Apnea, Suicide and Depression

[tobal777]

very good information, eric's post gives us some good information about where apnea can lead you...
Moreover i would like to relate my experience in 2 steps :

First configuration: apnea as a 'pure hobby'
This step is what most of people do :
Light training, leisure oriented
Light hypoxemia and Hypercapnic states
Light lactic trainings

This configuration, that i practised a lot, leaded me to a high pleasure and balance in my life. Apnea calmness regulates heavy pace of life of 'big city life'. It regulates the stress and gives a cool down to what we experience in our day to day life.
It has a low impact on social life, as trainings are not impacting our 'standard way of life'

Second configuration: apnea as a competition sport
This step is pratised by medium/high level competitorrs :
Intense training, results oriented
High hypoxemia and Hypercapnic states
High lactic trainings

These king of trainings has a lot of counter effects. And can probably lead to severe depression exhausted states if not handled carefully.
High lactic trainings need long times of rest (sport expert limit to 1xV02max training per week for athletes : our lactic training lead to the same kind of impact on our body)
High hypoxemia and Hypercapnic states can probably affect the body in the same terms (see eric's post before)
repeated trainings with low resting time lead to gradual physical alteration (not externally cause you look fit, but global resistance of the body) and psychological alteration.
Physic exhaustivness lead to direct psychological impact

Moreover these kind of trainings has strong implication on your way of life : low social life, heavy diet (eating, drinking pleasure is almost banned)

After some months of heavy training, i realized that these implication were leading me to depression (border effects came : frequent illnesses, introversion, 'black' state...).

-----
A study has been made on heavy trained athletes. This study shows that swimmers are the most affected by depressive states....

My conclusion is that a good balance between leisure/performance has to be found. This balance is personnal, and comes from what you need for introversion and extraversion to be happy, but also what is your 'outside apnea' life...

 

[Fondueset]

I'll add a little here - even though it is not specific to freediving. I also qualify it by saying I do not advocate this as an approach or solution. It is simply my own experience into which I was plunged without recourse to technique or strategy.

At one point a convergence of events, internal and external, resulted in what I experienced as a generalized implosion of my life. I was radically depressed and even suffered a very severe panic attack - which felt like a white-hot poker jammed through the center of my chest. A horrible sensation that makes you want to escape with every fiber of your being - but cannot be escaped.

I will say that somewhere along the way I picked up the 'idea' that what 'is' - essentially, is beyond states and the dichotomy of 'knowing' and is only obstructed by any compensatory counter-mechanisms I might engage to counteract negative or otherwise undesireable states. My opinion is that intentionally cultivating positive states, when skillfully engaged, has a compensatory 'first-aide' value - but is not a substitue for real insight and transcendance and, when regarded as a 'solution', is just another layer on the onion - albiet an artificial one. It is a characteristic of egoic consciousness to be predisposed to 'fix' things by 'doing'. Not that such approaches are not sometimes effective and warranted. I don't say I'm absolutely right - but this perspective informed my approach.

My response to this really actute and psychologically crippling depression, after having had some time to think about it, was to fall straight through the black hole - letting go whatever came up along the way. I have a friend who practices a kind of therapy based on deep relaxation and I sought her out. energetically her presence was a kind of mild 'pressure' which helped me to stay focused and to fully experience everything that was wanting to boil up - without grabbing onto it. The technology of her specific approach was more or less noise - it was her non-reactionary and focused presence which seemed to be catalytic. There was an underlying desperation with which I entered into this that was beyond looking for anything, beyond resignation, hope etc.

In my own case - in retrospect, there was a rush of profoundly poignant insights - really really sad things that were underneath anger and other coping mechanisms. It was intensely emotional and cathartic in the conventional sense. At some point all that came to rest and I felt 'done'. It was then suggested that I attend to a specific location in my body - which I chose based on a vague feeling of indifference - when I did this there was almost immediately an intensely horrifying sense of fragmentation - as though my identity was expanding to where my sense of discreet continuity as an individual was breaking into shards and being blown away by an irresistable wind. Another description would be that I felt inexorably sucked through an opening that was much too small for me and then exploded, as chaos, on the other side. At this point descriptions become misleading. It would be safe to say it was a completely profound shift from the identity of the experiencer to the absolutely inclusive context of all experience, form and states.

Suffice it to say there was an unqualified sense of ease, joy, and knowlege in a sense that is beyond 'knowing' that, while it certainly informs the individual, is utterly impersonal - one could express the effect as a kind of unqualified confidence and ease.

From the perspective of practices which may be self-destructive such insight tends to effectively undermine the mechanisms which would motivate them. The obvious dichotomy is between experiences like what I've described and depression with a quantifyable physiological basis which calls for specific changes in action. The line between them is interesting.

 

[azapa]

what an interesting thread. well done for not letting it die I identify with many of these profiles:
- i like not typical sports (not to say the word extreme)
- i am NOT a team player
- i have an above average fear of death, for some reason motor accidents (car/bike/plane) horrify me, yet I drive a sports car and 600CC enduro bike?? what the hell does this mean?

I have had one very negative experience re apnea, but only on a speardiving session, late in the day, long shadows under the water. Gloom and doom came over me. I could not explain it. My downtimes halved, I had no desire to be there, and simply left the water. It has never happened since.

Right now, sitting in my office, knowing that I'll be in the water in 3 hours, is the best feeling in the world...

Have a great and safe weekend all.

 

[Erik]

My 2 favourite philosophers:

 

[octopus]

Weeeell.....I can see how suicide can lead to apnea, but I am struggling to connect it the other way round.

 

[Fondueset]

I don't think anyone was comparing.

 

[trux]

There is no more suicide/depression in apnea than in other sports, silly to think otherwise.

I wouldn't be so sure. At least not until I see some serious statistical research. I do not mean that freediving or apnea is the cause of increased depressions or behind some suicides. Quite the opposite: I do not exclude that the sport, because of its isolating character and its (on my mind) positive influence on depressions (at least as for the recreational and intermediate competitive levels goes) attracts people who may be more inclined to depressions, bipolarity, or other psychological or social troubles. The frequency of threads here on DB discussing similar topics, and the number of freedivers admitting some level of depressions or occasional suicidal moods definitely makes me think there may be some deeper relation. The last two threads discussing the topic are as follows, but I saw it discussed much more often here: http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/69261-treatment-depressions-hypoxemia.html, http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/70332-psychology-freediving-feedback-needed.html

I may be wrong, of course. On the other hand, try entering keywords like hypoxia, hypoxemia, apnea together with psychiatry, depression or similar words into Google (I did). You will get hundreds of links to medical documents discussing different aspects and relation of hypoxia, apnea and breathing with the psychical states and disorders. There definitely is a huge link between apnea / breath-control and the psychics / brain functioning. It is not without a reason that yoga, singing, playing wind instruments and other activities teaching you to control your breath properly are often used also therapeutically. Why should it be different with freediving? And I bet that many people suffering from some problems find out intuitively that freediving is suiting them well and helping them to cope with it, and that's why they became freedivers. And if it is so, it would not be surprising that some percentage of them will suicide anyway, despite of the positive effects.

In the same time, I agree with Eric that the effects of apnea may be also negative - there are always highs and downs, and every medicine, every therapy, or every poison may have both positive and negative effects just because of the dozing (the principle of homeopathy). So why not apnea.

My personal (uneducated) opinion is that exercising apnea and freediving is beneficial for the body and soul, but of course, as any other drug, one should not abuse it, and especially not if you are not strong enough to handle it.

 

[TRITON]

This topic just reminds how little infact we know about "apnea" and how much it affects our every day life.
In the past years I've had some thoughts related with suicide and what's interesting I've always imagined my "eventual" suicide as a freedive from which I would not ascend.I would just keep on gliding into the abyss until the end......And these thoughts were mostly on my mind when I was in a state of depression and this looked as the only "way out".Nowadays these moments are pretty rare but I'm sure that apnea has changed me and my perception of life.

 

[Erik]

There is no more suicide/depression in apnea than in other sports, silly to think otherwise.

Diversharm

Your statement is based on what? Any references to cite? Possibly you're correct and more probably it can't be measured, but nobody was asking, and insulting members' opinions IF they are offered ain't cool, dude.

 

[Jon]

I've yet to feel any negative effects from apnea. I haven't had any suicidal thoughts while diving- or otherwise.

I have known some tech divers with these isssues and simpy choose not to dive with them- over fear that they would want a partner in their quest!

The only 'negative' thing I can relate to the sport came a few years ago after my Grandfather died. My father had died at a young age and my Grandfather and I became pretty close- seems he lost his father at a young age as well.

Anyway, after he died I was so shaken up that I couldn't even do a 20 second breathhold for at least a week. Eventually the things passed and I was able to get back into the water again- he didn't die in the water or anything I was just so shaken up be his passing I couldn't contemplate a breath hold dive.

I had no problems running, biking, or swimming. Anything that involved breathing, no matter how fast or hard, was just fine. As a matter of fact it seemed to help deal with the loss by going for a good heart-pounding run.

Maybe Eric, or someone else, might have an explaination why such strong feelings of grief would respond positively to aerobic exercise, but completely hobble my apnea abilities?

Jon

 

[wes]

I went thru an intense "dark" period that involved windsurfing. After I had quit my engineering job to start my own company making windsurifing products I was very disappointed that the very hard work I had put into it had left me broke with my saving gone. During this time I windsurfed alot in the Columbia River Gorge which is very physically intense. I loved the times I was windsurfing and was testing gear that I had made so it was kind of like work. The problem was that it left me peacefully yet physically drained so much so that I wasn't able to focus on my work for the rest of the day. I would sail for 2-3 hours in often 25kts to 35kts winds and would be at a loss of breath often due to crashes and so fourth so unkowingly hypoxic I am sure. The peacefull fulfilled feeling after widsurfing as the day wore on would slowly creep away to be replaced by severe immobilizing depression over my worsening situation. Later I realized that I was using windsurfing to avoid facing the difficult situation I had made for myself and that it steadily made things worse and worse. The solution I came up with was a rule for myself only to go windsurfing if that was the only (work type) thing I would do that day and the rest of the day would be taken off. This worked very well as I would focus on the work that needed to be done and then every week or so treat myself to a full day of relaxation and play including a session of windsurfing. On these days I would have the same elation and peaceful feelings afterward though as these feeling faded and the "real world" crowded back into my brain I could look at it objectively without feeling I needed to "do something" to fix it as I was taking the whole day off and this led to many insights about things I needed to do to change and imporve myself, my business and my situation. I think that my story has many similarities to the one Eric Fattah shared earlier though we took differnt paths to "fix" our situations.

I would recommend this idea to anyone who is battling with depression to take what I now call a "spa day", a whole day and do only things that are nourishing and fun, and most importantly to NOT do anything for the future or that is needed for another day. I think we live in the future so much in our brains worrying about what we need to be doing that we often lose perspective of what is really important to do and are quite ineffective at getting things done. By forcing myself to NOT do anything for the future for a whole day like this helps alot to figure out what is really important to do for the future so that once I set out to do these thing they come easily and get done without and extra mental effort. Hope this all makes sense.
Cheers Wes

 

[Fondueset]

I went through something similar with Hatha Yoga. Basically I wasn't 'listening' and needed to shift emphasis.

 

[cebaztian]

- i have an above average fear of death, for some reason motor accidents (car/bike/plane) horrify me, yet I drive a sports car and 600CC enduro bike?? what the hell does this mean?

Interesting. I have always claimed that I am not afraid of death - and my argument has been that I am drawn to dangerous stuff (not the destructive stuff) and I have also nearly lost my life, which did not bother me that much.
But now I have another theory - maybe its because of fear of death that one is drawn closer to it - to explore it and try to control that walk on the line.
?

Sebastian

 

[maytag]

Thanks to the starter and contributors of this thread.

Thought I'd share my .000001 cent's worth...

I am not afraid to die. I am actually looking forward to it.

My PBs in dry static (as I've still not managed to get proper training) is when I am so down I do not care whether I see another day. Perhaps it is then when I can really go "no holds barred." So far, my best is 3m50s still. That is nothing to brag about on this forum, but it gives my family endless cocktail conversation.

I had a personal loss of sorts less than a year ago that has been difficult to live with. I thought about hang-gliding and freediving. The views one gets from either sport are spectacular, and the science behind both are fascinating. The people I know, I admire so much for their great spirit and unbelievable breadth of knowledge. These risky sports I sought seemed like a win-win: surviving, I will have seen and experienced things relatively few people do. If I don't survive, well, I rest in peace.

Having hung around here - initially purely for the information - I have gotten to know (as best one can through these forums) and genuinely care about folks here. I remember Jon and BIll McIntyre's posts about having to try and resucsitate (sp?) people, and I no longer approach this - even my as-yet latent interest in this sport - with even a modicum of a death wish.

To those of you for whom Deeper Blue is also a shade of mood, all my empathy and best wishes to you always.

To end on a light note and offer a laugh at my expense: someone tried to set me up with a total blind date. I really hate these things and my close friends know better. Well, I hate reciting my CV, so I tried to give some facts that better reflect my personality, one being that my claim to fame in my family is being able to hold my breath for 3m 50s. The guy replied saying that he personally doesn't date anyone who can hold her breath longer than he can.

Anyway, take good care of yourselves.

 

[trux]

The guy replied saying that he personally doesn't date anyone who can hold her breath longer than he can.

And how long could he?

 

[shoutatthesky]

Maytag, Just a thought. Maybe you just want to experience a close shave with death to give you more of a will to live? By getting close to death the value of life becomes clearer.

 

[SnuFPunK]

I surrender to the waters and die everytime I freedive.
Then I find myself back to life - above water, breathing.

Im not depressed though, or looking for death.
This is just what happends to my mind while I freedive, It goes somewhere else, releasing its hold on my body - letting me glide into a deep meditative state.

~ Snuf.

 

[neshamah]

grew up near the Caribbean Ocean, a couple of blocks away from the coast.
I would spend hours and hours in the ocean venturing and enjoying its beauty.
I was able to get on top of the ceiling from my house and I could see the
beach, it was so beautiful to be able to contemplate that
but still I felt an emptiness inside of me. I was so close to the creation
but didn't know its creator. I came to the USA leaving behind
memories but still I felt that emptiness inside of me. I was away from the ocean
about 10 years. I felt like a bird when is imprisoned in a cage, knowing that its
life was to fly but so close to me was reality. When I came to this country my aunt talked
to me about that faith, about that love that three years after I got to know. It was as if
I had enjoyed something without realizing where it came from. After ten years I submerged again but this time with a new perspective, now knowing that all these things, and not with that emptiness I once felt, now when i submerge I know He is inside of me, I know He teaches me and guides me. I could see the reality come to pass and I know that I submerge with the One that for many years I didn't know "My Creator." Each moment now feels so excellent and divine, and He himself with His peace invites me to continue: Dear Friend if you submerge in His creation you can also get to know its Creator.



_________

you want to scape from depression??/

get to know Jesus in your heart , and study the bible

 

[Mr. X]

Well, I think any "extreme" sport lures a bit of people with maybe some hidden suicidal tendencies. And I guess many consider freediving an extreme sport, even if I don't.

Of course there are such people in every group, but the probablity of finding one in a extreme sport scene might be a little higher?

It might be also that for people, who already have problems, freediving gives some relief and that is why they become hooked in the first place. Ie, freediving does not necessarily cause the problem, but people with problems are attracted to it.

I think there is some truth in this. I used to rock climb a lot & it gave me a huge, almost spiritual surge. I wasn't suicidal but nor was I particularly concerned about living to a ripe old age nor was I overly fearful dying (the risk of being maimed should be a greater concern these days). However, the more I read about it, the more it became clear that there is a dark side to the physcology of it. It is a superb exercise (& produces plenty of endorphins) but it is a selfish sport, in many ways. I noticed that having children normally abruptly marked the end of most climbers' more extreme efforts -- it gave them a very concrete reason to live, the risks were no longer justified and there is a need to become more selfless. Things are a little different these days, with the growth of safe bolt-protected sport climbing.

Some people find the routine of normal life stiflingly dull. Dangerous activities & sports can re-awaken dulled senses. If the endorphins are allowed to subside, then no doubt a low will follow the high.

I read that the two top solo rock climbers in the USA, John Bachar & Peter Croft, came from broken homes, etc. (these guys climb the big walls in Yosemite, without ropes or support, often by the most difficult established routes). I wasn't surprised. Life is simple on a climb, there are clear objectives, dangers, etc. - and the experience often transcendental.

BTW I always thought drowning would be a horrible way to die but diving this week it occured to me how peaceful it was. Drifting into SWB would be incredibly peaceful. Getting caught up underwater while trying to get to the surface is a different matter.

 

[azapa]

to add, i hope:
In my sports, Snowboarding, swimming, driving, I often have a background theme in my head: a work problem, a song, etc
With freediving, that background theme can not exist. The experience completely overwhelms anything that may be happening at that moment. Maybe this is why coming back to the real world, the days stored problems, is such a jolt for some freedivers.

One personal and memorable experience to illustrate this point: I am standing in my living room getting my wetsuit on (yes, really) ready to walk down to the beach. The phone rings and I answer, my lawyer gives me (business wise) this years worst news. I decide to go down to the water anyway after the call (the suit is so bloody hard to get on, i wasn't taking it off again!). On entering the water, this news was completely forgotten. I mean, stunningly, totally obliterated from my head. An hour and a half later, on leaving the water, the problem instantly (unfortunately) poured back into me. That was a dull moment, that I can see if combined with more problems/and or chronic depression, could trigger some pretty bad thoughts.

So, thats the problem: freediving is too much fun?!