FIPSAS: again...

[giorgiob]

Dear All,

talking again, as Aldo did, for the not Italian freedivers, just to help them to better understand.
As far as I know in Italy, for law, CONI (Italian IOC) gives to each national federation the role to organize and regulate the competition for each discipline. For freediving this national federation is FIPSAS that up today manages more then 30 official competitions per year with hundreds of active athletes.
Until the low (be careful, low not rule of FIPSAS or CMAS), until the law is not changed, AIDA or any other organization that wants to organize freediving competitions in Italy should get approval from FIPSAS. And if the competition is approved, FIPSAS athletes can compete without any problem.
This could be unfair, not right, but this is the law. If in France FFESSM has good relationships with AIDA that’s very good, for FFESSM and for French freedivers, hopefully this is the best way, and hopefully this will be made also in Italy sooner or later.
According to what I know, the sport regulations in Europe give the same indications: 1 national federation for each discipline, and in some countries the role of the federation can be regulated by national legislation (as in Italy).
Maybe, but of course I don’t know, in some countries there is not a national federation officially deputed to regulate freediving and that’s maybe why they are so free (in all meanings J) and maybe for them is difficult to understand what’s happening in Italy.
Again this is not an opinion if this is right or not, my personal opinion is that FIPSAS should make his role of regulation that has for low being available to find agreements and not punishing his athletes, that a national federation should protect and not punish. But it’s clear to all that in Italy that if AIDA Italy or any other organization wants to organize freediving competitions must ask to FIPSAS and I don’t know it this has bean made in advance, this also in order to avoid punishments to the athletes that competed in these competitions.
Again, as Trux said, the best would be if AIDA and FIPSAS management sit together to a table, and as you all I really hope this would be made as soon as possible in order to stop these “political” fights very difficult to understand and that damages the athletes.
Best regards to all,
Giorgio

 

[michelefucarino]

Hi all!!!

I completely agree with giorgiob.
I think he described quite clearly the situation. I would add that as competitor, I'm very happy about the situation we have in Italy with so many competitions per season, good level athletes and judges. I think that dispite what someone could say, FIPSAS did really a lot of things to contribute the development of freediving during the last years. Of course there are always points to be improoved, but as Aldo says, there really is the opportunity to do it in a fairy way..
Gabriele, you mentioned something about boycotting doping tests in your letter.. could you explain me what really happened during the world championship about that?

Miki

 

[trux]

I think he described quite clearly the situation. I would add that as competitor, I'm very happy about the situation we have in Italy with so many competitions per season, good level athletes and judges. I think that dispite what someone could say, FIPSAS did really a lot of things to contribute the development of freediving during the last years.

I am a very regular resident of Deeper Blue and read practically all freediving threads here, but unlike what Aldo wrote, I do not remember ever seeing someone posting anything critical about FIPSAS, other than their unfair discriminatory behavior towards AIDA. I know very well what FIPSAS does for the development of freediving in Italy. But that's not at all the topic of this thread. This discussion is exclusively only about their inexcusable discriminative rules. Being a good guy in common life also does not give you the right to behave like the last jerk when you go to the bar, or does it? In the same way, the positive role of FIPSAS in Italian freediving is absolutely no excuse for their unfair acts.

As far as I know in Italy, for law, CONI (Italian IOC) gives to each national federation the role to organize and regulate the competition for each discipline....

The very same system works in France, as well as probably in most other European countries. Yet, only FIPSAS behaves in this xenophobe and discriminative way. And the same law is applied also at hundreds of other sport associations in Italy, yet I'd like to know whether there is any other who would try to liquidate their smaller alternative rivals by banning their athletes from their events.

The law gives FIPSAS absolutely no obligation, no right, and no excuse for banning athletes who participated on a non-FIPSAS competition. Besides it, the World Championship was an international competition under the sanction of AIDA International who is not regulated by Italian laws. OK, this last WC was in Italy, but FIPSAS would disqualify the athletes even if it were elsewhere. Can you point me to the law that says FIPSAS may or must discriminate athletes of other established international federations? It does not exist. So all this is just a false alibistic apology. The real problem is not the law, it is just and only the unreasonable and deliberate intolerance at FIPSAS management, with the only purpose to eradicate AIDA or any other rival.

First Aldo tried shifting the guilt to the CMAS, and now when we proved it was an absolutely invalid argument, you try shifting the guilt to the government. How childish! Either FIPSAS has a good reason for the discrimination and then they should disclose it and face the critics, or stop it. Pointing the finger to others does not work with us.

Ivo

 

[sgnips]

Hi Michele, hi Giorgio and thanks for coming in, I really appreciate

@Michele
I know Alessandro Vergendo (for who don’t know this guy, he’s the Europe Evolution Cup organizer in Lignano) asked the federal antidoping to hold the tests during the world championships, even though Aid International just provided their usual solution (Wada, I guess): he wanted to double cover this important event
It seems like Fipsas did its best not make the antidoping hold the tests required

@Giorgio
I actually don’t know if the law you mention does exist or not, but thet’s not a problem
I’ll never get tired to repeat that we’re asking Fipsas to motivate this particular rule: if the reason is an active law, they can simply show it up and we’ll stop any other complain, but since nobody has ever said a clear word, we’ll go on and on this way
Also, if a law does exist, why didn’t they used it to stop the Aida world championships? Or the previous EEC editions? Both these events have been held unders the auspices of Libertas, which is affiliated to Coni… maybe Libertas should have (and surely could have) stopped the projects from the beginning… but they didn’t…
Again: mr Gianluca Genoni organizes every year (I guess 2012 will be the 3rd or 4th edition) a “PSS Trophy” and as far as I know nobody ever told him he could not… why?
My opinion: such a law does not exist, and I don’t have time nor competence to search for it
I leave you with one more comment: my complaints are not about the opportunity/possibility to ORGANIZE “non Fipsas competitions”, but to ATTEND “non Fipsas competitions”, a thing that is actually forbidden (and unfair, and “fascist” if you want and so on), so Giorgio, your comments are a bit out of topic

 

[michelefucarino]

I am a very regular resident of Deeper Blue and read practically all freediving threads here, but unlike what Aldo wrote, I do not remember ever seeing someone posting anything critical about FIPSAS, other than their unfair discriminatory behavior towards AIDA. I know very well what FIPSAS does for the development of freediving in Italy. But that's not at all the topic of this thread. This discussion is exclusively only about their inexcusable discriminative rules. Being a good guy in common life also does not give you the right to behave like the last jerk when you go to the bar, or does it? In the same way, the positive role of FIPSAS in Italian freediving is absolutely no excuse for their unfair acts.


The very same system works in France, as well as probably in most other European countries. Yet, only FIPSAS behaves in this xenophobe and discriminative way. And the same law is applied also at hundreds of other sport associations in Italy, yet I'd like to know whether there is any other who would try to liquidate their smaller alternative rivals by banning their athletes from their events.

The law gives FIPSAS absolutely no obligation, no right, and no excuse for banning athletes who participated on a non-FIPSAS competition. Besides it, the World Championship was an international competition under the sanction of AIDA International who is not regulated by Italian laws. OK, this last WC was in Italy, but FIPSAS would disqualify the athletes even if it were elsewhere. Can you point me to the law that says FIPSAS may or must discriminate athletes of other established international federations? It does not exist. So all this is just a false alibistic apology. The real problem is not the law, it is just and only the unreasonable and deliberate intolerance at FIPSAS management, with the only purpose to eradicate AIDA or any other rival.

First Aldo tried shifting the guilt to the CMAS, and now when we proved it was an absolutely invalid argument, you try shifting the guilt to the government. How childish!


Ivo

Hey Ivo why are you offending me?:martial
I am not sayng you or other people are childish just because you have a different opinion than mine!

Please remember I am not talking in the name of FIPSAS; AIDA; PSS or what else this is just my "part of reality" and nobody is pointing fingers in strange places


Since in the original letter that Gabriele posted, he says about FIPSAS: "got rid of every bit of reserve on your ability to manage apnea Italian sports:"..I felt free to say that this is not also my opinion.


For what concern banning the athlets: this is not nice and I would also prefere them to change that rule, but I used to compete in ski for many years..and the situation was the same. As athlete you can participate only to events approved by your federation..


I would also like to compete in AIDA events, especially for depth, but finally I think this target can by reached only by an agreement between "the vertices" and and I don't know if both ever tryed to find one..?

 

[trux]

Sorry, Michele, I did not want to offend you. My remark was pointed towards FIPSAS - it should not need apologetic arguments that the ban is required by CMAS (false) or by the law (false), when in fact it is completely deliberate and one-sided, coming for no other reasons than the eradication of a rival organization. I call it childish because it is as if you caught a child at some mischief, and he pointed his finger to a friend telling "he made me doing it"! All those arguments posted here are as false and as foolish. I am sorry if it sounds offending, but I did not find a better way to express my opinion.

 

[rddk]

Ok was lot of time that i wasn't spamming here in DB, but this post is really interesting so i decided to stop waching porn videos and give
my 1 cent contribution and arguments as a noob that study law.

1.6 La F.I.P.S.A.S. persegue i propri scopi e svolge la propria attività sportiva in armonia con le
deliberazioni del C.I.O. e del C.O.N.I., anche in considerazione della valenza pubblicistica di
specifiche tipologie di attività individuate nello Statuto del C.O.N.I., oltre che della
Confédération Internationale de la Pêche Sportive (C.I.P.S.) e della Confédération Mondiale
des Activités Subaquatiques (C.M.A.S.) delle quali è membro fondatore purché le
deliberazioni di questi ultimi non siano in contrasto con le deliberazioni e gli indirizzi del
C.I.O. e del C.O.N.I..
2.1 La F.I.P.S.A.S., in quanto soggetto riconosciuto dal C.O.N.I., ha per scopo la promozione, la
regolamentazione e l’organizzazione delle proprie discipline sportive, oltre che lo
svolgimento, a livello nazionale ed internazionale della attività agonistica a livello
dilettantistico, relativa alle discipline indicate al precedente art. 1.
2.6 In tale quadro la F.I.P.S.A.S. promuove, inoltre, tra tutti i cittadini, la costituzione di forme
associative, ai fini della partecipazione all’attività sportiva da parte di chiunque, in condizione
di uguaglianza e pari opportunità.

Those are 3 articles of fipsas statue i'll translate them in english in they're meaning and in 3 words.
1.6 fipsas follow coni and cio rules but also cmas and cips deliberations and rules unles they're against conio o cio rules/deliberations
(this could be only enough to destroy fipsas behaviour since the 27th november cmas deliberation)
2.1 and 2.6 must be read mixed or combined. Infact since fipsas in recognized by coni and follow his rules one of his main goals is
to PROMOTE SPORT! (Umbelivable!!!!) infact 2.6. fipsas promote, equalty for any noob, for allow him to partecipate at any sport activity.
This mean promote sport and not do not allow your athles to make sport or non fipsas competition.
Last but not least fipsas has send lot of santa claus letters to his athles and some email saying: if you do aida competition
you will be banned (the year before they have said: we'll send professional killers to shot at your legs if you only say aida competitions)
Ok next funny thing is that they have send some letters saying: dear athles we do not allow you to make aida competition for your integrity
and even for our federation integrity. So nice, infact they care so much about they're athlets that they do not pay them even 1 cent and also
mean that in aida competition you do lot of dangerous stuff (don't go and play with this doped!)(they will make you die!!!)
Btw the reality is that they dun wanna loose people and money and think that they're god, they're like don chisciotte fighting against windmill,
or searching the witch to burn. All of this things are so sad infact we had only 3 italians competiting in aida WC when they were in italy,
they talk about integrity and lot of noble things but they're cause isn't at all noble, they don't pay atleths and usually you're
called professional freediver when you get dirty money for your job, here you only have a hard kick in your ass.

That's my noob opinion.

 

[sgnips]

2 hours on skype with Fabrizio last night... absolutely worth the time spent!!!

 

[astradio]

2 hours on skype with Fabrizio last night... absolutely worth the time spent!!!

Ah. Ok. Two hours of Skype with you. Now I understand....

 

[rddk]

Ah. Ok. Two hours of Skype with you. Now I understand....

Yep i must say that i currently gave some suggestion to my friends in what they must answer to fipsas when send some letters or mails to his athlets, since i've started this year in doing competitions cuz i was against fipsas/cmas policy about banning people from competiting with other federations, but when i've read the 27th november cmas comunication i thinked oh yep i usually dun belive in god but today he gave me a sign!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX5tfRdkoY0]Do you see the light.m4v - YouTube[/ame]
but the reality was a bit different from theory as usual since we're in italy.
Btw aldo i'm so surprised abut some things you say i mean ok you're happy in doing your 20 pool competition at year but what about outdoor stuff? Maybe not everybody are happy in clorathe water and maybe prefer that thing called sea or some masochist lake (so dark and cold) and instead if going back and foward like to go up and down (like when you do sex ahahahah) and fipsas is not able to garantee 20 outdoor competition cuz you have really heavy saefty conditions, scuba diver every 10 meters, when in aida you can use the magic counterbalance system or other funny stuff that gave lot of saefty and poor cost, but... wait.... hell no!!!! why making things so easy!!! the truth is that i can't udestand athlets like you that don't get paid by fipsas and still take iit's flag like is a war between 2 factions. I dun like politics and atm is what we're talking about cuz iin my opinion the most important thing in a sport is to make it! There's a new federation? It makes competition? I see this thing like water in the desert cuz i'll have more occasion to do what i love and for what i hardly training. Lot of us sacrifice and dedicate passion and time to this beautiful sport sometimes we prefer a shity pool or go to the sea rather than stay with our family, wife, girlfriend, dog, cat, bird choose what you like... is our free choiche but the fact is that we just wanna have fun and do competitions no matter the flag that own it.
always a noob talking

 

[rddk]

Oh one thing that is sure like my name is fabrizio, i'll do any competition i would like, fipsas or not, and if i'll have a letter prepare yourself in a law battle, i have lot of spare time and since i dun have to pay a lawyer it will cost me nothing for ya i dunno, and it's not a menace but a fact.

 

[astradio]

Hi Aldo, I am righ now in Lyon. I plan going soon to Prague for 2-3 weeks again, but am not yet quite sure whether I'll be there already in that time. If yes, it will be pleasure to meet you. If not, be sure to come to the Apnea Academy center in Prague and visit Martin Zajac there.

PS: if you need help with accomodation in Prague, let me know.

Hi Ivo,

my trip has been confirmed.

January 23-27th, 2012

Event Location
Hilton Prague
Pobrezni 1,
Prague 186 00
Czech Republic


This kind of boring events are usually a challenge for the agenda point of view, but we might have the time for a couple of beers. Hope to see you there, if you will come back in Prague.

Feel free to call me on my phone is +39 348 8513848

cheers
aldo

 

[astradio]

Yep i must say that i currently gave some suggestion to my friends in what they must answer to fipsas when send some letters or mails to his athlets, since i've started this year in doing competitions cuz i was against fipsas/cmas policy about banning people from competiting with other federations, but when i've read the 27th november cmas comunication i thinked oh yep i usually dun belive in god but today he gave me a sign!
Do you see the light.m4v - YouTube
but the reality was a bit different from theory as usual since we're in italy.
Btw aldo i'm so surprised abut some things you say i mean ok you're happy in doing your 20 pool competition at year but what about outdoor stuff? Maybe not everybody are happy in clorathe water and maybe prefer that thing called sea or some masochist lake (so dark and cold) and instead if going back and foward like to go up and down (like when you do sex ahahahah) and fipsas is not able to garantee 20 outdoor competition cuz you have really heavy saefty conditions, scuba diver every 10 meters, when in aida you can use the magic counterbalance system or other funny stuff that gave lot of saefty and poor cost, but... wait.... hell no!!!! why making things so easy!!! the truth is that i can't udestand athlets like you that don't get paid by fipsas and still take iit's flag like is a war between 2 factions. I dun like politics and atm is what we're talking about cuz iin my opinion the most important thing in a sport is to make it! There's a new federation? It makes competition? I see this thing like water in the desert cuz i'll have more occasion to do what i love and for what i hardly training. Lot of us sacrifice and dedicate passion and time to this beautiful sport sometimes we prefer a shity pool or go to the sea rather than stay with our family, wife, girlfriend, dog, cat, bird choose what you like... is our free choiche but the fact is that we just wanna have fun and do competitions no matter the flag that own it.
always a noob talking

Good topic freediving in the sea. My current activity in the sea is not at the level I would like it. Not enough time to go there since I'm a city freediver. I use to spent my summer holiday in long spearfishing days and I have a selfmade counterbalance system loaded on my small boat. But still not enough time to go to the see :duh.
Although I have to learn a lot in constant weight, I really would like to start some low level constant weight competition.
Synergy between AIDA and FIPSAS could for sure facilitate that.

Coming back to our funny discussion. I think that, since there are two different opinions in the way the freediving community is seeing to the FIPSAS-AIDA issue, I don’t think that our effort to clarify facts on this forum could be worthwhile.
Since I trust laws, if there is somebody that will start a legal trial on those facts, I will pay some attention to see what will be the final conclusion of the past events.

However my drivers are more related on improvement for the future. I really hope that, beside the nasty outstanding opinions posted here, AIDA and FIPSAS management will start a more constructive discussion to find the right interlock. That for sure is in line with the expectations of the agnostic freedivers like me. Despite this should be quite a common goal, I have some doubts on the real objectives of somebody and his secret agenda. I might be wrong but I feel in this long discussion drivers more related to personal and commercial interests. But I’m sure I’m wrong and, at the end, facts will demonstrate the good faith of everybody.

 

[trux]

my trip has been confirmed.

OK, I took a note. My travel is not yet scheduled, but if I am in Prague in that time, I'll gladly ring you up.

... I have some doubts on the real objectives of somebody and his secret agenda.

I am not sure about secret agenda, I'd rather tell that the animosity between the organisations is perhaps driven by personal emotions, and is not that much based rationally. Though it is possible that the protection of the FIPSAS monopoly is behind it too.

Anyway, I may be wrong, but I had the occassion to see some communication (on other topics than this) from both, the AIDA Italy, and from FIPSAS, and have the feeling that both managements are not far from the cliché of a typical Italian who goes easily emotional, so am afraid that we cannot expect that they will find a common way without some independent wise, calm, and pragmatic person who will bring them to discuss together and will moderate their emotions. Anyone among you who could try it, or who would know about a person respected by both sides? Perhaps Umberto? Or Enzo? Or one of the current Italian record holders? Can't you try contacting such a personality and ask them to moderate the discussion between AIDA and FIPSAS? I think none of the organisations is capable or willing to initiate the discussion, so they do need the external help, as well as they need the pubic pressure from freedivers.

BTW, I have a question regarding the disqualifications: the original old CMAS rule only disqulified an athlet from the same discipline where he competed in a non-CMAS competition. So for example many freedivers (i.e. Goran Colak) competed in STA and DNF and in depth disciplines in AIDA competitions, and they did DYN only under CMAS without risking any disqualification. Does it work in the same way in FIPSAS, or do they disqualify the competitors from all events globally for their appearance in any AIDA competition, regardless of disciplines? I have the impression than the second was the case, but I may be wrong. If so, then it looks like FIPSAS goes again much farther than CMAS ever went.

 

[rddk]

Does it work in the same way in FIPSAS, or do they disqualify the competitors from all events globally for their appearance in any AIDA competition, regardless of disciplines? I have the impression than the second was the case, but I may be wrong. If so, then it looks like FIPSAS goes again much farther than CMAS ever went.

Trux Corrado Guzzanti is an italian comedian is famous for his phrase: the second you have said!
What make me laugh is that as usual aldo and other fipsas people first say one thing than when you take facts they change arguments. Fipsas is just doing an anti aida policy that's all, the fact is one: gabriele has been banned from fipsas cuz he did an aida comp. in switzerland even if on rules is written that the law has to be applied only in italian ground. (so strange...)
They ban you not caring about the discpline or what, also if you do apnea academt italian tour that is made for freediving students they ban ya as well, consiider that it has to be considered as an excuse to see all of us apnea academy family to joke and have nice time, infact you get yellow card if you do hyperventilation or you quit your dive not perfectly clean so is somthing that you cvan't compare to a real freediving competition but more like a meeting.
Last but not least Aida WC 2011 has been done under aida name, but the fact iis that apnea academy organized them for lot of aspects, fipsas will not listen umberto, enzo, not even jesus crist, why? Cuz they think they have the TRUTH, they can do anything and apnea academy kill fipsas freediving didactics cuz iis shit compared to anyone else. Belive me is so sad seeing people that made the first level go with a sled to 11 metres cuz is the max dept you can do, or people that aren't able to do a decent dnf dive, go to any iitalian forum and ask: i'm a noob wich freediving course do you suggest me. 100% answer will say Apnea Academy.
The other point is that fpsas has some people that hate apnea academy and umberto too cuz they had some discussion, you know it burn a lot your azz if your female world champion is 100% followed by apnea academy people is an AA instructor. I can make thousand of this example but they will still say that jesus crist is died for cold and not cuz was crucified.

 

[sgnips]

Ah. Ok. Two hours of Skype with you. Now I understand....

thank god (or anyone else above there) you did understand... understand what? would be nice to share

 

[rddk]

Gabri don't worry he didn't see the light!!!

 

[astradio]

Can't you try contacting such a personality and ask them to moderate the discussion between AIDA and FIPSAS? I think none of the organisations is capable or willing to initiate the discussion, so they do need the external help, as well as they need the pubic pressure from freedivers.

I will

 

[astradio]

Gabri don't worry he didn't see the light!!!

come on....zzz

 

[sgnips]

I have some doubts on the real objectives of somebody and his secret agenda. I might be wrong but I feel in this long discussion drivers more related to personal and commercial interests. But I’m sure I’m wrong and, at the end, facts will demonstrate the good faith of everybody.

does "somebody" refer to me, Tommaso and Gaspare?
and you feel "personal and commercial interests"... interesting indeed... i'm not a top freedivers, i can't aim to get into the national team like you, i'll never ever get any sponsor... interesting feeling
the same applies to Tommaso, a better freediver than me (except for static ) and to Gaspare who, despite his national, continental and world championships won, never saw a buck from anyone
you're actually wrong and you know you are, if you're referring to us
as for the good faith, i guess Fabrizio has easily demonstrated the only lack is that from Fipsas running against its own rules

come on....zzz

wake up Aldo, it's time to have a serious look around
and don't get bad about our jokes, we're all friends because we're freedivers, and be sure there will always be a place for you too in Aida Italy :wave