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Extreme Dolfinism G2

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It's a strong build ,but I see the weight has been kept to a minimum , nice, I don't quite understand the toe support, i'm guessing it's to make it more rigid, doubt it needs it however.
It's not a bad thing to support the shoe, it reduces the stress/flex on the shoe which means you don't have to resort to expensive carbon soled shoes for the fin to maintain its efficiency and also keeps the cost of ownership down.



The toe support bracket can be seen at the beginning of the video. It is a somewhat rectangular bracket bolted to the frame under the toes of the shoes. The toe support will reduce the stress on the shoes which has advantages. Keep in mind that we are pushing these cycling shoes into a use they were not designed to support. The load differences between the two uses are significantly different.

The very nature of a bicycle pedal nearly eliminates the torque loads on the shoe interface. In cycling, the loads on the shoe are restricted to predominantly axial loads (compressive and tensile) and a small amount of shear force with miniscule torques that are essentially the shear load multiplied by a lever arm that is 1/2 the height thickness of a pedal (about a centimeter).

In comparison, the primary load a monofin transmits to the shoe is torque. The fin generates nearly equal parts shear and axial loads and these loads are multiplied by a lever-arm that is at least 25 times larger than the bicycle pedal's lever arm, which results in very large torque at the shoe interface. These loads need to be resolved, and the frame on the Pilot2 does this by resolving the torque into force couples that result in axial loads at the bolt interface to the shoe.

The larger the radius on the force couple the smaller the axial forces to balance the torque. The frame on the Pilot has a radius that is double that of the basic Look bolt pattern. The Look pattern also has an imbalance in that it is a triangle orientated such that the swimmer's largest power stroke applies the maximum tensile load to a single bolt at the toe end of the interface. I'm proposing to eliminate this bolt and use the other two bolts in a balanced force couple so that the swimmer's power stroke shares the maximum tensile loads through these two bolts. Combined with the doubled radius of the lever arm, this system will cut the maximum stress on the bolt interfaces to the shoe by a factor of 4 over just using the basic Look system as it was designed for cycling.

Adding the toe support creates a nearly equal force couple for the swimmer's return stroke. The return stroke is generally not as forceful as the powerstroke, but now it will have the same level of protection against breaking the shoes.

The frame also supports the sole about 1/2 the length out along the length of the sole, so the sole of the shoe only needs to be half as strong as if it were unsupported. All are good measures to minimize the chances of having structural problems with the shoes. :)
 
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I have gone through 7 CAD revisions since the original concept drawing was posted, and I have now built and tested two of those 7 revisions. The latest hardware simplifies the manufacturing a little over the first prototype and, I'm pretty sure, will be stronger as well. Overall, I'm pleased with the design. With size 42 Tri Fly V shoes attached and a large size fin blade, the latest prototype is weighing in at 1.9 Kg.

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Chips questions about flex got me to experimenting with my x18. The way I had my wooden floats are attached, they prevent any flex at all in the shoe soles, but when I take them off, the shoe aft of the aluminum frame flexes just a little when under a lot of power. Any flex represents some wasted energy, but I don't think it would be measurable in a recreational fin like the x20 or pilot.

Ron, (1) has anyone ever raised this issue or have you thought about it?

(2) Am I correct that the way the Orca2 is constructed, this type of flex is not present?

Connor
 
Hi Connor!

It is good to be aware of shoe flex as a variable to use setting fin attack angle etc..... Or largely eliminate shoe flex taking more control with the fin itself as Revan's large surface interface would do. Obviously either concept can be made to work very well.

The two photos are an easily visible comparison of Shimano flex level 6 composite shoes to Shimano flex level 11 carbon soled shoes. If you look closely Shimano prints the flex number on the bottom of the sole. (3rd photo)
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Strangely my wide open throttle time for 25 yards was exactly the same at 11.8 seconds with both of the set ups shown. I thought stiffer felt more responsive but it did not show on the clock. Both also felt OK conserving breath which is what most of us become interested in.... Didn't have an accurate simple idea to measure that.
 
Chips questions about flex got me to experimenting with my x18. The way I had my wooden floats are attached, they prevent any flex at all in the shoe soles, but when I take them off, the shoe aft of the aluminum frame flexes just a little when under a lot of power. Any flex represents some wasted energy, but I don't think it would be measurable in a recreational fin like the x20 or pilot.

Ron, (1) has anyone ever raised this issue or have you thought about it?

(2) Am I correct that the way the Orca2 is constructed, this type of flex is not present?

Connor

(1) Originally, I didn't really give shoe flex any independent consideration. Shoe flex was taken into account in the tuning of the fin's suspension system, so shoe flex and suspensions flex was a lump sum line-item in the design matrix. Since the X-20 was sold with the shoes, this was a non-issue for customers. Like you, I started to think about shoe flex as an independent feature after attaching float system that made the flex apparent and also affected the amount of flex the shoe could exhibit. Turns out it was a not enough flex to really be noticeable in swimming or resultant performance, so it was good that the design was not sensitive to that "feature" of the shoe. The worst case scenario is the customer changes the fin's trim plates to compensate for a shoe that exhibits excessive shoe flex.

(2) Yes, you are correct on this. The only system flex that is present in the Orca2's foot attachment, is the flex of the foot that is in the fin. The frame itself is very sturdy and rigid. It is probably also worth mentioning that the Tri Fly V shoes attached to the Pilot2 prototype in my previous post are quite rigid compared to the RT32 shoes used on the X-20. I estimate they don't flex more than about a centimeter at the heel when in use (about twice as stiff as the RT32).
 
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@cdavis

Can you talk more about why you use a monofin for spearfishing? This seems to be highly unusual, in that almost all spearos use bi-fins. You are the only one I know of who uses a monofin, and you happen to be using a DOL-Fin. I have used the DOL-Fin to spear before, and thought it worked quite well, but I'm super comfortable swimming with the DOL-Fin monofin, so that's not too big of a surprise.

I'd like to know more about what specific things motivated you to look at alternatives to bi-fins for hunting.

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@cdavis

Can you talk more about why you use a monofin for spearfishing? This seems to be highly unusual, in that almost all spearos use bi-fins. You are the only one I know of who uses a monofin, and you happen to be using a DOL-Fin. I have used the DOL-Fin to spear before, and thought it worked quite well, but I'm super comfortable swimming with the DOL-Fin monofin, so that's not too big of a surprise.

I'd like to know more about what specific things motivated you to look at alternatives to bi-fins for hunting.

View attachment 40194
I love that shot!

I wasn't looking for a better fin specifically for spearfishing, but it had to be reasonably good for spearing.

About 10 years back I got to try a fin swimmers mono fin and was totally blown away by the speed and power.
Amazing performance, but the thing was so uncomfortable that wearing it for free diving was out of the question. Still, I was certain that somebody would design a free divers mono. So began a long search for a mono that could be used for my kind of diving. Over time, monos for free diving began to develop. I tried quite a few, but none were capable of spearfishing nor were they maneuverable enough for my kind of diving, nor did they "feel" good to me. Until the Dol-fin came along. Buying the x18 from you was a bit of a gamble. I wasn't sure it would work, but I know Peter Scott and he had worn that particular fin and said good things about it, so it was worth a try. First day in the pool I was pretty sure it would work. It took one Bahama trip, some buoyancy tweaking and time to really get used to the fin, but I'm happy with it for my kind of spearfishing. I'm absolutely delighted with it for just about everything else. In truth, if you just want to spearfish, maneuverability is king and you don't care about other things, bifins are better. However, in the overall picture of what I do(reef crawling, spearing, exploring), the Dol-fin is considerably superior to bifins.

Specific to hunting is the maneuverability, the Dol-fin has the ability to make fine adjustments in attitude and direction, similar to bifins. No other mono I tried came close in this area, which is critical to spearing. I think this is a function of the small surface area. I suspect that, if you are as good with a mono as Fondueset, you might get the same level of maneuverability out of a hyperfin, but that is way beyond me, or most other divers.

Funny thing happened in the development process and my search. The extreme speed and power of a fin swimmers sprint mono dissipated as the fins became better for free diving (more efficient at lower speeds). The end result is still better than bifins and way more efficient, but nowhere near that sprint fin.

Its been a fun journey, with lots of unexpected discoveries. I'm super curious about the Orca2. Would its increased efficiency be combined with the other good characteristics of my x18?

Connor
 
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I had thought that the primary requirement for hunting is the ability to get down to the bottom and lay in wait until you can lewer a curious fish to within shooting range. Then you shoot and swim back to the surface. If that is right, it would seem that the ability to get down to the bottom without much effort, so that you can do a long static on the bottom, should be more important than maneuverability.

If there was a way to optimize this ability of reaching the bottom without breaking the relaxation of a static, could the DOL-Fin become an attractive propulsion technology for spear fishers?
 
Neat statement about moving without "breaking the relaxation".

Describes the common theme of under water experiences...

Insightful..Very nice wordSmithing!
 
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Neat statement about moving without "breaking the relaxation".

Describes the common theme of under water experiences...

Insightful..Very nice wordSmithing!
For diving on apnea, relaxation is critical. I have gotten overly excited at a good dive location before, and overexerted myself surface swimming while hurriedly swimming out to the dive site. My punishment for this overexertion was that I basically destroyed my apnea ability for the duration of the swimming excursion. It took all the fun out of my dives.

So, the more relaxed you are, the more comfortable you will be, and you can enjoy more bottom time. For spearing, more bottom time usually translates to more opportunities to shoot a fish (the right fish).
 
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Depends on your spearfishing style, a lot, and you are right about staying relaxed. I usually spot fish from the surface and drop straight down on them, shoot, chase 'em down, then swim back up. The ability to make fine adjustments on the way down, without spooking the fish and doing so in a very relaxed manner, is critical. With that style, also critical is a relaxed vertical drop. That's why getting the fins buoyancy right was so important. It has so much less drag than bifins that it has to be more buoyant. Otherwise you can't stay relaxed and must move too much, spooks the fish.

I'd say that getting the buoyancy right is the best way to optimize the fin for spearfishing and get the fastest, most relaxed descent. I'm still playing with buoyancy, both in the fin and in the neck weight. As it is now its neutral, for me, its fine for spearing, but I'm not quite as relaxed and "natural" as with bifins. I think the fin needs to be more buoyant than neutral and add some neck weight to make it even (I think). I'm building new floats now.

Another thing that might help is even less surface area/drag. That might make it even easier to make fine adjustments as well as improving glide and descent. Not sure about that one.

Something else about the Dol-fin that I like very much, acceleration. MUCH better than even very stiff bifins. The ability to jump access a short distance(you called it "pounce", good description) is very useful when shooting a spear that has no line.

Connor
 
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The style probably depends a lot on the location and conditions. I think the style I was describing is common on shallow reefs and is probably favored when fishing in 5 to 10 meters depth (when reaching the bottom is very easy), or any time the visibility is less than the depth of the water and you have to be down to be able to see the fish you are hunting. What you are doing sounds like it is a technique optimized for fishing in 10 to 20 meters depth and in good visibility (maybe up to 30m if conditions are exceedingly good). Bluewater hunting is something different again.

What are the more common fishing techniques?
 
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They style probably depends a lot on the location and conditions. I think the style I was describing is common on shallow reefs and is probably favored when fishing in 5 to 10 meters depth (when reaching the bottom is very easy), or any time the visibility is less than the depth of the water and you have to be down to be able to see the fish you are hunting. What you are doing sounds like it is a technique optimized for fishing in 10 to 20 meters depth and in good visibility (maybe up to 30m if conditions are exceedingly good). Bluewater hunting is something different again.

What are the more common fishing techniques?


You got my style figured just about right. The depth limitation is more about the free shaft than anything else. Much deeper needs a gun with a float line or reel.

Styles:
Aspetto, what you described, mostly works well with a gun.
clear water with fish that are not too spooky, what I do. (I'm annoyed if the vis isn't at least close to 30 m.). works well with a gun or sling or pole gun.
creep along on the bottom: dirty water with a gun (or pole gun if its really dirty).
creep into caves, not what I want to do, gun with a light is best.
Blue water, probably lots of styles I know nothing about.
 
@Chipswim
You do not seem like the typical monofin customer. Cdavis is unusual in that he hunts with a monofin. I'm thinking there must be a story behind your monofin adventures as well.

My impression is that you are not really a freediver in the stereotypical sense, and that you might even spend as much time swimming on the surface as underwater. Most people doing laps in the pool use rubber bi-fins or nothing but the swimsuit and goggles.

What was the impetus that first got you to purchase a monofin?
 
Kind of you to ask.... Except in here I'm not exposed to other monofinners of any kind.... So there wasn't a pattern to follow. I feel peace in the water... Always have.

Broken legs... A bad one left me with a kick that was getting me nowhere. Zero dolphin kick.. Started bifin swimming on the surface with a snorkel. Liked it and continued most mornings for years.

Favorite bifins a set purchased used for ten bucks from graduating high school swim team member.... Maybe a couple thousand miles on them.
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Swim team parent got a set of three plastic Finis mono fins.... As a training tool. No one used them for years. I tried them one day they were awful and they hurt feet immediately.

Years later sent for a nice Leader fiberglass mono. Thought it was so cool. It died young. Tree fell on it during a tornado. Found Lunocet when looking to replace it. I was 60 when the first one came 64 1/2 now have swam one most mornings since for an hour. Almost always in a pool underwater smiling up at those who appear to me to be engaging in drudgery on the surface. Call myself a self appointed test swimmer for the evolving monfins. No one in my home pool has come down with me yet but they are kind and tolerate me well. The pool built in 1976 is ageing. Hope it can stay open.

As ideas occur I try them out to keep a little fresh entertainment in the swims. Recently I swim inverted a lot, use a skin suit, and a fore fin which is actually an avalanche shovel. I tend to go slower and farther than before reading in here. The best swims of my life so far are occurring right now. Ideas / written coaching from deeper blue members greatly accelerated the learning and entertainment curves. Gratitude for that! Hope to continue indefinitely. Maybe get around some of you guys some where some time.
 
...plastic Finis mono fins.... As a training tool. No one used them for years. I tried them one day they were awful and they hurt feet immediately.
Years later sent for a nice Leader fiberglass mono. Thought it was so cool....

It sounds like your first encounter with a monofin was completely negative and years passed without motivation to further pursue.

What happened to make you reconsider monofins and put good money down on Leaderfin? It's not like they are easy to buy, or even come across to see one in person unless you socialize with freedivers or finswimmers (both probably rare in your state). But, it seems your path must have somehow crossed someone else's path who monofins, and something happened to make you reconsider. That's the story, I'm interested in. The story about how you decided you wanted to monofin badly enough to go through the trouble to get one.
 
OK.... You asked!

I've done a little touristy scuba diving and like Sea World shows etc. At such a place in Australia one day I was kind of away from everyone and there was a dolphin that seemed to notice me. I knew they were smart and could communicate so I thought I'll be quiet and see if I receive anything?

Clear as a bell I got: "One fin!"

Wondering whether the thought came from him or me..... I got the second dose: "One fin you idiot!"

So I resolved to pursue the idea.... Know a good therapist?
 
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True enough. Best improved by swimming more....
 
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