Extreme Dolfinism

[Fondueset]

Because it's fun to look at things - here is an edit showing the Orca and Starfin side-by-side in 75 yard swims.
The files are synched to where my face crosses the mid-line on the first 25 - but on that lap I got the orca hung up on a lane marker during the turn blah blah. Anway, factors aside - here it is:

 

[wjohnson100]

I had that very same thing happen to me during a competition recently. Ron Suggested a kind of turn that would take the lane markers out of play, so-to-speak. The turn is made with the fin blade horizontal throughout the turn. It is not a turn you would use with a normal monofin, but it is very effective with the ORCA.

 

[Fondueset]

Reminder - Eric is using a 32 inch foil (sans tip inserts) and has markedly improved his technique since this 77.9 meter dive:

 

[Fondueset]

Thought I'd lively-up this thread with an executive summary:

The Dol-fin Orca I'm testing now - with the 30-inch blade - is probably on the order of 8%-10% behind my star fin in the pool.
There are two important qualifiers in that statement.

Blade: I've run this same fin with about a 26 inch blade - the performance difference is very noticeable. One of the advantages of this design is you can tweak the blade width with little-to-no drag penalty. Based on the changes I noticed when I put on the larger blade
I think 32 inches will bring at least parity.

Pool: I think the performance difference between the dol-fin Orca and my #3 Starfins will shrink in a longer pool. Foil-based fins like cruise more than acceleration. What they excel at is clean thrust when water is moving over the blade. This jumped out at me when I was doing kick-kick-glide style swims. The first kick doesn't feel like much - but with the second one there is a surge in acceleration. (you don't feel it though the same way you do with a hyperfin - you've got to watch the bottom of the pool to tell) I think the best dynamic technique with these fins is to maintain speed and minimize effort within that.

These fins are extremely durable: Nothing has come loose, shown signs of wear, developed slop etc. The design is simple and elegant.

Ron is currently refining the Orca design. I will be testing it with a wider blade.
I am also working on more testing of the model with the cycling shoes. I've used it in open water and really liked it (I like both these fins quite a bit for open water diving - they are relaxing and comfortable to swim with and cover distance with deceptive speed). I'm interested to do some side by side comparison between the x-20 and my starfin. The simplicity and versatility of the Shoe arrangement is really appealing for recreational diving.

 

[vali]

From what I saw in the side-by-side move in the #701, I think that : star-fin - dol-fin orca = 1-0 [at least from a DYN point of view]
this is what I guess just looking at you; of course the energy consumption and relaxation with each of them is something that only you can talk about.
your movement are extremely good so the only difference that this short movie gave me is that you covered the same distance in less time with the star-fin...and some of the distance was just gliding

 

[Fondueset]

From what I saw in the side-by-side move in the #701, I think that : star-fin - dol-fin orca = 1-0 [at least from a DYN point of view]
this is what I guess just looking at you; of course the energy consumption and relaxation with each of them is something that only you can talk about.
your movement are extremely good so the only difference that this short movie gave me is that you covered the same distance in less time with the star-fin...and some of the distance was just gliding

Hi Vali. For me it is a challenge between these two. Truly the orca

From what I saw in the side-by-side move in the #701, I think that : star-fin - dol-fin orca = 1-0 [at least from a DYN point of view]
this is what I guess just looking at you; of course the energy consumption and relaxation with each of them is something that only you can talk about.
your movement are extremely good so the only difference that this short movie gave me is that you covered the same distance in less time with the star-fin...and some of the distance was just gliding

Hi Vali,

It was my plan to post the videos and then let people draw their own conclusions - so I am glad you are doing this. As I mentioned - I think the Orca needs just a little more blade - Connor and Eric Fattah both have 32 inch blades on their fins and are very happy. Eric has the Orca and thinks it beats his Chen Bin - so I am waiting to try with a slightly larger blade. The Dol-fin requires very little effort to swim - the sensation is a bit strange after using a hyperfin. To this point I say the effort is 8-10% more - but I think less in open water or a 50 meter pool.

 

[wjohnson100]

Thought I'd lively-up this thread with an executive summary:

The Dol-fin Orca I'm testing now - with the 30-inch blade - is probably on the order of 8%-10% behind my star fin in the pool.
There are two important qualifiers in that statement.

Blade: I've run this same fin with about a 26 inch blade - the performance difference is very noticeable. One of the advantages of this design is you can tweak the blade width with little-to-no drag penalty. Based on the changes I noticed when I put on the larger blade
I think 32 inches will bring at least parity.

Pool: I think the performance difference between the dol-fin Orca and my #3 Starfins will shrink in a longer pool. Foil-based fins like cruise more than acceleration. What they excel at is clean thrust when water is moving over the blade. This jumped out at me when I was doing kick-kick-glide style swims. The first kick doesn't feel like much - but with the second one there is a surge in acceleration. (you don't feel it though the same way you do with a hyperfin - you've got to watch the bottom of the pool to tell) I think the best dynamic technique with these fins is to maintain speed and minimize effort within that.

These fins are extremely durable: Nothing has come loose, shown signs of wear, developed slop etc. The design is simple and elegant.

Ron is currently refining the Orca design. I will be testing it with a wider blade.
I am also working on more testing of the model with the cycling shoes. I've used it in open water and really liked it (I like both these fins quite a bit for open water diving - they are relaxing and comfortable to swim with and cover distance with deceptive speed). I'm interested to do some side by side comparison between the x-20 and my starfin. The simplicity and versatility of the Shoe arrangement is really appealing for recreational diving.

sd

From what I saw in the side-by-side move in the #701, I think that : star-fin - dol-fin orca = 1-0 [at least from a DYN point of view]
this is what I guess just looking at you; of course the energy consumption and relaxation with each of them is something that only you can talk about.
your movement are extremely good so the only difference that this short movie gave me is that you covered the same distance in less time with the star-fin...and some of the distance was just gliding

Better to judge overall efficiency by longer DYN's I think. Look at Natalia's swim here. She is doing about the same distance using the ORCA as with her monofin after only a few hours of training with the ORCA. I think the ORCA is easily comparable.

 

[Fondueset]

sd


Better to judge overall efficiency by longer DYN's I think. Look at Natalia's swim here. She is doing about the same distance using the ORCA as with her monofin after only a few hours of training with the ORCA. I think the ORCA is easily comparable.

I agree completely - however; Natalia is also using the longer blade Blade size makes a huge difference. FYI - in my short swims I use brief intervals between to keep them on the edge and have a good feel for energy expended.

 

[wjohnson100]

Hi Vali. For me it is a challenge between these two. Truly the orca



Hi Vali,

It was my plan to post the videos and then let people draw their own conclusions - so I am glad you are doing this. As I mentioned - I think the Orca needs just a little more blade - Connor and Eric Fattah both have 32 inch blades on their fins and are very happy. Eric has the Orca and thinks it beats his Chen Bin - so I am waiting to try with a slightly larger blade. The Dol-fin requires very little effort to swim - the sensation is a bit strange after using a hyperfin. To this point I say the effort is 8-10% more - but I think less in open water or a 50 meter pool.

I use the 32" blade on the ORCA. Using the X-20 with a shorter blade costs me about 1 kick-kick-glide per 50 meters. I may get Ron to fix me up with a 32" for the X-20 when I get back to the USA. I think that would put the X-20 a bit closer to the ORCA in terms of performance.

 

[wjohnson100]

Had a nightmare last night - somebody bent my ORCA's blade. The good news - it was only a dream.

 

[Fondueset]

Had a nightmare last night - somebody bent my ORCA's blade. The good news - it was only a dream.

Its good to hear your experience confirming mine. The blade width difference was really illuminated for me when I did some vertical dives. For fun - you could just switch the blades out

 

[REVAN]

Its good to hear your experience confirming mine. The blade width difference was really illuminated for me when I did some vertical dives. For fun - you could just switch the blades out

Actually, he can't. The original Orca has a different setup than the X-20. The blades are not compatible or interchangeable. The Orca you have is different and is using X-20 components. I am looking to bring the Orca and the X model inline with more parts commonality between them. As you have noticed with the prototypes you have been using, the fin blades are interchangeable between the different architectures.

 

[wjohnson100]

Actually, he can't. The original Orca has a different setup than the X-20. The blades are not compatible or interchangeable. The Orca you have is different and is using X-20 components. I am looking to bring the Orca and the X model inline with more parts commonality between them. As you have noticed with the prototypes you have been using, the fin blades are interchangeable between the different architectures.

All that is a minor problem for me. My blade packaging for travel can easily fit another long blade. Just a bit of weight sacrifice is all.

 

[Chipswim]

Thanks -It's open source - though to really precisely match the one in the video I suggest bashing the living crap out of your big toe.

What I do, pretty much all the time, is focus on getting the wave going in my spine. The point where the upstroke transitions through the hips, up the spine - rounding the upper back and out the arms and back down as the downstroke is a particular focus for me. There are points where it wants to stall out or go to far - like the low back, knees etc. Finding those and working with the exact right tensions and relaxations at the right times makes it a really interesting form of Yoga for me.

One of the things that really please me about the Dol-fins is that I can still use basically the same technique with them. I'd probably spend at least 4 hours a day doing it if I could.

Beautifully written! Your post is the Mona Lisa of swim descriptions!!

Run your words split screen with your swimming and we have poetry in motion!!!!

 

[Triton1715]

Hi Vali. For me it is a challenge between these two. Truly the orca



Hi Vali,

It was my plan to post the videos and then let people draw their own conclusions - so I am glad you are doing this. As I mentioned - I think the Orca needs just a little more blade - Connor and Eric Fattah both have 32 inch blades on their fins and are very happy. Eric has the Orca and thinks it beats his Chen Bin - so I am waiting to try with a slightly larger blade. The Dol-fin requires very little effort to swim - the sensation is a bit strange after using a hyperfin. To this point I say the effort is 8-10% more - but I think less in open water or a 50 meter pool.

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that although you had more glide with the Starfin, your effort expenditure was less with the Orca. . . so they kind of even out in that respect. Is this correct or did I misunderstand something?

Thanks!

 

[Fondueset]

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that although you had more glide with the Starfin, your effort expenditure was less with the Orca. . . so they kind of even out in that respect. Is this a correct or did I misunderstand something?

Thanks!

Hi Triton. No, the Orca with that blade took a little more effort across the same distance, regardless of technique. It is very close though and I think a slightly wider blade will make a big difference.

 

[vali]

hi Fondueset. In fact that was Triton 1715 who last asked for some clarifying thoughts. But is ok because I also was a little bit unsure of what to believe .
As a bit off-topic: did u have some late photos from Michigan? after I saw your pictures, freediving there was and still is my deepest desire...

 

[Fondueset]

hi Fondueset. In fact that was Triton 1715 who last asked for some clarifying thoughts. But is ok because I also was a little bit unsure of what to believe .
As a bit off-topic: did u have some late photos from Michigan? after I saw your pictures, freediving there was and still is my deepest desire...

Hi Vali, yes, I changed it Here is a picture of Lake Michigan from a few days ago.

 

[Triton1715]

Hi Fondueset,

Thanks for the clarification. Re-reading your comment slightly higher up, I'm not really sure how I got confused. I think I was thrown by comment that the Dolfin requires very little effort to swim and somehow transposed that into the sentence involving 8-10% differences. Sorry, but thanks for clarifying!

Have you had a chance to use the Dolfin in the bay yet or did you receive it once everything was frozen over? Judging by your comments, I assume you haven't had it out there, but curiosity is getting the best of me right now.

 

[Fondueset]

Hi Fondueset,

Thanks for the clarification. Re-reading your comment slightly higher up, I'm not really sure how I got confused. I think I was thrown by comment that the Dolfin requires very little effort to swim and somehow transposed that into the sentence involving 8-10% differences. Sorry, but thanks for clarifying!

Have you had a chance to use the Dolfin in the bay yet or did you receive it once everything was frozen over? Judging by your comments, I assume you haven't had it out there, but curiosity is getting the best of me right now.

Yes, I have had both the Orca and the x-20 out in the bay. If anything they feel better in open water. The Orca with the 26 inch blade felt pretty lame in the vertical once I switched to my 5 mil suit - It seemed to take a lot to get down. (it was fine with my 3 mil) But when I switched out the blades it became very close to my star fin. I really think a wider blade makes all the difference - but changing them gives the opportunity to tune the fins to body size and conditions. Both fins are very nice in open water. I am normally pulling a float and for most of my test dives I had about a 400 meter surface swim - one way against the wind. Once I worked out a few changes to technique I found them very relaxing and efficient to swim with. I would highly recommend either model as an excellent recreational fin - even with the smaller blade (good for travel). The comfort factor even in very cold water is a big plus - as is durability.