Euro vs. American???

[GilbertG.]

There he is again… The unfathomable Pescadore sweeps in to save the day at the last minute! Trying to win everyone over and stepping on other peoples' toes in the process. He always gets the last word in… with authority mind you.

You're quite a professional peskydor. I've been a quiet fan of the deeper blue hunting forums, not even bothering to register, just enjoying the discussions and the diverse opinions on an occasional lunch break. That is, until I run across a few of your posts. Let's put it this way, your swagger and disrespect to other members was enough to make me drop my ham sandwich, register and submit my very first post aimed squarely towards you. I'd expect a more a scientific approach, not to mention a bit more tact, from a retired physicist. With all your hunting experience and wealth of practical spearfishing knowledge, I'd expect you to humbly share it with the rest of the forum members. But you've chosen to piss people off with the arrogance and pomp you so exhibit in your writing. Your karma is already going by the wayside. It wouldn't be wise to prejudge you or disrespect you, or anyone else for that matter, based on your writings alone. I'm trying not to. I'm sure the majority of the people who've read your posts already have. But like most people, you probably have some redeeming qualities that we can all learn to like and appreciate. At the moment, people on the forum don't like you. Even though they don't even know you. But maybe its best that it remains that way. Remember, this is a public forum with public discussions but people are hiding behind aliases. This is both good and bad. Good because people are allowed to freely speak while maintaining anonymity and security. Bad because it can turn into unnecessary personal attacks. You've just experience one. Add that to your long list of accomplishments along with discovering the internet.

In response to "nonsense". You managed to call Mark Labocetta an idiot without actually doing so. You've also managed to disregard what speargun designers/engineers/architects/ballistics experts/physicists know to be proven fact. I'll volunteer and draw up the "free-body-diagram" (as we call it in the engineering world) of what Mark Labocetta was trying to explain about recoil and handle offsetts. I'll post this when I get the chance. It's part of what I do for a living.

Gene Higa, my condolences to your family. May your humble legacy live on. Aloha.

Peskydor, a bit of advice from an inexperienced 32-year-old, just chill out and you won't get so many nasty replies.

 

[peskydor]

Hmmm,
two first time ever posts from Florida praising the 'America' gun. Interesting

About those shark fins: they are installed to make it easier to load guns which have a grooved barrel. The fins were cribbed from the original Potts/Prodanovich 'rudder' which, unlike the sharkfin, DOES have a PURPOSE. The rudder holds three wishbones for one thing. More importantly, it is a hydrodynamic foil which compensates for shaft drop due to muzzle lift. A gun equipped with this device, a shaft with rudder, does not need 'wings' or ballast, or anything unless the power level is ridiculous., like five bands. A rudder equipped shaft will fly 'straight as an arrow every time. I should note that very small guns with light power do not need a rudder and the notches are adequate.

Yes, the addict (mid handle) gun may be difficult to aim accurately without practice. With the correct technique they are extremely accurate.

I can't respond to all this stuff from Mark, impossible. I'll try a small piece at a time. He has stated that recoil of a big USA gun is greater than a Euro gun and that this causes a loss of energy, disproportionate in nature and results in loss of accuracy or power, or whatever, of the USA built gun. This is nonsense.

Kinetic energy is the product of mass X velocity squared. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, one would expect quite a bit of energy to be lost in the gun when the shaft is fired. This belief is totally bogus. There is no measurable energy loss because the gun does not generate any rearward velocity. The force (not energy) is countered by the mass of the gun and the diver. Big guns do not react to this force by producing rearward motion simply because the mass of the gun and diver restrain such movement. A buoyant wood gun has considerable mass nontheless, and that is the only thing that counts. If the force of recoil cannot move the diver or gun there is NO VELOCITY, and the equation for the opposite reaction (recoil energy) is not satisfied. There is NO loss of energy due to recoil except for that generated in tiny movements of the hand or arm, nothing at all to speak of.

If you, Mark, ever tried one of my wishbones you would throw those grotesque Euro steel wires away. Mine are made from 19 X 1 stainless cable, 3/32 dia. The ends are lead balls made by immersing the cable ends in solder. These wishbones will last for 5-10 years and don't care how much they are flexed or how much force is applied to them. Note that they may pinch on the 'shark fins sharp edges but they will work nontheless.

 

[peskydor]

Gilbert,
these boards can get out of control rather quickly. I feel like I have every finger in the dike.

Who the heck are you, anyway??

Notice that I no longer refer to 'American' guns. I will be calling them 'USA'. I'm on to you people.

 

[Alison]

Just a simple question, I dont want to upset anyone so please dont have a go at me. But is this " peskydor" a joke character someones dreamed up? Because April 1st was a while back
Any way, if you are, youve had me in fits the last few days Cheers

 

[divefan]

I think pesky knows what he's talking about. He sounds very knowledgeable. I am enjoying his posts. He lives right near Omer/Technosport so I wonder if it's not Mark L. in disguise????

 

[peskydor]

Divefan, most of my critics represent commercial interests. I used to work for an agency that investigated industrial espionage so, even though retired, I maintain an interest in foreign activity. For example, the Italian government has petitioned (strong armed) the European Union to ban American made products which have Italian sounding names. For example, cheeses can no longer be sold in Europe as Parmasan or Provolone, if made in America. They must be made in Italy, only. Yet, at the same time, here we have an Italian company lifting the name of our beloved country, America, to sell their 'cheesy' products here in the USA. That takes brass balls, my friend. It gets worse. Back in Euroland, the psychologists who cook up this stuff and work for the advertising department, know that this 'America' gun will now become confused in the eye of the public whenever the term 'American' gun is discussed by divers.

 

[anton]

Hey peskydor,
It gets worse than that. They have guys like Mark in the states with names that even sound European! They probably live in places like Naples, Florida as well.

Seriously, like we Americans don't try to strong arm our products (Like genetically enhanced soy or meat products) in just about every every Euro market we can despite the markets there not wanting them???? I think it can be called looking out for your countries interests and we can all discuss whether its right or wrong until we are blue in the face. (On a side note, even in Italy, Parmesan may only be called parmesan and produced in certain areas-the Italians have the same if not greater concerns about the dutch making cheese with the same name, a fact not mentioned in your comments)

I think we digress though from the original thread which is explaining the difference between "Euro" and "American" guns to those that wish to know. Perhaps we should stay with that simple topic

 

[Wishbone]

Peskydor,

I'd recommend a bit more research before making "educated" posts and a bit more tolerance...

Now Anton undertook the obviously hard quest to explain you one thing or two, that probably weren't mentioned in the cheap newspaper you got all those ideas from... I'd try to add some as a citizen of a country that is not even in the EU, but will be in 2007 and is currently involved in the accession process.
Each of the member-countries has passed through negotiations which include also registration of names of products, which are considered strictly national, sometimes even regional within the country itself.
Per example, you can't sell Champagne under the name Champagne if it is not produced in Champagne, France.
Another a bit different example - Milka cannot sell their chocolates made in Bulgaria with a text on the package saying "Alpine milk chocolate" because the milk doesn't come from the Alps.
And futhermore: I bet you don't know that the word "yoghurt" is actually an old Bulgarian word for milk left to turn sour while carried in a sack on the saddle of the horse. It's our national product, and we are the only ones who can produce the real stuff so we managed to defend our position before the EU. What you eat there has nothing to do with the real yoghurt, so it's actually deceiving to the customer. You cannot produce real yoghurt, since the milk ferments only after applying a certain bacteria that lives only in Bulgaria and mutates if exported.
I can add also a huge line of products.... Like the Greek "Ouzo". Bulgaria cannot produce Ouzo even though we have a very similar drink called Mastika (the French have their Pastis). And it's gotta be that way in order to protect the customer's interest. And also the ones of the local producers.
Now if you can give me one single reason why this speargun should be considered a "national product" I'd most probably agree... But if you try to do that, the Polynesians would cut your smart ba**s and leave the rest to the Eskimos and the Aleuts... That's if your own native Indians don't get you first. Hell, some prehystorical neanderthal may even beat you up with the rock tip of his primitive spear because he'd consinder the whole thing his idea.

I can't see any argument in your post besides some twisted up patriotism, so I presume you were forced into retirement after your industrial espionage company went out of business due to the incompetence of its staff...

Sorry mate, but you got on me lawyer's toes too. There is a certain line between "commercial interests" and the law. And it's not that thin at all so you can cross it without noticing...

Not constructive at all! :naughty

By the way... Isnt's the correct Spanish spelling of your nick PESCADOR, industrial patriot?

Ivan
(a native Slavonic name, which you can consider native only before you realize that its roots stretch as far as the ancient Hebrew name Yokhanaan...)


comment by fuzz - maybe he was going for PESTADOR?

 

[GilbertG.]

Peskydor, you wrote:

" Kinetic energy is the product of mass X velocity squared. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, one would expect quite a bit of energy to be lost in the gun when the shaft is fired. This belief is totally bogus. There is no measurable energy loss because the gun does not generate any rearward velocity. The force (not energy) is countered by the mass of the gun and the diver. Big guns do not react to this force by producing rearward motion simply because the mass of the gun and diver restrain such movement. A buoyant wood gun has considerable mass nontheless, and that is the only thing that counts. If the force of recoil cannot move the diver or gun there is NO VELOCITY, and the equation for the opposite reaction (recoil energy) is not satisfied. There is NO loss of energy due to recoil except for that generated in tiny movements of the hand or arm, nothing at all to speak of. "

Common Peskydor, let's keep it honest and don't mislead the readers. Dear Deeper Blue Members, the fact of this matter is, no matter what type of gun you use, short guns, big guns, mid handle guns, rear handle guns, euro guns, whatever you want to call your gun, you cannot completely prevent wasted energy due to recoil. This is evidence by a strong kick back and a slight muzzle lift. Even a large powerful gun with lead packed into the stock will have a measureable amount of recoil. The rearward movement of the speargun, albeit slight (half an inch maybe?) occurs over a split second (wow that?s pretty fast to me!). Take that rearward velocity, square it, halve it, and multiply by the large mass of the speargun and voila, you have a measureable amount of kinetic energy being wasted by recoil. Measureable by the bruise on your chin or your broken nose. The bottom line is, the speargun, spearshaft, and diver work as a system to convert the potential energy stored in the power bands to kinetic energy in the flying spear. This system cannot be made 100% efficient in manipulating energy, nothing can. That?s a fact!

 

[Wishbone]

Gilbert,

Thanks for bringing the whole thing in the right tracks...
I apologize to the readers for getting carried away offtopic in the previous post...

Cheers!

 

[Murat]

Originally posted by GilbertG.
This system cannot be made 100% efficient in manipulating energy, nothing can. That?s a fact!

Good said, spearguns are not "perfect lossless" tools afterall. Wheather big or not there is always energy loss


Ivan i thought yogurt was our national food. We build them as same as the way you described

 

[Wishbone]

Yo Murat,

By "our", first I thought Cyprus, and I was going to say that you can't have a long enough ride on the island to get even a spoonfull of yoghurt!

With a risk to start an argument, it's ours, mate! We were the freeminded nomads riding with the wind from the plains of Mongolia to the Great river of Danube, crazy enough to carry around bags of milk for no obvious reason other than to invent the Yoghurt Allmighty! ... )))

Seriously now - yep - it's ours - always has been - ever since the time we lived on the other side of Asia it has been a Bulgarian word... But after falling for 500 years under the ruling of the Sultan of the Ottoman empire we might have taught you a trick or two!

Enjoy your sour milk and think of the ancient "V"ulgarian wisdom, oh, Murat of the Turks! Heheh!

By the way, spearguns do recoil, and anyone who hasn't felt that should probably try for Mister Olimpia!

Cheers!

 

[divefan]

It gets worse than that. They have guys like Mark in the states with names that even

Pesky and others,

This sounds reasonable to me in the context of your argument. However, I would imagine the rebuttal would be that the gun is targeting the US market so the name "Master America" is apropos and appropriate. Yes-No? Someone help me on this......

The rest of your points I will have to take your word for since I am not educated enough in this area to make a definitive judgment.

I must say that Anton, Gilbert G., and Wishbone seem to have some very good responses. Some very technical in nature (and over my head) that also seem to come from personal knowledge as well.

Having used many different types of spearguns myself (admittedly, I am not at all in the class of a person like Pesky, experience wise) IMHO I think that there is an inherent philosophical difference between what is commonly referred to as a Euro gun and what is defined as an American gun.

Riffe seems to exemplify the "American gun" and I would have to say that Omer would define the "Euro gun". Both seem to be the largest in their respective markets (not to say there is not spill over) and maintain the most following.

I do not believe that the Master America, while it's name may be misleading, is a departure from the Euro gun concept. The only similarity to the Riffe is the fact that it will be made of teak. But, this in itself does not define a Riffe (American) or an Omer (Eurogun). Totemsub has been making teak guns in Italy for a long time and is anything but an American gun in philosophy.

The difference IMO as probably many have stated before me is the type of game and fishing environment both of these style of guns were primarily designed for.

If, any of you shoot handguns you just have to go back to the very old argument that raged for years in the US about the difference between the .45 cal. and the 9 mm. I can remember this argument going on for decades with it's supporters and it's detractors. The faster and more accurate 9 mm used in Europe and the old fashioned heavy, short range, less accurate, but monster 45 cal. used in the US. The stopping power argument went on forever and was the fodder of every gun magazine in this country for as long as I can remember. Of course, everyone's argument was backed up by a multitude of charts, graphs, engineering studies, tests on dummies, etc., etc.

Hey, what about cars? Americans like oval racing, big brute horsepower, not maneuverable, but very fast, and drag racing. Europeans prefer road course racing, more sophisticated, less relying on brute strength, and more on accuracy and speed through the turns. Hmmm. Something is starting to sound familiar. Speed and accuracy (perhaps a 6.5 mm shaft and one power band) versus brute horsepower (3/8" shafts, multiple rubbers to launch them, and huge wood stocks to absorb the recoil).

The point is, maybe there is something deeper here. Maybe there is an inherent difference in the very psyche of the European and the American. Perhaps, we should not look to the differences in the guns we use but rather how to adapt the benefits of each and meld them into a better gun than we have now.

I am Interested in opinions of others.

Maybe Mark L from Technosport would venture a comment. He of all people has insight. An American with ties to both continents who markets a Eurogun in an American market.

 

[Murat]

Then, this for Bulgarian Friends

yumm yumm....

 

[Wishbone]

Hahaha!

This cracked me up, Murat! I even wanted to give you some Karma for it, but it said I should spread it around first!

What the heck!? Spread it like the Yoghurt!? Not again!

But on the other hand... Bon appetite, mate! You have only three years left enjoying the gift of Tangra. After that you'd have to come up with another name .... like...

The White Gold of Anadol
or
The (Not So) Turkish Delights
or
simply TYN (Thank You Neighbour?)

:t

 

[Murat]

rofl

this one was the "light" version:head

 

[peskydor]

Gilbert,, eg that if there is even a tiny energy loss in recoil then Mark's point is made that" USA style guns lose more energy in proportion to light weight European guns"? Therefore, one should buy an admittently high (felt) recoil Euro gun as opposed to one that has higher inertia, and lower recoil, like a big wood gun? I expected this kind of backpedaling and double talk and that is why I am hesitant to try to point out simple physical facts. Moreover, that guy in Bulgaria or whatever didn't even know the difference between felt recoil and energy loss. I repeat, recoil losses are insignificant. It is FELT recoil (force, not energy) that is important and Euro guns lose. There will be some in this crowd that will argue till the cows come home. They believe in the tooth fairy and other stuff and they are not able to evaluate and separate mythology from the physical world. That is why I hesitate to correct the junk that comes from commercial cliques and groupies. I provide a detailed explanation and it is countered with opinion and bar room blather.

There is a blizzard of propaganda coming out from the gun manufacturers claiming that their guns are better 'engineered'. Most of the engineering (if they even have an engineer) goes into production processes. As far as the claims made by their advertising people, even if Omer or Riffe had an engineer (much less a physicist) he would not have ANY say in the claims made by that company. Sales dept controls that.

Look at these claims made for in line propulsion versus offset propulsion. People like Omer will tell the customer that inline propulsion is more efficient use of vector forces while omitting important discrepancies of another kind.If Riffe thought about it he might point out that the Omer guns have offset propulsion due to the splayed wishbones. He would point out that close fitting wishbones achieve inline propulsion and more efficiency in the horizontal plane, and they do not vibrate. Checkmate, game set match and any cliche you choose. The real truth is that these differences are minor to a physicist or ballistician. He knows about them but may decide that design compromises are necessary. The real issue with weapons is how do they shoot and can you hit anything? In fact, both styles of crossbows, euro and USA, do fairly well. If one is diving 50 feet and shooting 10 pound fish under rocks I would consider an Allen gun or similar. This gun can be twisted and maneuvered without a butt end striking the wrist. If one is shooting yellowfin tuna in Hawaii, a loooong, wood gun would be my choice. This type of gun is lined up, tracked, and carfully aimed for a maximum shot.

Here is a freebie to rubber vibrators. STOP what you are doing. Do NOT attempt to track the fish. Just rotate in the opposite direction and let the fish come to you.

 

[divefan]

pesky,

Damm, you certainly sound like you know what you're talking about. I just wish I understood it. It is over my head mostly. I am not very good with the math.

Why would you think so many people are not getting your points? It all sounds logical. Don't give up just because people are not buying into it. I like reading them so keep it up. I like to learn new things and hear different points of view.

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

It’s amazing how an initial inquiry about the differences between speargun designs can digress into what is obviously a rebuttal where the professed underlying motive has more to do with politics and a twisted idea of patriotism with an obscure understanding of the same. As far as my posts on the topic at hand of speargun designs and the similarities and differences between mid-handle and rear-handle style guns, and what some people like myself believe can be a good compromise and a common ground with the innovative design of the Master America, I don’t need to offer any clarifications or justifications to any of these posts I made as I believe firmly in them. It’s not in my best interest to speculate on untested theories to see how other divers will react to it on public forums. It’s clear through many of the posts that there were many people who understood them clearly and who didn’t dispute them nor misunderstand them by taking what I said out of context to pursue a hidden agenda but who were open minded as to remain on track with the objective of the thread and the dialogue and the pursuit of improving and evolving two separate speargun designs to find a common ground with the merits of each all in the name of the pursuit of fun
And this is what all this is about, having fun, not attacking each other for our differences but apreciating our shared interests.

 

[shaneshac]

Originally posted by Mark Laboccetta

And this is what all this is about, having fun, not attacking each other for our differences but apreciating our shared interests.

Well said my friend

Its all about having a good day in the water