Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

[cdavis]

laminar, thanks for posting the info about "blood shift all the time" It helps explain something that happened to me. After returning from a week diving north of Vancouver, the first day of pool practice, I was immediately much farther along in "warm-up" than ever before. The difference was very noticeable the first few days, then slowly subsided over a few weeks. Some days I still see remnants of it.

So all I need to do to maintain "permanent blood-shift" is dive every day?? Sounds like a great idea!

Connor

 

[Fondueset]

I think it helps to stay cold.

 

[laminar]

I think it helps to stay cold.

That is why BC will become the freediving mecca of the world. Egypt and Bahamas? Too warm!

Watts. Currently my HR monitor is broken, so I have not been recording HR on these most recent swims.

Eric might have some data for his ocean swims. I don't think he's been using one, though.

Lately, I have not been doing STA/DYN because of pool issues. Will be doing some in the Bahamas in a couple of weeks and hope to have a HR monitor going by then.

In June, doing STA/DYN once a week, I was doing 1'20-1'30" STA and roughly a 1 minute swim without fins after 3-4 sessions. Furthest I covered was 78m after 1'28" on the bottom.

I expect I could do much further now since my stroke count for 25m has reduced from 4-5 to 2.5/3 (all without neck weights or a suit) and my training/technique has been improving in other areas.

We'll see how this translates into depth and distance at the Blue Hole.

Pete

 

[laminar]

Laminar, when you say exhaled and went , do you mean a full exhale? To train up to your level is it advisable to start with a partial breath and decrease until full exhale or completely exhale and work from there?

Thanks!

I exhaled passively. So I didn't force any more air out beyond simply relaxing the diaphragm and letting the air go out.

This volume is probably closer to actual FRC, which is necessary for getting the right buoyancy for my body weight/composition in a shallow pool. I don't use weights or a suit.

In the ocean, I dive with slightly more air and let the volume vary to match the depth (for buoyancy purposely).

I would always start with a relaxed exhale and slight inhale and go from there.

You don't need a full forceful exhale to reap the benefits of FRC in terms of chest flexibility either.

Pete

 

[laminar]

Pete have you and Eric been using a heart rate monitor during your FRC training? And if so what were the results? My buddy and i have done a bit of FRC pool and ocean training. We do the break point statics followed by a no fins swim dragging a drouge. Quite demanding but very rewarding. How have you found stress effects your diving/performances. Predive and dive heart rate with frc dives?

Looking forward to seeing where and how far exhale/dive response diving can go.

Cheers Nat.

Hi Nat,

What are your HR numbers like vs. time?

I am particularly interested in finding an optimal HR / effort to swim a straight dynamic. My goal is 200m on FRC with monofin (and 150+ no fins) and my question (which I'm still working on) is whether to swim for the first minute or so at a pace with a much lower effort in an attempt to persuade my body to go into a stronger dive response or to simply swim the whole thing on a 30 second/50m or faster pace and try to make my streamlining precise and my muscles able to work under than kind of stress.

So an experiment would be:
STA/DYN: note lowest drop in HR/ Avg HR during STA prior to PBP
DYN at different speeds in the first 75-100m and then speed up
Then try to optimize the DYN to make it as close to the HR in the STA phase of the best STA/DYN swims.

Also I don't think my HR monitor is sophisticated enough to show real time changes in the data.

What do you use?

I don't use a drogue chute because I feel that it is better to work on streamlining and reducing drag as much as possible. If you want resistance, I think it is better in the long run to swim faster while maintaining good form and note increases in speed and distance with the same efficiency.

IMHO, it is hard to swim against resistance and not compensate with a change in technique that sacrifices streamlining for power.

I think no fins requires excellent streamlining and timing.

What are your experiences with the drogue? Do you find it a drag? :t


Pete

 

[watts]

When i was using the drouge it was to try to simulate a deep frc dive. I was doing just over a minute frc static followed by 50m dnf in a minute with drouge which eliminates nearly all your glide and triples your stroke rate and your right it does change your technique completely closer to coming off the bottom of a dive.
The first time i wore a heart rate monitor for a break point dynamic was in Dahab with Seb and his Polar s610 recorded a pre dive HR of 145 or something and within two 5 sec. samples it was down to 50 and stayed 50 through the static and the entire swim and i even sprinted in the end. Only when i came up and about 5 seconds after breathing did it come up dramaticaly again followed by heavy lactic.
I have tried to take everything i can take froms Sebs approach and take it to inhale dynamics ie.no warm up ,no mask, get cold, keeping head out of water until start of dive and high stress levels with good results but i feel that without the initial static with no movement the same amount of DR is not possible.

At the moment i am trying to see how far i can take full exhales in the ocean pulling myself down feet first i am at around 25m with little to no feeling of squeeze and no urge to breathe.

 

[fflupo]

i m currently training for a deep dive of 80m+,
yesterday, i did some full and passive exhales to 26m in 17C sea-water with HR's below 40.
with a passive exhale i had a strong dive of 3.48 min with a nice free-fall down which i use as a kind of static because i do nothing except to equalize and keep the mouth full and shut
if i get a sensation of stress i abort the dive, but anyway with a strong DR i don t get this. it is more like the blood-shift is kickn in strong and my mind stays in a comfort zone .
usually i need like 2-3 dives to warm up and stretch the diaphragm. on a seb dive i have the biggest change in HR but works for me not really on deep dives ,more on dyn s

sometimes i just open the suit to let cold water in ;-)

sorry, i m not so good with the explanations but i m open to answer question or if you have proposals

freefall sucks

 

[Kars]

Hi Pete,

About your dynamic question, weather to do a static at the bottom or have a really lazy relaxed swim in awaiting the full DR.

The goal is I think to have a early vasoconstriction.
What does trigger you to have that?

I used to have vasoconstriction already coming on in my static preperation, just by breathing very little and slow. So maybe CO2 is mainly responsible? The cold also helps because like Eric Fattah explains cold tissue and blood can hold less CO2, triggering DR earlier?

For the monofin dynamic I would just test it out.

Be very relaxed, warm and breath little to build up the Co2, but retain good O2 at the same time. Have someone coaching taking notes and times etc.
And start with a push and glide stroke, something like 1 stroke in 5 seconds. You do your stroke slowly with very little power. In between strokes you do static. Do this until you have your usual DR (level), you normally wait for by doing a static first before a dynamic, give a signal to your coach so he can take a note of the distance and time. Now you proceed to swim at your 'normal dynamic' pace.

A diving friend of mine had a really nice result. Normally she does about a 40 sec passive exhale static on the 1,4m bottom first and than to a 50 sec dynamic covering 50m, resulting in a total dive time of 1'35".
I had her swim until the DR very slowly and relaxed, followed by turning the engine open after the DR kicked in. Resulting in a very relaxed 25m in 28 sec. 5 seconds turn (she needs to practice that more) than two more lanes, reaching a pb of 75m in 1'31".
Wearing open heal bi fins...

So you see, almost the same dive time, but with more distance covered.

I'm looking forward hearing about your experiences.

Kars

 

[Kars]

Wow Wolf! a 3'48" dive time on passive exhale!
I think I would be very happy to have a passive exhale static dive lasting that long!

1) Basically how do you pre pair for such dive?

2) What thickness suit do you use? Any weights?
3) How do you breathe?
4) How much do you breathe?
5) How does your dive profile look? Descend time, bottom, ascend time?
6) After what time do you feel DR, vasoconstriction, kicks in?

Thanks a lot!

I look forward to diving with you again!

Kars

 

[Jon]

Two quick questions about FRC pool training.

First, is everyone using a snorkel for their breath-ups? I've been using one with a small diameter bore to increase C02 and help kep the dive reflex kicked in by facial immerison and just wanted to know what others are doing.

Second, are any of you using wetsuits in the pool for FRC training? I understand that cold helps to kick things in, but as I add in extra pool workouts, of longer duratations, I was wondering about adding a suit-or, would I be better off just swimming to warm up?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[laminar]

Hi Jon,

The pool I train in is 83F.

I swim for 20 minutes (various drills) and then go into 50m repeats and the main practice.

I also cool down with 20 minutes of swimming and drills.

Total time is 90 minutes. It suits me because swimming is also important to me.

I don't use a snorkel and never wear a wetsuit.

Pete

 

[cdavis]

Yes to the snorkel and definitely yes to the wetsuit. I'd freeze without it. Even in summer, I wear a 1 mil top. For me, its too fine a line between cool enough for the best breath hold and shivering so much I can't stay down. Better off to stay reasonably warm while doing apnea.

Connor

 

[laminar]

Ah, I should clairfy.

Yes, I'd get too cold just doing sta/dyn over and over again. I think I could do 3 in a row before getting too cold. But with 25 or 50m repeats, it's fine.

For breathe up I generally just sit on the edge of the pool. Breathing up with a snorkel is great as it mimics actual diving.

I think, though, for maximum HR drop, having at least your head out of the water is better. Seb would have a more complete comment on this part of the equation. I just do it by feel at this point.

 

[Jon]

So far I've been using no wetsuit as I've only had 30 minutes at a time to swim. Now that winter is here, I think I'll add in two more days with 90 minutes in the water- thus, the wetsuit issue. I've got a vest or a full 3mm top to wear. the 3mm top would be nice, but I wonder about having my head covered- nice and warm, but will it cut down on the DR too much?

I've been using swim goggles and a snorkel for repeats every two minutes. I wear fins and just hold the snorkel in my hand when I swim. My breath ups have been per your suggestion- much shallower than with my previous diving style to buuild up C02. I used the snorkel to simulate normal diving and keep my face wet.

I had been going back and forth between fins and no-fins, but am now just using fins after and old ski injury cropped back up from raking, a lot of, leaves this past week. :crutch

So far this type of training has been much more fun than anything previous that I've tried. When I get out of the pool it feels like I just got done with a yoga class.:inlove

Jon

 

[watts]

Fflupo with those sort of times on frc have you thought about going for 80m of frc? Or is that what you are training for?
In my experience keeping my head dry before a max swim and with high levels of stress prior to dive massivly increases my dive response and focus and is something that has taken me a long time to get my head around that this nice and relaxed approach to a dive with prior breathholds with low predive HR that i was taught doesnt nessisarily help a max swim performance.

I would like to know how others find stress effects their dives and performances and keep up motivation aswell.

Jon i use no snorkle prior to dives and use a vest to keep my core ware but allowing my limbs to get cold. I find the main gains come from doing a max as often as possible and then followed by specific technique drills with easy breathholds.

 

[Bill]

I'm interested in what you come up with Jon. 'Old school' thinking, from when I first heard the term dive reflex, says that breathing defeats the reflex. Does facial immersion, as we're now taught it, help, hinder or cancel out? It makes my first dive (3-4 minute free immersion to 15 meters) more comfortable but now at least one teacher seems to say this is'nt desireable. Now-a-days, where divers want to evaluate a new fin in 5 minutes to see if it's an improvement, who do we get to stick with a new method long enough to get a good opinion?

 

[Jon]

Bill,

I started playing around with it last winter and then went back to inhale once spearing season started.:blackeye

I'm not going for records, but just recreational spearing and photography. The part that I liked most about it last winter was being able to drop 10 pounds off of my weightbelt!:friday

Since winter is here, once again, I decided to give it a real Go. I've been playing around in the pool with it a couple days a week and diving FRC the past couple of weekends. I am in the inital phases of the whole thing, but after what Conner has told me about his experiences it's worth a try.

My goal is to train in the pool 2-4 days a week and try and get out most weekends all winter long. Since my favorite winter diving spot is only 10 meters deep it seemed like the perfect thing to play around with in the shallow depths. If things go well I should have a nice, long, break-in period to try and go deeper next summer. I'm not even thinking about hitting current depths for at least two summers- if that. I'm more interested in shallow, to midwater, dives that will allow me to get close to fish so that I can shoot or photograph them.

Another reason to start working at this is for some upcoming bike-camping trips that I have started to plan with some of my neighbors. I have no room for weights, wetsuits, or fins while bike camping so mask and snorkel will have to be it. No fins to 35' isn't an issue, since that's where the thermocline is, and FRC would make staying on the bottom much easier- no more grabbing onto rocks or weeds to stay in place. It seems like the ultimate space saving type of diving to me- and a far cry from my trimix days where I had a couple of sets of doubles and a half dozen stage bottles rattling around in the back of my car.rofl

So far it's just repeat lengths on the bottom with ever longer statics before I swim. I have no one to spot me so max efforts are out of the question for me. Everything will be done in slow progression while trying to maximize comfort.

In the past I worked on a lot of high C02 drills. This feels quite the opposite than that. The contractions I've gotten seem much less intense than the ones I would get during high C02 stuff, but maybe that's just because I haven't pushed myself- or maybe it really is because I'm in a more relaxed state.

Big question for me will be how the cold plays into this for long days in the water of recreational diving vs. one-off max attempts for competition. I'm not interested in the competition part, but I also don't want to limit my water time.

Jon

 

[laminar]

Yes, exactly.

What I'm recommending is based more along the lines of comfortable and decent serial recreational diving - although I'm looking to explore the limits of this approach. I see two main approaches so far:

Seb Murat: max dive response, one rep max training for possibly/likely max adaptation. Several years ago Seb was in town and Eric, Tyler and I took him to dinner and spent 3-4 hours going over his methods and discoveries. Some stuff was pretty crazy and counter to the "ease into it" philosophy. It takes big mental willpower to train like that. I think that ideally you need a lot of free time to devote to training. If you work full time, it's very hard on you.

But I believe Seb would say that the best dive response is a shock to the system. Just like seals diving for their lives. His experiences seem to prove that out. And after a while he became desenstized to even his extreme workouts. And believe me they were extreme! One thing to keep in mind is he came to freediving as an elite athlete with an efficient aerobic system and no doubt the ability to recover faster than most.

FRC as a way of multipurpose training: Eric and I chose to try out FRC for slightly different reasons. But our common dream was that our recreational freediving would make us better freedivers year after year. And that has held true so far. Dive response is something that appears to strengthen year after year and FRC seemes to accelerate the process.

For my part in 2003, I was initially impressed by how rapid my chest adapted to FRC and that it helped eliminate chest squeeze for me. Then, but after a lengthy try-out period, I saw how amazing it was to dive for fun this way and the many advantages over inhale and packing.

I believe that a lower stress approach to freediving can yield amazing results, possibly even top 10 or top 25 on the AIDA ranking list and maybe even world records. And it is certainly good enough for recreational diving of any depth. I am more than happy to never switch back to inhale freediving.

So as we discuss different methods and objectives in FRC, it's good to keep in mind that several permutations of Seb's original approach have developed.

While Seb's extreme results are impressive and mind-blowing, I think that his method is not for everyone.

I am constantly impressed by how much people improve simply by doing STA/DYN until a point of mild discomfort or a few contractions and how fast it happens. So I'm going to continue on this path to see what it turns up.

What I find very rewarding is that it seems to benefit recreational freediving the most and the enjoyment of the practice itself (Jon called it underwater yoga and he's right) is that it generates a positibe feedback loop and a greater motivation to practice and keep it up.

For those of us who love process perhaps a little more than end results, it's awesome. I think any training/practice you can do daily that doesn't burn you out, improves your diving and is enjoyable is a good approach for most people.

And who knows what the limits are of this approach?

FRC yogi, anyone?>

 

[trux]

I'm interested in what you come up with Jon. 'Old school' thinking, from when I first heard the term dive reflex, says that breathing defeats the reflex. Does facial immersion, as we're now taught it, help, hinder or cancel out?

Yes, Bill, you are right - breathing suppresses the DR, and facial immersion helps it. But that's exactly why you do not want to have a strong DR during your dive preparation. You want to have strong DR during the dive, not before it. And that's so because the DR is a low oxygen consumption mode, which means it drains your resources. If it drains them too early, you'll have less of them during the dive. When preparing your dive, you want to saturate all your oxygen stores, and wash out lactic acid from muscles. If you have a strong DR even during the recovery, oxygen stores cannot be efficiently recharged, and lactic acid cannot be removed from muscles.

 

[Bill]

Thanks Pete.
This time of year I like to think about next year's training. In '07 I opted for slower and easier in static. No more back-to-back sevens and such. I was rewarded with my first eights but more and more that seems to depend on the number of years playing the game, not the training. '08 has been a near disaster with few bright spots. More than enough for me to come back for more though. Negatives and exhales are definately on the list.

"The pool I train in is 83F." That alone would be fun in the winter.