Extreme Dolfinism G2

[Philip Fennell]

I've used 5 pairs of Shimanos. Eventually daily swimming destroys the shoes.

@Chipswim So that's five pairs of shoes over what period of time?
Daily as in five swims per week or more?

 

[Chipswim]

Three pairs of the five are still swimmable. One pair the top separated from the sole. One pair the composite sole actually snapped in half.

Swimming is an escape from the real world for me and the most convenient reliable fitness activity. Also get a kick out of observing and experiencing these neat Monos as they are developing.

Soooo..... The pool opens weekdays 6-7am weekends 7-8am. It was built in 1976 the USA bicentennial year. I came home from special forces that same year. On my best behavior I'm there for each of those morning sessions.... I'm not always on my best behavior though. The fun fins and being in touch with you guys help with motivation..... Thanks!

Maybe I should say I'm not particularly adept at regular swimming, but the underwater thing with fins seems more natural.

There has been talk the old pool is tough and expensive to keep running. When I see it in the morning it is apparent this can't go on forever. I suspect the pool looks back at me and thinks the same..... Can't go on forever. Always some fun involved and I'm pleased with myself AFTER each swim.

 

[Philip Fennell]

Three pairs of the five are still swimmable. One pair the top separated from the sole. One pair the composite sole actually snapped in half.

Thanks @Chipswim

Ok, so two of the five shoes failed over what I'd guess is the last 12 months, is that correct? The other shoes you've bought and used to try them out yes?

What I'm trying to gauge is the 'running cost' of monofins that use cycling shoes as the person/fin interface.


Philip

 

[Chipswim]

Oh! I get it.... Ordered my first Luno when I was 59.... Came when I was 60... Am 64 1/2 now. I've had the last three iterations of the fins, fourth coming...... I think a set of shoes is good for about 200 hours of swimming. Mine usually don't get completely dry unless I skip a day. Even if they are damp I soak them completely in the pool then tighten them once more.

If you read back Noa first came up with the cycling shoe idea.... Cool that we all get to know him in here. Brilliant compared to rubber foot pockets.

Of course Revan's unique design is yet another world.... Yet to be experienced for me. What is the right name for his design? Foot Pod? Fairing? That video when he cuts the sleek pattern is pretty cool!

 

[cdavis]

Another experience, not quite as intense as Chips:

Mine are about 3 years old, on a prototype of the Dol-Fin x20, probably get used an average of twice a week, including some fairly intense salt water trips. The Shimano shoes are about shot, holes wearing in the sides of the heels, the velco giving out on one buckle and the ferrous links in the strap system long since gone. I've bought new, and expect the old ones to die completely in a few more months.

 

[Chipswim]

Hmmmmmm...... Twice a week times one hundred fifty weeks = about 300 hours. Maybe these new ones can go that long. Had new ratchets already. Mine generally look very tired before they die too Connor! I still like them a lot.

 

[Philip Fennell]

Mine are about 3 years old, on a prototype of the Dol-Fin x20, probably get used an average of twice a week, including some fairly intense salt water trips.

@cdavis Wow, you've had your X-20 prototype for three years and although your shoes are almost worn out you've not experienced any breakages. That's good info. That helps put things into perspective because you hear people expressing a conventional monofin's life expectancy to be less than that and here you'd only have to replace the interface and not the fin itself.

This, along with comfort and portability, is why I'm very much interested in the new breed of monofins like the DOL-Fin products. With the recent comment from @REVAN about encompassing a wider range of shoe choices by supporting the Look system too makes for a very flexible, modular and maintainable system which I think is very positive step in the right direct for our sport.

 

[Chipswim]

That IS impressive... = Not likely to break when you are in a hairy situation..... Can think of one even more destructive swim equip test dummy....

 

[REVAN]

......a revealing choice! You must be doing a much gentler movement than I'm used to.

The single Velcro closure would be challenging to get the very secure shoe tightness I've come to prefer.

I've used 5 pairs of Shimanos. Eventually daily swimming destroys the shoes. My favorite set up is carbon sole (stiffness rating 11) with two Velcro attachments at the toe and instep and the ratcheting closure at the top. I prefer my synthetic leather uppers over my mesh uppers feeling the tougher material yields better power transfer. That said all the variations worked, but my current preference is the one described.

I've been wary of the ratchet closures. Mechanical things with metal springs and pins seem like they would have an unusually short service life when subjected to an ocean environment on a daily bases. This is why I have always chosen shoes that use simple Velcro closures over the top of the shoe. Velcro doesn't corrode. I figure the less metal is in a shoe the better, and better still if it is removable and replaceable. That is why I use the SH-RT32 on the X-20. The metal SPD plate in the shoe is easily removed and replaced if needed (though I don't think any have actually needed to be replaced so far).

Which Shimano shoes did you use, how did they fail and how long did they last before the failure? With near daily use alternating between ocean and pool (probably the worst duty cycles imaginable) the RT32 is getting about 3 years of service before the plasticized metal buckles on the velcro straps corrode out. At that time, the shoes can either be replaced, or with a little effort, the original buckles can be replaced with plastic ones and new Velcro loop fastener can be sewn in.

I haven't had any issues with the simple velcro closures not being strong enough, nor have I had any issues with the cloth uppers of the RT32 shoes. It all seems to be functioning as desired on the X-20, and shoes shown in the above post for potential use on the Look Pilot have a much larger velcro closure than the RT32. I think it would be okay, but having only seen the shoe in pictures, I don't have a lot of insight on the its internal details yet.

If the Lunocet is requiring a lot higher power input than the X-20, the kicking loads will be higher and problems related with shoe strength and closure strength will be more likely to happen. The RT32 uses a nylon reinforced plastic sole and has only 2 small Velcro closures over the top of the shoe. It functions virtually problem free on the X-20. Keep in mind that the X-20 frame supports the sole of the shoe, so the composite of the two components together is stronger than the shoe by itself. But, there have been no reported incidence of closure failures or the shoe's upper separating from it's sole on an X-20.

 

[REVAN]

Another experience, not quite as intense as Chips:

Mine are about 3 years old, on a prototype of the Dol-Fin x20, probably get used an average of twice a week, including some fairly intense salt water trips. The Shimano shoes are about shot, holes wearing in the sides of the heels, the velco giving out on one buckle and the ferrous links in the strap system long since gone. I've bought new, and expect the old ones to die completely in a few more months.

Keep in mind that I used that fin for about 16 months before I sold it to you, Connor. Although, the shoes that you bought with it had only been installed on the fin for about 5 months. (Connor's fin has the RT31 shoe which is basically an earlier version of the RT32. It's very similar, but not exactly the same shoe.)

 

[Chipswim]

I'm buying into all you observed.

I know we've written about some of this before... Maybe in Noa's Cycling shoe for monofinning thread.

What triggered me to write the most was really the single Velcro closure only over the instep in the shoes pictured. Maybe I can relax better if I can pursuade you to consider keeping the two Velcro strap concept you've proven already? I have an early Shimano Carbon sole set like that I thought was OK till the Velcro stopped gripping. I'm pretty sure I/we transfer significant force through the top of our feet.... Especially in the area of the toe nuckles. That particular shoe in your photo doesn't have a strap over that toe top area of the foot. So it would either fit or it wouldn't. Then if it stretched over time?.... I guess I pictured them disappointing you then going back to bicycle duty or the bottom of the closet. Didn't want that to happen.

 

[cdavis]

To Phillip's comment: I always expected the shoes would wear out sometime, but the fin itself shows no sign of any failure, even after Revan, me and several other divers. Its scratched as heck and the non-anodized aluminum the frame it is made of (remember its only a prototype) shows considerable surface corrosion, but none of that is going to affect performance any time soon. The foil seems indestructible. I used to worry about it on the boat, that someone or something heavy might fall on it when it happened to be supported only on the ends of the foil. Similar things have happened, with no problems so far, so I've become much more confident.

Looking at the Lunocet shoe attachment relative to how the Dolfin does it,I agree with Revan, the Luno doesn't look as strong and I haven't heard of anyone with a Dolfin managing to do Chips and Apnea Addicts trick with the shoe sole separating from rest of the shoe. Of course, Chip is just a hair more destructive than most of us.

 

[cdavis]

Chip sounds right on the single velco strap idea. Having two is a definite advantage for my shoes, much more flexible for different situations.

 

[Apneaddict]

Looking at the Lunocet shoe attachment relative to how the Dolfin does it,I agree with Revan, the Luno doesn't look as strong and I haven't heard of anyone with a Dolfin managing to do Chips and Apnea Addicts trick with the shoe sole separating from rest of the shoe. Of course, Chip is just a hair more destructive than most of us.

To keep things in perspective, the shoes that I ate through are made with a crappy non-waterproof epoxy. That's the SINGLE biggest factor in this whole issue.

The compounding factor for me at that time, is the the articulating spring was solid and not flexing and that combined with the much larger chord length of the Lunocet (vs the Dol-Fin foils) lead to a massive stall and the insane drag / forces broke away the crappy epoxy.

 

[REVAN]

I'm buying into all you observed.

I know we've written about some of this before... Maybe in Noa's Cycling shoe for monofinning thread.

What triggered me to write the most was really the single Velcro closure only over the instep in the shoes pictured. Maybe I can relax better if I can pursuade you to consider keeping the two Velcro strap concept you've proven already? I have an early Shimano Carbon sole set like that I thought was OK till the Velcro stopped gripping. I'm pretty sure I/we transfer significant force through the top of our feet.... Especially in the area of the toe nuckles. That particular shoe in your photo doesn't have a strap over that toe top area of the foot. So it would either fit or it wouldn't. Then if it stretched over time?.... I guess I pictured them disappointing you then going back to bicycle duty or the bottom of the closet. Didn't want that to happen.

Well I figured this was similar to what I was using already with the Rt32 because I really only use the first closure and the second one up near the toe just stays permanently set. The shoe I was considering has a fixed sewn load strap over the toe that I figured would be equivalent. But, I see your point also and don't want to waste money on shoes that won't work. It may be less risky to use something more like this one.

What do you think of this shoe (Pearl Izumi Tri Fly IV)? This would keep the second closure over the toe and would be more like what I was using with the RT32. The other shoe may work also, but I'd have to buy it and try it to know. Price aside, the shoe with the single closure looks slightly cleaner and may have a little less drag to it.

 

[Apneaddict]

I've had my eye on those for a while. They do look good.

I am keen on finding the PERFECT tri-shoe.

It'll dry fast and the loops are IDEAL to carry the fin by.

 

[Philip Fennell]

Having had a good look at a number of tri-shoes I wasn't convinced of the tongue-less design as I figured that our power stroke, the downstroke, puts pressure on the top of the shoe compared to the cyclist's which puts pressure on the insole. Therefore, without a tongue we would experience pressure points on the top of the foot.

On the up-side you have less to dry out but in the end I settled on the road version of the Bont Riot as my first try-out. This also has the ratchet, which there are mixed opinions on, but I thought I'd try it and Bont does replacement ratchet components (I must remember to order some spares!).

As I still don't have the Lunocet fin I ordered last April I cannot give any feedback on my choice of shoe yet but I recall that others have tried the Bont shoes but I don't recall who.

 

[Chipswim]

That was pretty cool.... Almost a shoe consensus there for a few hours!

I like the general direction monofin development is traveling.... The equipment we get to use express varying degrees of wonderful. Shoes too.

Everyone has been willing to take ideas that are just close... Not yet perfect and put effort in to make them work and keep moving....... Patience in abundance too. Phillip! You've been a great citizen! You are clearly overdue....... Hope a happy parcel hits your porch instantly!

 

[REVAN]

I've got a couple interested parties considering going in on this, but I'm still looking for more people to back this product. To add more definition to the product, this is an example of what I'm proposing for a DOL-Fin Pilot that uses the Look pattern (3 bolt) shoe interface. The fin system is quite mature from a technology standpoint, already having several years of operations in its development history. So, there is not too much risk there. This project just needs to work out the shoe interface and frame structural details. It should be a fairly straightforward project.

Again, I'm looking for some backers to kickstart this project. A pledge of $499+shipping for your destination will get you a beta prototype with everything needed to start swimming except the shoes. You will provide and mount your own shoes to the fin. Please, PM me if you are interested in backing this project, and together, we can make this product a reality.
View attachment 40055

Thought I'd give this a bump, as I'm still looking for enough interested people to kick off this project.

In the meantime, I've been looking at shoes to use for the development and validation of the design. Having a plan in place will speed things along, should the project become funded. I already have a design on the table to move forward with, and now I think I have a good shoe to mate that design with for testing. I'm leaning toward the new Pearl Izumi Tri Fly V. It is similar to the Tri Fly IV, but the V is new enough that I'm having trouble finding pictures of it online. Here are some pics directly from P.I.

Which color should I go with? I'm leaning toward black because it looks cool, but the bright colors are also interesting.

I'm a big fan of the heel strap loops. I think they will be very useful for getting the monofin on your feet while in the water and wearing thick gloves.

 

[REVAN]

...A pledge of $499+shipping for your destination will get you a beta prototype with everything needed to start swimming except the shoes. You will provide and mount your own shoes to the fin. Please, PM me if you are interested in backing this project, and together, we can make this product a reality.
View attachment 40055

I was just thinking, I should probably offer it with shoes as well in case anyone would like to jump in and support this project, but would like to have the same shoes I'm using. Let me know before I launch the project and order my shoes, and I can order extra shoes in your size to install on your new monofin. For the project as currently planned, it'll be a $79 delta to add the Tri Fly V shoes to the standard pledge defined in the above offer (if you let me know in time). That's an awesome deal and to add these same shoes yourself, I'm sure, would be more expensive.