Corona discussion.

[grarena]

There are no keyboard warriors here. You made your point. You now need to be told you are right to be happy and appeased. It’s isn’t necessarily the things you say are wrong but the way you go about it. I get it. You are a direct assertive (agressive) debater. That’s fine. I can be too. Take it from someone kinda like that you have taken it a bit far. I think as I recall I started the whole thing off. Look back I think that’s correct. There is a point where you back off. Just because someone is right doesn’t make this right. Just an internet site. The keyboard warrior comment is kinda ironic lol.
We won’t always agree on all things. I agree China sucks. Again I agree on many of your points just not your methods. Like getting in a fight with your wife. There are ways to be slick and win or make a point. Beating it like a dead horse when you are right doesn’t make it still right.

 

[Woohoo]

There are no keyboard warriors here. You made your point. You now need to be told you are right to be happy and appeased. It’s isn’t necessarily the things you say are wrong but the way you go about it. I get it. You are a direct assertive (agressive) debater. That’s fine. I can be too. Take it from someone kinda like that you have taken it a bit far. I think as I recall I started the whole thing off. Look back I think that’s correct. There is a point where you back off. Just because someone is right doesn’t make this right. Just an internet site. The keyboard warrior comment is kinda ironic lol.
We won’t always agree on all things. I agree China sucks. Again I agree on many of your points just not your methods. Like getting in a fight with your wife. There are ways to be slick and win or make a point. Beating it like a dead horse when you are right doesn’t make it still right.

Apart from the keyboard warrior comment being ironic, as I’m 100% not a keyboard warrior, that was a good post and I trust your judgement. I still think that grown adults should be able to go toe to toe with their opinions and ideas without feeling victimised, but I guess these are different times we live in. I’ve re-read my posts and I still don’t think I crossed the line at all. Suggesting another poster was ‘cult’ like in his thinking was probably the only thing I’d take back.

However, as you’ve made clear this isn’t the forum for ‘aggressive’ debate and I shall revert back to using the forum solely for the purpose of telling people how badly I suck at spearfishing and benefiting from the vast amount of knowledge and experience on offer.

 

[grarena]

Well done. It takes a big person to make those comments on your end. You know you and I are old school. We can have a spirited debate and at the end of the day (sick of that cliche) we can agree to disagree and act like it never happened. Now I can’t do that with my wife. Her feeling are hurt and I’ll be reminded repeatedly. The key is to adapt to the situation and person. If you were going hard at me I’d laugh and probably enjoy the banter. You were raised probably a lot like me. I’m never a victim and I wanna hear all sides and I might actually change my position if it makes sense. That’s healthy. Thanks for keeping it civil. On another side I’m here cause I’m a pretty good static apnea guy lol. Been training non stop 1.5 years. I’m 63 and I’m not much on dynamic (best only 50 meters) but when it comes to static I think I’m pretty competitive. Started 1.5 years ago with a 4:10. Have trained very consistently. Maybe 1 day off a week at most. The progression is the following. usually the increases were 2-3 months of hard training then peak.
4:10 then hit 5:00. Soon hit 5:30. 2 months 6:00
3 months hit 6:45. Then 3 months 7:33. Then really trained hard. I measured my progress by the number of breath holds in a week over 5:00.
Then hit 30 holds over 5:00 a week for 2 months.
Did 8:05.
A month later 8:45. That was 3 weeks ago. Hoping to crack 9:00 soon. I’d like to compete At some point to make it official

 

[J Campbell]

Baring in mind that on at least 3 occasions I said that we’re far from perfect when it comes to animal welfare in the West. It is after all a very hard balance to strike. We want animals to suffer as little as possible, while at the same time accepting that animals being bred for human consumption is an inevitable and natural part of human life.

I’m fairly sure most chickens are electrocuted or gassed before they are killed, thus minimising the suffering as much as possible. Not sure what point you were trying to make as I don’t see how that compares to countries were there are no laws whatsoever to protect the welfare of animals.

My point was in response to your claim that in America we aren't cruel to animals. They do electrocute chickens, which is indeed very cruel - and unnecessary. I can come up with alot more uneccessary cruelty to farm animals, if you like.

 

[Leander]

You know, Woohoo, in a different setting, a different forum perhaps, I would have happily argued with you till my fingers were bleeding from the typing.
But here on DB, a chat like this was very much unsuspected and caught me off guard. English not being my native language, while it is for you, made me an easy target. It's hard for me to pick the right words, and even then most of it can be interpreted in an unintended way or bent to wherever a more social or liguistic adapt person wants.

If your questions were formulated to get a better understanding of my point of view then I wouldn't mind. Your first round looked genuine, but with your second round it became clear that your goal wasn't to understand, but to teach me that my 'left wing ideology' is wrong.
I don't deal in left, right, center or whatever political direction. I only care about respect, which is why I try to understand other cultures, but also conversation partners, and don't try to prove my superiority or them wrong. Of course some of your remarks got me thinking, and of some I learned. Thank you for that. But the way you brought it was disrespectful.

I hope that with this I explained my way of thinking enough, because we're pretty much done here. I guess I have to thank you for reminding me that on the internet -everything- is a trap to get you into a political fight. Thank you for reminding me that I'm wasting my time and energy here, while the world around me is still broken.
My feverish feelings went away this night and today is a lovely day. It's nice and warm, 18°C, sunny, a light breeze and hardly any waves. Perfect time for a lionfish hunt! I'm going to prepare the next one raw, with some soy sauce and mango. :yumm:

Btw, fish and corona. Isn't fish loaded with vitamin D, which is very important in fighting the flu and so perhaps also other infections of the same kind?

 

[Leander]

My point was in response to your claim that in America we aren't cruel to animals. They do electrocute chickens, which is indeed very cruel - and unnecessary. I can come up with alot more uneccessary cruelty to farm animals, if you like.

Thank you very much. Now these images of chick culling by maceration are stuck in my head again. Baby chickens, put in a grinder ALIVE simple because they were born as a male. Link to google images for if you want nightmares (click).

More examples indeed, 'foie gras' in France: ducks and goose being force-fed through a tube. And this is actually a practise protected by law under the banner of cultural heritage.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Right folks - this thread had just been brought to my attention. Please keep this civil and remember to stay inside the forum rules. The debate is encouraged but when it turns into personal attacks this is not the forum for that. It seems cooler heads have started to prevail as multiple posts have been self-deleted.

I'm keeping this thread open for now but it will be locked should it continue to get out of hand.

 

[Leander]

You're right, Stephnan. This thread got out of hand (and off topic) way to fast and way too much. I accept my part of the blame and want to apologise for it. I should know better and be more careful, especially as a new member. I had multiple chances to walk away from it but I kept coming back. Sorry.

 

[grarena]

It’s all good here.

 

[cdavis]

To extend the subject:
Has anybody seen evidence of their government implementing the kind of system used to beat the virus in S Korea, massive testing of most everybody plus the tech/quarantine system to make use of that data. That type of system is critical to both fully suppressing the epidemic and keeping it suppressed until we get a vaccine. Without a S Korean type system, all the economic pain of social distancing/lockdowns will just have to be repeated(or continued) until enough people have caught it to develop effective herd immunity(and/or we get a vaccine).


I had thought it was coming fast in the US, but looks like the efforts are almost all private companies doing very limited testing of the sick with no overall coordination or planning for what's next.

 

[Leander]

I think the SK mass-tracking system is something Euro leaders are not too kind on to implement. Privacy, even though it's not anymore what it used to be, still is a hot topic.

 

[grarena]

195,000 tested. 22,000 positive. Testing ramping up. 282 dead. 1.27% mortality as low as Korea and will be even lower soon. Look to be 1% mortality soon. Only country with lower North Korea lol.

thjngs are on track in 4 weeks to slowly resume activity. In 2 months almost everything a full go. This is going to be over sooner than later. It’s being handled very well now sans the slow testing early but this is gonna end well soon.

 

[Leander]

But how will this go in the future? People tested negative can still get it. So even if there remains one virus source active, it could generate another spike. Extra difficulty is that this is now everywhere in the world. Big cities will be past this very soon, but it will then still be creeping to the remote places. So we will probably have to keep testing and monitoring for years.

I wonder mainly about how this will affect life after the big spikes when the society and economy are restarted. Will there be a change in the way we interact? Will the handshake return as greeting, does work-from-home stay or are we going back to the daily traffic jam to the office? Or public transport, is this it's death-sentence? Self-driving car sharing, or car sharing in general, doomed?

 

[cdavis]

Work from home has been coming slowly. This will accelerate it to the max, and there is no going back. Once they figure out how to do it right, companies will save a huge amount eliminating office space they no longer need. It will do some interesting things to real estate. People will need a work space. All those huge Mcmansions that the younger generation don't want anymore will suddenly look more attractive. Who knows what else.

I think most of the other economic effects are failures of national leadership that can be fixed. The S Koreans maintained some of the structure developed for SARS and were able to react quickly and stop their epidemic with minimal economic impact. Western governments were not so smart and are reaping a horrible economic hit as a result. Maintain a decent monitoring ability and some infrastructure for epidemics and future bugs can be stopped before we get to this point. All it takes is leadership. The need for mass transit and the technological push away from private ownership of cars will continue.

 

[grarena]

It would not have mattered who was president. Moving forward I think we will be better prepared but Obama was Not prepared for H1N1 and if this bug had happened in 2009 then what? I may be wrong that you think leadership other than trump we would better off?

 

[Ralph Freeman]

I'm located in the US and our numbers are rising fast by the hour/day. Even though we saw China, Italy, Spain, and other countries with the C-spread and had "information", you take things for granite until it comes into your backyard, then it's too late! We are on lock down till May 15 with just essential businesses open.. real strange.

 

[catFishInMyHand]

It’s very worrying that you keep saying things are like for like when in fact they are completely different. Our systems may not be perfect but we most certainly do not cook animals why they are still alive, slit their throats to let them bleed out etc. We try to do things as humanely as we possibly can. Only a certain kind of human being puts no value whatsoever on the life of living creatures.

Read the book 'Eating Animals' by Jonathan Foer, I absolutely guarantee that you will be unable to think that what the "civilized world" does to animals is not every bit as disgusting as how animals are treated anywhere in the planet. It is unspeakably saddening to know that so many people are so naive about where their food comes from, and the atrocities that they are financially supporting.

 

[catFishInMyHand]

I messed up my quote and dont see any option to edit my post to fix it.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

I messed up my quote and dont see any option to edit my post to fix it.

I fixed this for you.

 

[Woohoo]

Read the book 'Eating Animals' by Jonathan Foer, I absolutely guarantee that you will be unable to think that what the "civilized world" does to animals is not every bit as disgusting as how animals are treated anywhere in the planet. It is unspeakably saddening to know that so many people are so naive about where their food comes from, and the atrocities that they are financially supporting.

Just flicked through a few of the most relevant chapters. Didn’t read anything that particularly surprised or shocked me. I have said at least 4 times that we are a long way from being perfect ourselves, and that mass producing living creatures for human consumption will always lead to a certain level of unfortunate and unpleasant treatment. It’s regrettable but to a degree unavoidable. Things could and should be improved further.

However, I refuse to accept that the two are comparable. We simply would not tolerate animals being kicked and beaten to death because it was deemed to improve the flavour. We would not stand by while people were boiling animals alive and allow it to continue. We wouldn’t allow people to drag millions of critically endangered sharks from the sea, cut of their fins and toss the dying creature back to die, just so we could make some make belief, aphrodisiac soup.

That kind of abnormal behaviour is on a complete different level to what takes place in the West. Not only that, but you yourself implied how ‘naive people were to the atrocities they were financially supporting’. Suggesting perhaps the main issue lies with the greedy, less than scrupulous farmers and factory owners and not the culture of the general population itself, who you believe would be saddened if they were more knowledgeable. Does the average Chinese man give two hoots about the dog being kicked to death or boiled alive? I think not, and therein lies the difference.