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Euro vs. American???

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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donmoore

donmoore

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Aug 19, 2002
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Murat,
The tip staying put on the front wing gun to allow you to move the rear to aim makes sense in no current. But when you stick a front wing gun out in current, it’s a different story! Where I dive, I would say that 85% of the time the current is enough to make diving with a front wing gun miserable.

My dive buddy is into wing guns, but guess what happens when we go diving? He usually wants to use one of my guns that don’t have wings! What’s the current like Cyprus?
don
 
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Alison

Alison

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Mar 6, 2004
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Originally posted by Murat
by the way welcome back ivan, desperatelly waiting your site's english version...
Me too the old english site was the best spearo site I ever saw :D
Bring it back Ivan PLEASE
 
Wishbone

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Hey guys,

This is off topic, but thanks! There are 2 major problems with the site:
1. The "built-in" engine doesn't support a bilingual version of the site - this left us with two options - keep it either in english or in Bulgarian. And since it is the ONLY source in bulgarian, visual, written, paper, virtual or whatsoever, we have desided not to deprive the Bulgarians from it.
2. Lack of time - the translation of all the stuff was a bitc*! I am a full time legal advisor to the Air Traffic Authority, so it became a bit impossible.

But I'd think about it again. That is if you two are not the only ones reading itq of course! :)

On the subject nowq Don: I don't think that Master America aims for the Blue Water market... I don't really think it can even compare to the BW guns. I think the O.ME.R's idea is to provide the reef shooters around the world with wooden alternative and see whether there would be any real advantagesq compared to the carbon, fiberglass, etc. And if possible, to diversify the market by creating a "wooden" segment of the Euro guns one.

Mark, correct me if i am wrong here, but I think that's the marketing idea...
 
Mark Laboccetta

Mark Laboccetta

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Aug 16, 2003
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"the proof is in the pudding"

Sorry to dump on your product, but if we are going to be honest, here are some other things I either dislike or don’t understand.

Hi Don and everyone else, I guess I'll be slacking for a little while at work again today,chapter two: :D

First I commend you for your frankness and the fact that you are willing to speculate on most everything about this gun. Second, let's not turn this into an Omer vs Aimrite shitting contest, it would serve no useful purpose. I have known Rick Bettua since he started working with his friend Daryl and I started doing this when we used to dive together in North Carolina when he was stationed there in the Navy, and although we might differ on whose gun we believe is better (wonder why), we have a friendly competition relationship and I even supply him with the reels I designed and introduced into the market five years ago that you probably even have on one of your guns.

Spearguns are like women, some of us like blondes and some of us like bruntettes, some of us like tall skinny ones others like shorter ones with big boobs. What we all have in common is the same passion for spearguns just like the women we love. If you've only had one girlfriend all your life and are happy with it that's fine but it doesn't mean she's the best for all, I know plenty of guys who have had plenty and they can never make up their mind which one they like more until they fall in love and get married. Luckily with spearguns we can have as many as we want without committing the rest of our lives to thy faithful one.

Seven years ago when I was still in college and started a company in the US with my old man selling freediving equipment and spearguns a lot of people thought I was crazy and never thought I would make it and told me I should get myself together and go to graduate school. I never did and I'm happy I did what I did and I'm doing well now.

At the same time seven-eight years ago there were less than ten people in the US I knew about who actually had even tried a rear handle/rail/Euro style gun let alone an Omer. The term Euro is almost seen as derogative sometimes because some people want to try to make it American vs Euro or something, girls are girls, guns are guns, they're all the same-they serve a purpose-to kill a fish. The later was met with so much resistance within the small brotherhood and tribe of freedivers and spearfisherman across the country that networked with each other known as the freedivelist that we all started poking fun at each other, I think I'm the one that coined the label "tree trunks" to the big mid handle monsters, in turn many of them called ours "pea shooters". It was all fun and games and a time of exciting growth and a synergy between different schools of thought. Today some of those companies are making their own version of a "pea shooter"rail guns euro guns whatever you want to call it, others are selling special shafts for "pea shooters", and others who only produced pea shooters are going into their own version of tree trunks, if you think about it you can name these three companies.

What we have to remember is that without ever trying innovation and new ideas and by refuting different concepts without even having tried them you are selling yourself short since you can't prove anything you are saying. Had Rick never made his Hybrid version speargun and stuck with ole' faithful he would have never known what could have been, just like I never knew we would be selling thousands of nice aluminum reels and Omer guns and hundreds of very expensive carbon fiber fins that people thought we were crazy for selling.

I want people who read this to realize that the point of this whole discussion for me is not the profitability or to try to plug a product like the Master America that is undergoing development.
I enjoy and have always been fascinated by the siple physics behind a speargun. We have had so many orders and irate customers who want this gun but can't get it for the simple reason that we are not going to introduce it in the US market until a TEAK VERSION is available like the prototypes we've been testing. I think it is the best wood for use in spearguns in general. I have used this gun and am so impressed with it that I'm not going to put it on the market until I think it's perfect because it deserves no less.

It has one small bug to fix with the line release and also with the way the double loop of shooting line wraps which will simply be taken care of with a pin.

This class of spearguns of $500+ dollars represents a relatively small market and I could spend much more time pursuing the sales of the more economical versions of Omer guns which are more of the bread and butter of this company along with the other products but I enjoy explaining the rationale behind this gun since I have tried it and its physics are sound. This style of gun, the Master, with it's barrel shaped the way it is has been unchanged since the master was first made in 1992-3, over ten years and thousands of them in circulation is already proven, and you should at least ask a diver who owns one or who has one of the old ones, plenty of them on this forum I bet, how it tracks and how well they're balanced.

The first models for five years were produced with a polyurethane foam coat over a round aluminum barrel, the second generation in carbon fiber, and today ultimately in wood for the rigors of more heavy duty use with more power while still being balanced like other Omer guns. To produce it they are still using hi-tech machinery like 3 DIMENSIONAL CAD machines and architects for the design and outsourcing the actual production to high end professional furniture producers who are experts at the lamination/milling and routing process to produce wooden objects using CNC machines.

What other speargun manufacturers have gone through all this trouble that you know of to make a speargun?

This is expensive tooling but ultimately the product is really well made and well done and I don't think the largest speargun manufacturer in the WORLD, Omer, would spend this much time and effort and money in a product they take a lot of pride in if they weren't sure what the hell they were doing. The Master America is not a product that Omer has a high demand for or a high turnover and its not very profitable either considering the time and the outsourcing costs of the wood production that is required.

The one thing I do like is the adjustable ballast. The rest of the gun though looks like it was made by a company who doesn’t really understand American guns and ocean environment and thinks we will get excited by lovely finish and laments that serve no real function.

I would like to go through your post and go point by point and show you where I am sure you are wrong but it seems you've already made up your mind.

The one point you are 100% correct on is that after a certain length this design looses maneuverability to a mid handle design, and that is in guns over 55"/115cm. In a longer gun like a 130cm (65" mid-handle which is equal to 130cm of band stretch) a mid-handle is a better solution. This 115cm is a 55" gun. You shouldn't have to use two hands on any 55" gun unless it's a machine gun:duh

When the teak prototype becomes a reality and you have someone like yourself who has had one type and then tries this one then it will be fair to judge. Right now you are just speculating and that is perfectly fine and even appreciated.

Mark

"you don't judge a book by its cover"
 
Murat

Murat

Promethian
Jun 21, 2002
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Originally posted by donmoore
Murat,
The tip staying put on the front wing gun to allow you to move the rear to aim makes sense in no current. But when you stick a front wing gun out in current, it’s a different story! Where I dive, I would say that 85% of the time the current is enough to make diving with front wing gun miserable.

My dive buddy is into wing guns, but guess what happens when we go diving? He usually wants to use one of my guns that don’t have wings! What’s the current like Cyprus?
don

In summer,

The EAST side, where i stay the current is absoulutely ZERO. Sea is like a swimming pool. Northern sea is generally 0.5 meter maximum.
 
Murat

Murat

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Jun 21, 2002
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Mark,

What is the difference between ordinar Master America and your concept one?? Is it only beefed up stock? In what band/shaft config does your concept and ordinary Master America gives optimum performance? I don't mind lead balance change for different shafts and bands too much just want to know the config that barell and guns are made for in real...
 
S

SpearoPimp

New Member
Jun 9, 2004
107
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donmoore:

What's that you were saying about having to load the 2 18 mm or 20 mm bands at the same time. Why can't you load them one at time on the euro guns? Or can you? And I just misunderstood. I recently bought an Omer (lovin it). But have only used it with one band. I want to try two bands tho.
 
donmoore

donmoore

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Aug 19, 2002
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SpearoPimp,
Maybe I’m not understanding it, but I was under the impression that the hinged metal wishbone with the bronze balls would require both bands be pulled together, like on an American gun. I thought it was made for an American style shaft that either has shark fins or cut outs that the wishbone fits in. If I’m wrong I apologize for this. I believe the gun made for the circle American style bands would definitely need both rubber sides pulled at the same time.

19 mm is ¾ inches. 18mm is slightly less, but still quite a bit more than 5/8”, and 20mm is more than ¾”. Have you ever loaded a gun with a ¾” American style band on it? Even if you have the strength you have to be real careful not to hurt yourself from the pressure of the butt. Multiple 9/16” or 5/8” bands are more practical to load than one single huge band.

My main concern is the perceived lack of maneuverability of the gun, which I feel, will be a problem in reef diving as well as blue water. It will be interesting to hear Murat’s opinion when he puts wings on one of euro guns.

Does anyone know any freedivers that actually like diving with a winged gun? Some use them in bluewater hunting, because it’s the only way they can control the recoil on their style of gun when its loaded with several bands; but I would think most if they didn’t have to, would not.

Like I said, my dive buddy thinks he likes front wing guns, but when we go, he usually wants to borrow one from me without wings. He is currently building his own gun that he is making shorter for the rigs. He is definitely putting wings on it although he uncertain if he will have a front wing or not. What ever he comes up with he better use it because this borrowing thing is getting old. ;)
don
 
Mark Laboccetta

Mark Laboccetta

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Supporter
Aug 16, 2003
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Trying to turn the whole gun is harder and if you try to do that faster, the bands usually start to vibrate and scare everything around... I have this problem with both my Beuchat Arka (90cm, 18mm bands, 5 mm shaft) and

Hi Ivan, one reason for the Master design is to shield the bands from water flow and vibrations during movement thus helping (not preventing completely) in this respect.

So it's easier to push (or pull) the handle to the direction opposite to the one you want the tip to point at. Supported by the water, the gun will turn around it's point of equlibrium (?).

I agree also with this Ivan.

I will gonna find out soon... Little winfs on the wood euros keeps the gun steady on the water and absorb "small" recoil of the light shaft and single band. That way you have real "no recoil" gun.

Murat, you are right, its the point of this design, it's not a full large integrated wing design like a big blue water gun that Don could be thinking of, just a smaller version of the same.

The tip staying put on the front wing gun to allow you to move the rear to aim makes sense in no current. But when you stick a front wing gun out in current, it’s a different story! Where I dive, I would say that 85% of the time the current is enough to make diving with a front wing gun miserable.

Don, I dive in lot's of current too in North Carolina, that doesn't make a difference-the profile is not as big as you think. Better yet, I would much rather have a much more stable muzzle in heavy current aiming at a mooving fish than one that is hard to keep stable.

On the subject nowq Don: I don't think that Master America aims for the Blue Water market... I don't really think it can even compare to the BW guns. I think the O.ME.R's idea is to provide the reef shooters around the world with wooden alternative and see whether there would be any real advantagesq compared to the carbon, fiberglass, etc. And if possible, to diversify the market by creating a "wooden" segment of the Euro guns one.

That is a very astute observation Ivan and right on cue. A wooden gun is a beautiful thing, especially one that shoots strait.

What is the difference between ordinar Master America and your concept one?? Is it only beefed up stock? In what band/shaft config does your concept and ordinary Master America gives optimum performance?

The difference between this prototype gun and the one they are producing in Europe is that ours is made in Teak, the other in Douglas fur. Nothing else, mechanical drawings are the same to the millimeter (less than 1/16":D ). Teak holds up better to abuse, requires less care like varnishing, and is slightly heavier which is ideal for the use of more powerful bands, bigger shafts, and bigger fish. I personally don't like the current version of the Master America in Douglas fur as much, it won't cut it for me and I think some of our customers. Mainly has to do with the differences in our conditions and how much more we abuse our gear.

Maybe I’m not understanding it, but I was under the impression that the hinged metal wishbone with the bronze balls would require both bands be pulled together, like on an American gun.

I don't understand what you mean? These wishbones in the picture were designed for three reasons:

1.people who tie their own bands so they can simply shorten their rubbers and retie them
2.who hate soft wishbones that eventually all break and at times during the worst possible time.
3. so that on a wooden gun like the Master America where the loop circular band is pulling at an angle, it would prevent the plastic screw in couplings uses in standard screw in wishbones to scract the barrel since they are pulling at an angle as opposed to strait when the wishbone couplings never come in contact with the barrel.

All these little things are just as I said earlier, ideas and concepts that some divers might appreicate where as other divers might not care. It doesn't necessarily mean they will make their counterparts obsolete or replace any time soon.

Have a good weekend everyone,

Mark @ Technosport
 
S

Screen Name

New Member
Jul 10, 2004
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Master America.....

Hey there, I am a new member and proud owner of a Master America.........used it for the first time yesterday. :D

Saw some of the "speculation" that occurred on this thread.......don't have a lot of time to elaborate, but I can tell you this:

The gun works great. Both myself and another more accomplished freediver used it, with very good results. It handled great in the water, and hit the fish very well. It cured any second thoughts I had on this gun. Myself and the other diver have used most of the guns mentioned in this thread, and while they all worked well, I guarantee you that my new Master America has nothing to be ashamed of.

One other observation........if euro guns did not have a place, why is aimrite making one? My opinion is that they both have their place.

Anyways, not trying to start any arguments, just trying to add a perspective (and defend my new gun a little :D)
 
Wishbone

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Hey Screen Name! :)

I guess you meant my post? I didn't mean that Euro guns didn't have a place. What I had in mind is that the Master America is a hybrid. It actually is more or less a Euro gun with a wooden barrel. In this regards the MAmerica is a new additiont to the poor "hybrid sector" - let's call it that way. As long as it embraces the good properties of each of the "pure" (Euro and BlueWater) types, I am two thumbs up! However the opposite is also possible - the gun to get only the disadvantages of the two types. Judging by your post, that is not the case with MAmerica, which is great!
I may have generalized the situation a bit by saying that MAmerica "creates" this hybrid gun market segment. This is not true since other companies have tried that before. O.ME.R however has the marketing capabilities to really do that and establish the hybrid gun as a strong addition to the spearos' gear bag.
It's a bit funny, but this hybrid gun kicks me "back to the nature". My first gun 20 years ago was a "hybrid" made by hand by my father some 20 years before I started diving...

Ivan
 
Wishbone

Wishbone

Paragraph aquanaut
Jan 13, 2002
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Hm...Hybrids..
Did I come up with a generic name for this type of spearguns or I heard it somewhere?
 
shaneshac

shaneshac

FIN TRASHER
Oct 8, 2002
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We are seeing all spearguns evolving.

Some evolve for the better some for the worse. Some just change without really improving or losing performance.

"Hybrid Guns" are taking the best of Euro and American and trying to combine them to get the best possible features.

Eventually those that work will be refined and will become purebreds others will just stay as crude mongrels.
 
W

Wiley Sea

New Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Master America

This is my first time posting to this forum, but I've got a little experience with the topic so here is my opinion, and its worth exactly what you paid for it. I've been diving the west coast of Florida for over thirty years. I've got three Riffe's and two Wong guns, and all of them are exceptional quality and fun to shoot. I've enjoyed all of them. My favorite of the guns is a 50" mid-handle hybrid Wong gun. It's maneuverable, well crafted and a joy to shoot. My problem is that I have a hard time consistently hitting what I'm shooting at with a mid-handle gun. I guess its from years of shooting a Rear handle Biller and Riffe's. I know this is just me, but it has had an effect on the amount of fish I have been getting over the past couple of years. Having started with and shot for so many years with a rear handle, there is just nothing instinctive to me in shooting a mid-handle. My two teamates on my freediving team switched to Omer guns about three years ago, and the results were instantly noticeable. They are two of the best freedivers on the west coast and they no longer use their old guns for anything. I bought a rear handle euro gun (Omer), but had trouble seeing past the muzzle. Again, I had trouble hitting what I was aiming at. I was beginning to write this all off to old age, when I went diving this spring with Paul Jones, who had the first Master America available in Florida. I used it for the day, and I have to tell you this gun gave me everything I was looking for. One is the initial good looks of the gun, which I find are exceptional and unique. Two, the open muzzle gives me a much better instinctive feel for shooting fish. To me a great improvement over a closed muzzle. Third, its a 100 cm gun, so it has the slot built in for an additional band if I want to power up, but for my shooting on the west coast, I don't see needing it. Fourth, the gun is perfectly balanced in the water. I bent the initial shaft that was in the gun, and my spare was a shorter shaft. To get the same feel as before, I inserted one of the lead weights in the muzzle of the gun. Fifth, I find the gun extremely maneuverable and great for shooting snappers and close in fish. Also, and most importantly it hits where I instinctively think it should. Another benefit for me, is that the gun is so perfectly balanced in the water, that thumbshooting under a ledge is much easier to do, because there is no downward torque on the muzzle and consequently on your thumb......Just my two cents worth on what I think is going to be a very successful gun in the US
 
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donmoore

donmoore

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Aug 19, 2002
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Well it looks like some of my speculation was wrong. I’m glad the gun is working well for you guys and it is bringing home fish.
don
:cool:
 
Mark Laboccetta

Mark Laboccetta

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Aug 16, 2003
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Don, that's an admirable trait, not many of us like to say we were wrong unles it's to our wives:)

This morning I went diving with a friend of mine and we got some really nice ones, I shot an 86 pounder and Mike had a 68lb amberjack.

A good excuse to put the new gun to good use. I had a reel my friend was using a float and float line.
 
Mark Laboccetta

Mark Laboccetta

Supporter
Supporter
Aug 16, 2003
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the other AJ, compliments of Mike Stallings

It was a beautiful morning and it made mine and Mike's Day, we were back at the dock by noon. When I shot mine I thought he'd go over 100 but a nice one none the less. We got some other nice fish this week, if I get a chance I'll post some picts later.

Mark
 
miles

miles

BORN WILD!!!
Supporter
Jun 13, 2003
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Nice fish Mark!!!!

Regards
miles
 
shaneshac

shaneshac

FIN TRASHER
Oct 8, 2002
1,874
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Very Very Very Nice fish mark.

Congratulations.

NOw comes your dilemma. Do you say that the fish was caught because you were using omer or because you are a great spearo? ;)

I know what i would choose!! :D

Take care

PS Remember about those shafts
 
Murat

Murat

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Jun 21, 2002
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Hybrid

Well done Mark, Its indian not the arrow:D

here is my hybrid
 
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