Exhale (FRC) Adaptation

[efattah]

In my case, VC varies from 7.40 to 8.05L, and my FRC volume is 3.1 to 3.3L.

I have started doing my FRC training dives with lower and lower volume, close to FRC now. Yet, as I improve, my times are similar to my times when I was doing them on higher-than-FRC. My new best for static/dynamic is 2'24" (1'15" static followed by 1'09" dynamic). My current dynamic best has reached a momentary plateau of 1'37", though I have done as many as five >1'30" FRC dynamics in a row with 1'30" recoveries. My current no-fins (FRC) best stands at 21 strokes in 1'05". All of these are in a 6.5mm/5mm suit.

The iron deficiency is a constant battle. I ran out of iron for a while, my progress stopped, my iron deficiency symptoms became worse. Finally I got a hold of some more iron, though not of the best type.

 

[Absolute]

I haven't had the iron deficiency problem yet. But I am not even close to were you are. What distance are you getting on your dyn part of the breath hold? I was getting around 2.6f/sec on my dynamic and on my dives (shallow as they have been) result in a 2f/sec decent rate.

 

[tylerz]

Actually I have done tons more spirometer tests and find that my FRC volume as reported by the spirometer I am using is:

2.2-2.5L


I discovered that it is harder than it sounds to get used to the exact passive exhale point. I varried attempts to find it by starting with full lungs and then releasing, starting with forcefully exhaled lungs and then letting them self-inflate, and just relaxing in general with open epiglottis finding the point where air neither would go in or out and diaghram was very relaxed (harder than it sounds and usually would have to hold my breath for 15 secs to be sure I had reached this). In the end the last technique seemed most consistent and was the medium between the other two, although eventually I had them at the same point in general. Interesting.

 

[tylerz]

Re: volumes

Real or unreal FRC?
I assume you are talking WET FRC (exhale done with chest under water).

All the tests I have done are dry FRC. If you do it with chest under water it is going to be even smaller. Is this how you guys did it? Why? In the water I have done them both floating belly up on the surface to avoid the effects of water and upright. However, I think due to the lack of sensitivity to my passive point, I was not getting significantly consistent results that expressed the difference. I hazard to guess unless those tests of people at the coarse were only done after lots of practice finding the passive point, then they would be rather inaccurate as well. My variance in reports were <2L to 3.5L, where I have now found it to be 2.3L relative to the spirometer.

 

[derelictp]

I belive the volume "FRC" you are comparing is actually FRC-RV; in other words ERV (Expiratory reserve volume).

 

[tylerz]

I belive the volume "FRC" you are comparing is actually FRC-RV; in other words ERV (Expiratory reserve volume).

Yes, actually I am stating ERV but I guess I assumed that had become synonymous in these discussions with FRC as I don't think many have had access to anything to test their FRC or RV? However, now I see what Sebastian was referring to. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

So, I have no clue what my FRC volume is.

 

[watts]

Over the last year a few Sydney divers and myself have been participating in experiments at one of Sydneys major hospitals to better understand the effects of packing on the lungs and heart. Weve had lots of weird and wonderful tests done.
Some of the Respiratory results for myself were; TLC 10.82 , VC 8.67 ,FRC 3.66, ERV 1.75 RV 1.93.

Attatched is a matrix test they were doing on us trying to work out increases in lung volumes i think. It was cool seeing myself projected onto a huge screen through a computer and turned into little dots and seeing it move in real time. I will try to post their findings soon.

Cheers Nathan Watts

 

[efattah]

During my FRC training I have had some problems in standardizing the amount of air I start each dive with.

Initially I would inhale to the max then exhale a bit. Now I switched it to exhale fully then relax (bringing air back in).

By noting my buoyancy from one dive to the next I can see how much difference there is in my lung volume -- note that buoyancy from the start of the session to the end changes, due to the blood shift changing my residual volume.

However, it would appear that these 'random' uncertainties in my lung volume seem to have only a very minor effect on swim time. For a dynamic lasting about 1'30", the difference in an 'error' in my starting lung volume usually translates into about a gain or loss just 2 or 3 seconds, and maybe if the error in lung volume was larger, an absolute max of +/- 5 seconds for a 1'30" swim. So, as an example, if I am doing 1'30" repeats, and I accidentally take in too little air, I end up with 1'25". Likewise if I inhale a bit too much, I end up with 1'35". This isn't the drastic variance that some people might worry about, in the case of inhale the wrong amount.

However, at the start of each dive I still have a bit of worry in terms of standardizing my lung volume; there is no longer much reason to worry, but it is a built in habit I guess.

 

[tylerz]

Yes, actually I am stating ERV but I guess I assumed that had become synonymous in these discussions with FRC as I don't think many have had access to anything to test their FRC or RV? However, now I see what Sebastian was referring to.

Actually, it arrose that Sebastian is referring to ERV as well. So, I think our emphasis on "REAL" was what I originally thought; referring to a completely passive exhale as opposed to something less than completely passive.

 

[efattah]

My 9th FRC training session brought a bunch of new pb's:
dynamic with fins 1'49"
static/dynamic 2'36" (1'15"/1'21")
dynamic without fins 1'20"
plus a nice recreational dive of 33.3m in 1'54"

Still struggling against the iron deficiency.

 

[Ben Gowland]

Eric - your point about the volume inhaled having little effect on the dive time is quite consistent with my experiences too (described in my last post above). The other, that amazed me even more, was that my maximum equalisation depth was barely affected by my inhalation volume.

I also exhale all I can (comfortably) and then relax my chest before I dive. I've always prefered that technique.

Ben

 

[ADR]

Nath - You are a crash test dummy!!

 

[Absolute]

The other day:
5x dyn 1'15" with equal rest periods.
5x dnf 1'09" with equal rest periods.

This really kicked my butt, but recovery times were quick. Just after surfacing my heart rate would be noticably high but only for 10 or 15 seconds. Then it would fall rapidly to a relaxing pace.

For some reason my distances with fins and without fins were almost the same. only 30m. and 12 strokes with no fins.

I was alot more relaxed with no fins and had a long glide inbetween strokes.
Mabey I was more shifted in no fins than with. I don't know, but training like this really taxes the body for o2 but I never was fuzzy headed.

 

[pat fish]

Eric, I write regarding Iron-Deficiency. There is a medicine called "Gyno-Tardyferon" by Robapharm here in Europe. They use it for Iron-Deficiancy mainly for pregnant women. The main advantage lies in the added mucoproteosis which leads to a drastically reduced release of Fe+ Ions, thus providing a much better uptake a) over time and b) in deeper intestinal sections. Check it out, maybe there is a similar product in Canada which might be good for you.

cheers
Pat

 

[samdive]

Can I ask a stupid question (because a load of us were together on Saturday night and we couldn't agree on this)

what does FRC actually stand for? My money was on forced residual capacity but I'm probably wrong....

 

[naiad]

I think it stands for Functional Residual Capacity.

 

[Adrian]

The Freediving Research Council has got together and the answer is: Functional Residual Capacity!

 

[DeepThought]

The main advantage lies in the added mucoproteosis which leads to a drastically reduced release of Fe+ Ions, thus providing a much better uptake a) over time and b) in deeper intestinal sections.

Did a search on 'mucoproteusis' and 'mucoproteose' and couldn't figure much but that it revolves around digestion (or delaying of). Any clarifications?

 

[samdive]

so that means like - a normal breath out rather than a forced breath out - right?

 

[Adrian]

Yes, a passive exhale only, not forcing it further than its normal "resting place" at the end of the exhale.