FIPSAS: again...

[ThomasB]

It depends on the agreements between the national AIDA and WADA. For example in Czech Republic, Finland, and likely in other countries it does, but there is no global agreement in the same way as CMAS also does not have any global agreement with WADA/IOC about controls out of competitions. This needs to be managed on nantional level, because of differencies in laws of individual countries.

Thanks for clarifying that. I remember having a bit of an argument on some Italian spearfishing forum regarding fipsas vs Aida doping policies and this guy, fipsas guy, prouded himself about the fipsas random test. When asked if they ever tested someone randomly he said no tho.

 

[astradio]

Dear non Italian freedivers ( Goran, Dave, Trux, etc.). It’s not my habit write on such threads, fueling a discussion like this one.
Also, it’s not my goal to start an English discussion with the other Italians writing in this forum (please, avoid it).
My goal is just to heads up you, non Italian freedivers, on the fact that Gabriele & C are not empowered to speak on behalf of the whole freediving community. Lot of people thinks it different. So, dear non Italian freedivers, you had better make your own educated guess before taking for granted those quite a bullshit.
Well, I’ve finished my writer time. I prefer to spend my free time making sport. But, my friends, I suggest you to think it over.
I wish you all the best.
aldo

 

[trux]

... So, dear non Italian freedivers, you had better make your own educated guess before taking for granted those quite a bullshit.

Welcome to DB, Aldo. Could you please tell us what exactly you refer to by "bullshit" in your comment?

If you are coming here in defence of FIPSAS, it would be nice if you explained us your arguments calmly, and told us where exactly we are mistaken. Using inflamatory tone and curse words, works against you and against your cause, so I'd advise rather explaining us your stand calmly and rationally.

Please try re-reading your first-time post here, and think again whether you really wanted to present yourself as a rude person. If it was the prupose of your post to offend all contributors, then it was succesfull, but if you just wanted to tell us that we are wrong in our opinions toward FIPSAS, then you failed completely. Perhaps you could try again, we are rather tolerant here on DB, and are ready to listen to anyone who wants to speak.

 

[ThomasB]

Also, it’s not my goal to start an English discussion with the other Italians writing in this forum (please, avoid it).

Please avoid it? You are asking people to avoid talking on a internet forum? After you just did? Lovely.

My goal is just to heads up you, non Italian freedivers, on the fact that Gabriele & C are not empowered to speak on behalf of the whole freediving community.

They are talking for themselves, as far as i can tell. On the contrary you seem to be talking on behalf of some super natural power entitled to a better opinion than the other.

Lot of people thinks it different.

And they are free to speak their mind on this forum, if you don't mind.

So, dear non Italian freedivers, you had better make your own educated guess before taking for granted those quite a bullshit.

now that's great. First you ask people not to speak and then you call their opinion "bullshit".

Well, I’ve finished my writer time. I prefer to spend my free time making sport.

Thank god.

But, my friends,

If that's your approach, you're not going to make many.

aldo

I'm impressed by your freediving achievement, a bit less by your internet/forum skills.

 

[spaghetti]

Dear non Italian freedivers ( Goran, Dave, Trux, etc.). It’s not my habit write on such threads, fueling a discussion like this one.
Also, it’s not my goal to start an English discussion with the other Italians writing in this forum (please, avoid it).
My goal is just to heads up you, non Italian freedivers, on the fact that Gabriele & C are not empowered to speak on behalf of the whole freediving community. Lot of people thinks it different. So, dear non Italian freedivers, you had better make your own educated guess before taking for granted those quite a bullshit.
Well, I’ve finished my writer time. I prefer to spend my free time making sport. But, my friends, I suggest you to think it over.
I wish you all the best.
aldo

From moderators.

Astradio,
this anti-social behaviour is not the correct approach to the Deeperblue community.
Anyone else would have been banned for a first post like yours.
But the guys here are telling us they're interested to hear more from you as a FIPSAS competitive freediver.
So feel free to contribute, but keep fair and clean. Please.

 

[trux]

Yes, I asked Spaghetti not to ban Aldo for his offensive post, as he intended, because I really would like to know what argument Aldo has that justifies the disqualification of non-FIPSAS freedivers from competitions. I really would like to know what reason is behind it, and how someone can advocate such discriminative behavior that would not be tolerated in any democratic society.

Imagine for example the operator of public transport in your city refusing that you board their busses during 6 months, because you drove by a car (or walked) last week! That's plain ridiculous, but it is exactly what FIPSAS does - they simply abuse their (quasi) monopoly.

I have absolutely nothing against FIPSAS athletes, and understand if they do not want to compete with AIDA athletes (never mind their reasons), but really do not understand why they can't play fair, and why they abuse their stronger position, and try to liquidate AIDA. As if everybody could not live nicely together. Their neighbor, France, could serve them as example, that the peaceful cooperation between both organizations is possible and profitable for both parties, and especially for the freediving community in general.

 

[astradio]

what a heads up!

I apologize for my word bullshit. Sorry for that guys. Next time I'll use **** like other people on this forum.

Moving forward, I've not to defend FIPSAS since I think that FIPSAS doesn't need any defence.
FIPSAS is applying CMAS and CIO rules that every associated freediver has signed off.

If those rules would be changed in the future, we all will be happy. Up to that we cannot complain if we will be punished if we break that rules.

Very, very simple. don't you think?

BR

 

[astradio]

Doesn't the "F" in the abbreviation FIPSAS come from "Fascist"?

I might be a poor internet skilled guy, but I'm really surprised to have not seen a reaction from the moderator on a statement like this one, Ivo.
It's strange to me see your over reaction on my statement: don't you consider offensive and aggressive this comment on FIPSAS?

 

[trux]

Aldo, I believe that my use of the word "Fascist" fully corresponded to the manners FIPSAS behaved. As an Italian you certainly know very well the meaning of the term. The encyclopedic definition of fascism is "authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice", and that is exactly what FIPSAS does by abusing their position and trying to liqudate AIDA by disqualifying their athletes, don't you agree? It is only a vey big luck that the new president of CMAS has a different opinion and invalidated this earlier discriminative rule, so that now FIPSAS stands isolated with their unfair practices.

 

[Mullins]

FIPSAS is applying CMAS and CIO rules that every associated freediver has signed off.

Even assuming it is the fault of CMAS and that FIPSAS was forced into this position as a subsidiary, that doesn't change the fact amateur athletes are being discriminated against for political reasons. It is a ridiculous position for an amateur sporting organisation to take. "Fascism", while it carries some nasty historical overtones that go well beyond these petty quasi-legal fisticuffs, is technically the right word to use. Please feel free to justify it for us though.

 

[trux]

FIPSAS is applying CMAS and CIO rules that every associated freediver has signed off.

This is actually not at all true! This is just a completely false and invalid apology of the discriminative behavior of FIPSAS.

First of all, CMAS never had a rule forbidding the participation of non-CMAS athletes on national CMAS competitions. The ban was to be applied just and only to CMAS Championships!

And then, the rule about banning non-CMAS athletes from CMAS Championships was effectively invalidated by the decision of the Board of Directors fo the CMAS Apnea Commision on the 27th November 2010:

6. For the questions about the banning of the athletes who attends to the non-CMAS events I have got a clear answer from my president Mr DURAN SOLER as;

• The National Federation decides which athletes can to participate in the CMAS Apnoea Championships.
• The athletes have to be affiliated in a club of this National Federation.
• CMAS only will check if the current license is valid

It means FIPSAS never could have been punished for permitting AIDA competitors at FIPSA competitions, and since November 2010 it can even send AIDA competitors to CMAS Championships.

 

[sgnips]

Thanks guys, you're all kind people and always know what to say

Aldo, you can find the italian version of the letter, which may not suffer from translation misunderstandings: the fact i am talking for myself is quite clear
Also, i never pretended to speak for the whole freediving community, but you see it the whole community is actually involved, no matter if you're happy to compete in this situation or not

Please feel free to contact me if you feel wrong for something i did or wrote

 

[astradio]

Let's change sight of line.
CMAS-FIPSAS is one dimension we are discussing on. CIO-CONI and CONI-FIPSAS are other two dimensions we have to consider.
That makes the set of rules very complex, probably also for you guys that seems to be very knowledgeable on this matter. And that set of rules is the base of the synergy that all the competition disciplines in Italy leverage in order to globally succeed, not only in the apnea. So things are more complicated than they appear.

Of course I would foresee a future without barrier, but that's not the condition today. Since we discussed about democracy, fascism, etc. (may be too big words for apnea), there are ways to change the rules on the right tables with the right people. I trust CMAS and AIDA management people to find out the right way, sooner o later. Meanwhile I respect the rules. That's my idea of democracy. Breaking rules, at least to me, sounds like anarchy, and I don't think that's the right way to change things. And that's my idea on the style people should apply to change and evolve.

If you want my feedback on what is doing FIPSAS in Italy, I can also provide that. First of all you have to know that I'm a PSS freediver instructor, subscribed to Apnea Academy forum, subscribed on Deeper Blue (at least until you ban meJ) and competing in the FIPSAS-CMAS org: that means that I am agnostic.
Thanks to FIPSAS, I have found a structure to compete in more than 20 competitions per year in Italy with a very limited money expense. Judgment staff are very competent even if they are not paid, and the same is for the major of the FIPSAS staff. Trainers, athletes, judges have high apnea skills and I have learnt a lot in the last two years from them. This is all about passion and competence, at least as in the other organizations.

Of course there are working in progress to improve. But, along this journey, I don't see any finger pointing attitude in any of the FIPSAS communication against other organizations. That's not exactly the same in this forum unfortunately. And if you read carefully the different threads there are also quite offensive statements against FIPSAS.

Coming back to the athletes behavior, if a person thinks that FIPSAS rules are currently too conservative and he doesn’t want wait for an agreement between FIPSAS and AIDA to free up all of us in sharing competitions, there is always the option to leave from FIPSAS and fully join AIDA.
What is making me nervous is the old-fashion attitude of some of us (Italian) to not respect the rules and complain to be punished (that’s gonna change at social cultural level now), and, sorry to tell you that, the attitude of foreign people to underestimate the value of something that very likely you don’t know very well, granted (coming back to my first post) a single point of view.

That said, you can ban me, you can send back and forth posts against my point of view for ages. But now you know that there are people that think it differently on FIPSAS and love apnea at least like you. And I think that this is a value that I’m providing to you and to the rest of the freediver community: diversity…..

aldo

J

 

[trux]

Nice post, Aldo. Nobody denies here the role FIPSAS plays in freediving in Italy. If you go back through the thread, and through my posts about FIPSAS in other threads, you can see that I often give many positive examples from FIPSAS. Their xenophobe views toward all non-FIPSAS freedivers is the only aspect that really disturbs me.

You speak about diversity - unfortunately diversity is not what FIPSAS promotes. If they disqualify any competitors who participate on non-FIPSAS competitions, we cannot speak about any diversity. It is protecting of their monopoly, no diversity. And I think that demonstratively protesting against the illogic rules by violating them, is certainly more efficient than waiting till FIPSAS management changes it from their own will. There is no way they'll do it, unless someone presses them. And since due to their ban, there are practically no AIDA competitors and no AIDA competitions in Italy, it is actually not very likely FIPSAS athletes would start demanding a change. Except of very few individuals whose voice won't be heard. Finally I know Italian (as well as foreign) freedivers protested against the rule already in the past, and nothing changed. So unless the management changes their opinion, I see boycotting this stupid rule as a very valid option for creating some pressure on them.

Of course, the best would be if AIDA and FIPSAS management sat together to a table, and if FIPSAS explained their reasons for banning AIDA athletes, and learned more about the policies of AIDA. I do not believe that there is any real reason for banning AIDA, but if there is any, FIPSAS should disclose it, giving AIDA chance to work on a change. However, from the violent reaction I observed from FIPSAS each time someone mentions AIDA in front of them, I am afraid they are not really interested in a dialogue. Then indeed the anarchy (I would rather call it civil disobeyance) is the only remaining option.

 

[spaghetti]

....there are ways to change the rules on the right tables with the right people. I trust CMAS and AIDA management people to find out the right way, sooner o later. Meanwhile I respect the rules. That's my idea of democracy. Breaking rules, at least to me, sounds like anarchy, and I don't think that's the right way to change things.
(...)What is making me nervous is the old-fashion attitude of some of us (Italian) to not respect the rules and complain to be punished

Aldo, don't be so sure you will be banned.
Your first post sounded indeed like a troll's job, but you're getting better at it. And it's a good thing for DB to have a FIPSAS competitive freediver sharing different experience and points of view. You're welcome.

This said, on a very conceptual standpoint, I beg to disagree with your above idea about how rules may be changed.

Do you really think it's "let's all stay quiet and do nothing, until those in command decide it's time to change"? You surely know it never worked that way.

In the legislative process there is always a double conductivity between the powers who set the rules (and tend to keep them as they are) and the society of persons who are subjected to the rules (and tend to push for them to change as the society itself changes).

The first step of this process is often traumatic, with episodes of "anarchy" (or civil disobedience) from one side, and repression (or stricter enforcement) from the other. But this is how human society evolves. Examples would be countless.

Not a lesson, just a consistent point of discussion. I'm not a competitive freediver. Just moderating this mess of a forum.

 

[astradio]

Aldo, don't be so sure you will be banned.
Your first post sounded indeed like a troll's job, but you're getting better at it. And it's a good thing for DB to have a FIPSAS competitive freediver sharing different experience and points of view. You're welcome.

Somebody told me that to start changes, sometimes rules need to be broken. So I did starting the discussion outside DB forum guidance. :martial

Happy now to be more constructive and politically correct. :blackeye

Ivo, I'll be in Prague from 23st and 27th of January. We might meet us for a beer.... and I share with you some additional thoughts of mine that you might find very interesting.

Hope to see you soon.

aldo

 

[trux]

Hi Aldo, I am righ now in Lyon. I plan going soon to Prague for 2-3 weeks again, but am not yet quite sure whether I'll be there already in that time. If yes, it will be pleasure to meet you. If not, be sure to come to the Apnea Academy center in Prague and visit Martin Zajac there.

PS: if you need help with accomodation in Prague, let me know.

 

[ThomasB]

Somebody told me that to start changes, sometimes rules need to be broken. So I did starting the discussion outside DB forum guidance. :martial

aldo

Well played

 

[sgnips]

Hi Aldo,
i’m very glad you decided to give some real contribution to the discussion, despite your impulsive and content-empty beginning
Also, please don’t confuse the term Trux used “fascist” with the dense meaning we italians are used to: he surely wanted to use it in a literal way and I won’t blame him (from the Collins dictionary: If you refer to someone as a fascist, you are expressing disapproval of the fact that they have extreme views on something and do not tolerate alternative views)

I’d like to specify that my letter to Fipsas has never had the intention to figure out anarchy, nor disobeyence of any kind
Me and others DO PRETEND, as Trux smartly noticed, to know the reasons behind the rule they are applying and the reason why they are still applying it even if almost everyone abroad did remove it and this for the simple fact that this reasons are not mentioned in any document, nor Fipsas want to disclose them

What is making me nervous is the old-fashion attitude of some of us (Italian) to not respect the rules and complain to be punished (that’s gonna change at social cultural level now), and, sorry to tell you that, the attitude of foreign people to underestimate the value of something that very likely you don’t know very well, granted (coming back to my first post) a single point of view.

I personally NEVER said I wanted my sanctions to be removed or revised, nor I ever will, nor i complained about the sanctions i received/am receiving :rcard
More, I don’t mind receiving excuses from Fipsas, I’m not interested in that at all
Please don't call me Italian as a person who complains: i'm that kind of man and i belong to a different Italian style

I said I don’t call for freediving anarchy, nor disobeyence of any kind in Italy
This year I realize I won’t be able to attend any Fipsas comp and I’m very sad about it
In 2012 I’ll spend some time in reorganizing, with some friends, the Aida Italy association, and hope many will follow us
If this will be a break in the actual rules and bring some change, we'll know we have done a good job but this is not anarchy, it’s not disobeyence: it’s just a choice because we don’t like this specific Fipsas rule and think it should be deleted, so we act like it doesn’t exist but I am aware of the consequences and accept them

 

[ThomasB]

Me and others DO PRETEND, as Trux smartly noticed, to know the reasons behind t

I'm sorry to be a grammar nazi here (see what i did ) but it's for the right reason. PRETEND is a false friend for italians because "pretendere" actually means "to expect", which gives way more sense to Sgnips sentence

:girlie