Corona discussion.

[catFishInMyHand]

Does the average Chinese man give two hoots about the dog being kicked to death or boiled alive? I think not, and therein lies the difference.

There are plenty of videos available of chicks being ground alive in factory farms. It is very common for lobsters to be boiled alive in all parts of the world. We pack them into cages so tight that they cant spread their wings for their entire lives. We castrate them, we cut off their tails, and their horns so they can fit tighter into cages.

 

[catFishInMyHand]

Does the average Chinese man give two hoots about the dog being kicked to death or boiled alive? I think not, and therein lies the difference.

My last message got prematurely posted... We regularly starve egg laying chickens for weeks to force molting, often times to the point of starving a tenth of them to death. Why do we treat animals so awfully? So otherwise, kind, loving people, who would never dream of carrying out these horrendous acts themselves can enjoy a cheap meal while they painfully ironically look down on other cultures for mistreating animals. It is disgusting, and more disgusting is that even people who claim to know what is going on are ok with it. I hope you take a long hard look at yourself and really consider the pain that your actions cause on other living beings, you better hope like hell that there is no cosmic justice in this universe that will some day make you feel the way that you so willing make others feel in the name of your own selfish fleeting pleasure.

 

[J Campbell]

Woohoo. Ever eat steamed/baked clams, oysters, crabs, lobster?

 

[Woohoo]

There are plenty of videos available of chicks being ground alive in factory farms. It is very common for lobsters to be boiled alive in all parts of the world. We pack them into cages so tight that they cant spread their wings for their entire lives. We castrate them, we cut off their tails, and their horns so they can fit tighter into cages.

It is now, and has been for a very long time, common procedure to freeze, or brain lobsters and crabs before they are boiled. A huge percentage of people have taken that on board. We learnt, we changed, we progressed.

I believe technology to determine the sex of a chick before it is hatched is in the pipeline, if it hasn’t been implemented already. Ultimately I’m sure that’s where we’ll end up. Why? Because we learn, we change, we evolve.

One day old chicks being instantly crushed to death is comparable to dogs and cats being burnt alive or beaten or boiled to death? You think the levels of pain, suffering and awareness are remotely comparable? One is 50 times worse than the other. Also, one will ultimately be replaced by a better more humane procedure and the other will continue unabated.

you better hope like hell that there is no cosmic justice in this universe that will some day make you feel the way that you so willing make others feel in the name of your own selfish fleeting pleasure.

I’m sure you want that to be true so badly you’ve convinced yourself it is. If one day I have to experience the exact same sensation and level of conscious awareness (close to zero) that a one day old chick experiences, as it goes in to a meat grinder for half a second, then no problem, fair’s fair. Ask me to be a dog and be burnt, boiled and kicked to death and It'd be a different story. That’s suffering on an inhuman level. It’d be veggie burgers for me.

 

[Woohoo]

I failed to touch on the subject of hygiene, which of course is the most relevant given the original topic. If it goes against people’s globalist view to dare compare one culture to another and suggest that one is maybe better than the other, then perhaps we could use different words. Maybe we could say that some cultures are more advanced than others or some less developed. Maybe those words are less offensive?

Please tell me anywhere in the Western world this disgusting, global pandemic causing, lack of hygiene exists?

(Video is actually shot in Indonesia and not Wuhan as claimed)

 

[Woohoo]

Woohoo. Ever eat steamed/baked clams, oysters, crabs, lobster?

Don't like clams or oysters. Love crab and lobster. Why’s that?

 

[J Campbell]

No one freezes or "brains" the fresh bluecrabs we eat here in Maryland.

 

[Woohoo]

No one freezes or "brains" the fresh bluecrabs we eat here in Maryland.

So your argument in the discussion whether all cultures are equal, specifically whether the animal rights in the West are comparable to the animal rights in some Asian cultures, is to compare the boiling live of cats and dogs to the boiling live of crustaceans and mollusks. Brilliant!

Personally I would put them to sleep in the freezer first because why not? If it helped in the slightest bit and was no hardship to me then why wouldn’t you. I’m not sure how you pointing out that I care more for the welfare of crabs than you do, is a particularly good tactic in your assumption that I’m less informed about animal suffering than you are?

 

[Leander]

Suggesting perhaps the main issue lies with the greedy, less than scrupulous farmers and factory owners and not the culture of the general population itself

I actually agree with you here (believe it or not! ) The most horrible part of the meat industry is that all the torture is simply done to save money. Instead of using less cruel, but more expensive, killing and farming methods, they simply keep the public in the dark. Ever noticed how meat and dairy packages always feature drawings of happy animals?

Now we can argue whether or not our quest for the greatest profit margin is part of our (either national- or human-)culture, but the fact that we need laws to protect the animals says a lot about our true nature. If we were so kind and loving the term 'animal rights' wouldn't even exist.

As for 'wrong' cultural practises, I think the Faroe whale grind is one worth mentioning. (Click here for a link to a BusinessInsider article)
To them this is normal, to me it's insane. So yeah, where to draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not?

 

[Leander]

Maybe we could say that some cultures are more advanced than others or some less developed. Maybe those words are less offensive?

Yes. The change of words actually makes a big difference. Now you're not pointing a dooming finger, but simply stating the difference in development. It sounds a lot more respectful.

Where I am living now, if you'd tell a shepherd that he's an idiot and doing it all wrong, he would kill you and dump you off a cliff. But respectfully suggesting that there are also other ways to accomplish the same goal opens discussion.

 

[cdavis]

I have great empathy for the shepherd; I know how he feels

 

[Woohoo]

Where I am living now, if you'd tell a shepherd that he's an idiot and doing it all wrong, he would kill you and dump you off a cliff.

Blimey, sounds like a very barbaric culture they got going on there! Most people in England would just laugh at you if you called them an idiot, but cold blooded murder! Are you suggesting that kind of behaviour is normal? Are you suggesting I should change my behaviour so as not to upset a sociopath? Tolerance 101.

I have great empathy for the shepherd; I know how he feels

Running for a ‘safe space’ one minute, coming out swinging the next. Like your style.

 

[Woohoo]

but the fact that we need laws to protect the animals says a lot about our true nature. If we were so kind and loving the term 'animal rights' wouldn't even exist.

Not being argumentative for the sake of it but you’ve got that completely round the wrong way. It’s pointless and juvenile to talk about a lovely fluffy world where nothing bad happens. In the real world the vast majority of people in the vast majority of cultures, don’t need laws to stop us causing unnecessary pain and suffering to animals. It comes naturally to us because of the people we are and the cultures we were raised in. There is nothing wrong with our ‘true nature’ when it comes to this subject at all.

Laws have been put in place because the true nature of the vast majority of people won’t tolerate the small minority behaving in such an abhorrent way. For you to try and spin it so that somehow we’re the bad guys for having laws that protect animals, while never for a second wanting to acknowledge the cruel atrocities committed by cultures without any laws protecting animals, just shows how agenda driven you are.

 

[catFishInMyHand]

In the real world the vast majority of people in the vast majority of cultures, don’t need laws to stop us causing unnecessary pain and suffering to animals.

The vast majority of people DO cause unnecessary pain and suffering to animals, we are completely capable of humanly raising and killing animals, but in the name of a cheap meal, we normally don't. Most people just ignore it, while some pathetically attempt to hide behind the juvenile argument of "but other people do worse things to animals", and flail around trying desperately to convince people that their actions aren't deplorable simply because other people are doing it too. Justifying inhumane treatment of animals is undeniably a moral low ground, your best bet if you want to shield yourself from this obvious fact is to only discuss this with other people who hold your own horribly contorted "views", attempting to use reason in a discussion where all sides are presented will only lead you to become increasingly uncertain in your stance, and hopefully make your chicken nuggets and steaks a little less delicious.

 

[Woohoo]

The vast majority of people DO cause unnecessary pain and suffering to animals, we are completely capable of humanly raising and killing animals, but in the name of a cheap meal, we normally don't.

I have some good news and bad news for you. The good news is that here in the UK the number of Vegans has quadrupled in the last 5 years. Unfortunately the bad news is that it’s quadrupled to a pathetic 1.16% of the population.

You seem very angry and you seem very angry with me personally. The problem is, people that think like me make up somewhere between 90 and 99% of the worlds population. So basically you’re pretty much angry with the entire human species. But hey, if blaming me for mankind makes you feel better, I’m happy to help.

Ironically, by being in such a tiny fringe group of people with feelings as extreme as yours, denouncing the actions of practically all of mankind, you’re actually far less likely to ever do anything that will lead to change or improvement. By wanting to live in a lovely, fluffy world, instead of accepting and dealing with reality, nobody will ever take you seriously

while some pathetically attempt to hide behind the juvenile argument of "but other people do worse things to animals"

I’m not hiding from anything and I can prove how silly that argument is by simply turning it around. Would you not be just as guilty of refusing to acknowledge and discuss atrocious animal cruelty in China, simply because “we do bad things as well”? I’m capable of discussing both as a matter of fact. You aren’t.

flail around trying desperately to convince people that their actions aren't deplorable simply because other people are doing it too.

I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything. I simply state facts and neither you or any other residents of fluffy world has even attempted to prove them wrong. Burning and boiling a dog alive is hideously and undisputedly worse than a one day old chick being killed in less than a second in a grinder. That is a scientifically proven fact. For anything you say to have the tiniest bit of credibility, you would need to start by accepting that fact or proving it wrong.

 

[catFishInMyHand]

I have some good news and bad news for you. The good news is that here in the UK the number of Vegans has quadrupled in the last 5 years. Unfortunately the bad news is that it’s quadrupled to a pathetic 1.16% of the population.

I do not see a moral line drawn at veganism, I see a moral line drawn at the humane treatment of animals.

You seem very angry and you seem very angry with me personally. The problem is, people that think like me make up somewhere between 90 and 99% of the worlds population. So basically you’re pretty much angry with the entire human species. But hey, if blaming me for mankind makes you feel better, I’m happy to help.

I don't see a large number of people doing horrific things as justification for individuals doing horrible things. My moral compass is based on my own personal actions, that is all I can control. I am angry with you, in the same way that most people are angry when a child uploads a video of himself throwing a cat at the wall until it stops moving. I am not only at you, I am also angry at the society that has lead you to believe that your actions are moral acceptable (you said yourself that you do nothing evil).

Ironically, by being in such a tiny fringe group of people with feelings as extreme as yours, denouncing the actions of practically all of mankind, you’re actually far less likely to ever do anything that will lead to change or improvement. By wanting to live in a lovely, fluffy world, instead of accepting and dealing with reality, nobody will ever take you seriously

Again, my moral compass is set based on my actions, I do not see other people as being able to justify my behavior.

I’m not hiding from anything and I can prove how silly that argument is by simply turning it around. Would you not be just as guilty of refusing to acknowledge and discuss atrocious animal cruelty in China, simply because “we do bad things as well”? I’m capable of discussing both as a matter of fact. You aren’t.

I do not know what is more morally deplorable, raising an animal their whole life in a tiny cage, pumped full of hormones, infected, sometimes starving to death, or capturing a wild animal and cruely beating it to death. If however, we take your stance that one is worse than the other, it still absolutely does not make the other morally acceptable. A way to see this clearly is this, if someone kidnaps a kid and rips off all the fingers on their left hand and sets them free, their actions are not morally acceptable because someone else kidnapped a kid and ripped off all the fingers off both hands. One does not justify the other. I know you can see this. Furthermore, if a million people rip off the fingers of kids, it does not make it ok for any one of them to do this, it is still morally deplorable. Your argument of "lots of people do it, so it is ok" is absolute garbage, and I also believe that you know this.

I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything. I simply state facts and neither you or any other residents of fluffy world has even attempted to prove them wrong. Burning and boiling a dog alive is hideously and undisputedly worse than a one day old chick being killed in less than a second in a grinder. That is a scientifically proven fact. For anything you say to have the tiniest bit of credibility, you would need to start by accepting that fact or proving it wrong.

You have repeatedly tried to prove that your actions are "not evil", you have done this by saying lots of people do it, and that other people do worse things, amongst other extremely flimsy arguments. While it is true, that some animals are treated worse than others, the divide is not always between cultures, or east and west like you seem to want to cling. Furthermore, as I previously explained very clearly, even if there are other people who treat animals worse than you(and other typical western factory farm consumers), it does not absolve you of guilt.

Several years ago, I was very similar to you, trying desperately to convince people who do not use factory farms that it absolutely morally acceptable, it would often get me angry, I would feel my temperature rise, I wanted very much to be morally justified in my inhumane addiction. Eventually I found that it was a dead end, I could have one or the other, I could have juicy steaks on demand from restaurants, and choose whatever meat I wanted from supermarkets, or I could be at peace with the morality of my decisions, but I could not have both. I am confident that you also see this, the struggle that you are having is one of addiction than anything else. I know it is hard to give up things you like, but in the end it will make you stronger and increase your willpower in other areas of your life. I know you do not want to hear this, and you want so desperately to cling to your claim that treating animals horrifically is ok because other people do worse things or whatever, but this is not about you and other people, this is about you and the animals that you interact with via your financial decisions.

 

[popgun pete]

The much and probably deservedly maligned full-face snorkel dive mask may be getting a new lease on life as it may help in supplying protective breathing gear for hard pressed medical workers by providing a reusable mask that completely shields the face.

Ocean Reef adaptor for COVID-19 protective mask – Scuba Diver Mag

www.scubadivermag.com

Here are modified dive masks already in action.

 

[Woohoo]

I am angry with you, in the same way that most people are angry when a child uploads a video of himself throwing a cat at the wall until it stops moving.

way to see this clearly is this, if someone kidnaps a kid and rips off all the fingers on their left hand and sets them free, their actions are not morally acceptable because someone else kidnapped a kid and ripped off all the fingers off both hands.

Holy moly!! Throwing cats against the wall until they’re dead and ripping fingers off kidnapped kids?? Come back Leander all is forgiven!

Your argument of "lots of people do it, so it is ok" is absolute garbage, and I also believe that you know this.

You have repeatedly tried to prove that your actions are "not evil", you have done this by saying lots of people do it, and that other people do worse things, amongst other extremely flimsy arguments.

you want so desperately to cling to your claim that treating animals horrifically is ok because other people do worse things or whatever.

You’ve said that so many times and it’s not the slightest bit true. I do the things I do because I choose to and because I’m happy doing them. I can look myself in the mirror at night and sleep well. I’m not a sheep. I make my own decisions.

I simply point out the fact that everybody else agrees with me, to try and help you understand how extreme and fringe your beliefs are. Every time you walk in to a shop, step on a plane, walk through a park, sit in the cinema etc, it’s you who are the odd one out, it’s you who thinks differently to everybody else. Yet you have the audacity to suggest I’m immoral and deplorable for having beliefs that almost everybody else on the planet has. You can’t see how that makes you seem a little unstable?

As much as I don’t mind wasting my time, going round in circles, effectively talking to myself, I do have to draw the line somewhere. We will never having anything remotely worth saying to each other so may as well quit while we’re behind.

 

[Ramon Fernandez]

Interesting news from 2015 by the Italian RAI scientific program Leonardo
Spanish subtitles Original Italian language
Original source RAI italiana ContentItem-5e3275ba-475c-4cf4-b402-1e27dc47565b.html



Interesante notica del 2015 por RAI italiana programa científico Leonardo
subtítulos español Idioma original italiano
Fuente original RAI italian ContentItem-5e3275ba-475c-4cf4-b402-1e27dc47565b.html

 

[Leander]

Ok, here in Greece the lockdown will be extended by a lot, probably all of April, perhaps some of May...

And I'm already bored out of my skull!

I started doing pullups just to kill the time (and because when I'm bored I eat too much), potted 38 chili seedlings so I can watch them grow (no tv), and did the long overdue maintenance of the spearing gear. The knives and the speartip now almost got a mirror finish!

I wonder, how are you spending this glorious corona-lockdown?