safety since LMCs are ok.

Back in the 'real' world of recreational freediving, spearfishing etc none of these (LMCs, BOs etc) are really 'acceptable' anyway so don't think that giving a white card for PBMM will make recreational freediving less safe in any way

 

[Kars]

I think people have no trouble understanding the difference between competition skiing, and leisure skiing, competition breath-hold diving and freediving.