• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Flying Underwater, A Blast From The Past

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
'two hydrofoils moving in opposite directions '

Not sure if it is important or even true but it feels very different. The rear foil always points at the centre of the front foil. The front foil is free to swivel restricted of course by the bungee which can be adjusted for 'fin stiffness'. If my long term memory can be trusted, it feels like your feet are anchored in place and your body hardly bends. This can't be because when the front foil starts up the rear must go the same direction but the delay forces the undulation with no input from the swimmer. It becomes obvious when you try to wear fins too. The efficiency seems to go way down.

Your body moves sparingly above the waist particularly once you are up to minimum cruising speed with the Aqueon. Your legs move slightly with the majority of the displacement being described by the kneel and foils. The effective kneel or moment arm length is adjustable, slightly, on the current unit with two "settings" based upon where you bolt the leg mounting assembly. It would be nice to have an incremental moment arm adjustment on a newer version. This would help to adjust stroke period and effective amplitude for different physiques and characteristics for a given session.
 
Ricki,

Check your pms

Connor

Just got back and will respond to your PM's soon. Had some interesting shallow water sessions with it. There is some still and video imagery inside and around the Wreck of the Sapona that is pretty intriguing, stay tuned for that.

Unfortunately, I missed out on a deep water session with the Aqueon. Spent too much time looking for a purported sinkhole with an intact roof that was described in the '70's off Cat Cay. I think the horizontal access crevice, perhaps two feet high may have been closed off by sand in filling in the hurricanes. Did have a chance to drop down to the rampart of the Wall around the "Graveyard" a couple of times quickly on the way back to the dock in Bimini using fins. If I had more time out there it would have been fun to rig the device for vertical descent and see how fast it might take you down, oh and up again too after resetting it!
 
Last edited:
On the inverted question, competitive freestyle swimmers have discovered that they are faster underwater, dolphin kicking, inverted. Once this became widespread, the rules were changed to require that swimmers surface not more than 15 feet from the wall after the turn, otherwise, short distance freestyle events would have turned into underwater dolphin kick only.

I don't know how this will apply to the aqueon, but it will be interesting to find out.
 
Looking at the videos, it appears that virtually all of the propulsion results from bending the knee. Is that correct? If so, that is a pretty extreme concentration of effort on a few muscle groups, seems like you would get tired quickly. The lactic burn on a long dive should be prohibitive. If all you are using are knee muscles and the gadget is so efficient that you don't get tired, this would have to be the best way to depth ever.

Connor
 
Interesting observations about dolphin kicking competitive swimmers. You would think body orientation during the kick wouldn't be that significant but it certainly feels that way.

There is more full body involvement in the stroke just as in dolphin kicking with fins. Propulsion is reliant upon far more muscles than those connected to the knee. I am still getting used to and tuning the Aqueon myself and as a result am still improving performance. Given our coastal characteristics in SE Florida, deeper water is a ways offshore. Most of my recent time has been nearer to shore. Hope to hook up with a boat this weekend, here or perhaps out of town to take a better look at deeper water performance.
 
Actually, from a biomechanics perspective you are removing a link in the kinetic chain. You would no longer need to stabilize the ankle which greatly increases over all muscular efficiency (eliminating the use of 12 muscles of the lower leg and numerous foot muscles) not to mention it would prevent foot cramping and pocket trouble.

Further, restricted motion of the knee, rather than deep bending, is much easier on the quads and hams. Also, it seems from the video that the hip is held in a much more neutral position throughout the stroke than with monofinning.

Finally, by bringing the anchor point of the device closer to the core the body's muscles can exert much more force per effort. Ever try to hold a 2x4 from an end at arms length? Same concept, it's much easier for your body to exert force onto something if it's closer to the core.

Not sure if they were considered in the making of this thing, but the biomechanics make a lot more sense. I'm definitely a fan and would love to see this thing in production again.

~JMP
 
  • Like
Reactions: DeepThought
On the inverted question, competitive freestyle swimmers have discovered that they are faster underwater, dolphin kicking, inverted. Once this became widespread, the rules were changed to require that swimmers surface not more than 15 feet from the wall after the turn, otherwise, short distance freestyle events would have turned into underwater dolphin kick only.
Interesting observations about dolphin kicking competitive swimmers. You would think body orientation during the kick wouldn't be that significant but it certainly feels that way.

It is not really the body position that makes the difference - that is pretty unimportant in the quasi-weightless environment. It is the proximity of a material threshold (surface, wall, pool bottom) that is important. When a fin moves against a barrier (as I wrote: surface, wall, or a pool bottom), the water pushed away with the fin, unlike in free space in deep water, is restricted fro two sides, and hence instead of being pushed away in an angle close to 90°, is rather forced backward, and propulses so the swimmer similarly like a burning fuel in a rocket reactor. Well, the matter is little bit more complicated, because the positive propulsion effect is reduced by higher turbulences, friction, and suction effect, but generally swimming close (in optimal distance) to any surface while propulsing against it, gives an advantage against swimming in a free space.

Now, once you realize the opposing surface gives you an advantage, swimming face to it is indeed better for two reasons:
  1. You can much better control your distance to the surface/bottom/wall when looking at it, and keeping it so optimal, avoiding touching the surface, or getting too close which increases suction effects and turbulences.
  2. Due to the physiology, I believe the forward kick is little bit stronger and faster than the reverse kick. Hence when you swim face to any surface, you use the stronger part of the kick to push water against the surface which gives more propulsion than the reverse kick moving water into free space.
However, although this is valid for swimming with conventional fins and monofins, I believe that due to the use of the hydrofoils, and due to their position, the propulsion is more symmetric with the Aqueon, hence I would not expect the same advantage as at fin swimmers. On the other hand, it is true that the pair of Aqueon hydrofoils that is under the breast is much closer to the surface if you swim face to it than vice versa, so maybe finally it could give some extra speed (though I wouldn't expect any important difference).

Still, for real diving (I mean being deep), the body position is absolutely unimportant (unless you can sink or swim along some wall).

If you are interested about fluid mechanics and biomechanics related to swimming and fin swimming, there are some documents in my Freediving Media Base: documents hydrodynamics @ APNEA.cz In this case, I especially recommend the one titled Swimming Biomechanics - it includes several studies of monofin swimmers and also many other references for those who are really interested in that matter.
 
I am finding spending more time with the Aqueon to enhance performance is important. I remember just putting the thing on and taking off as a kid. Still, if you are trying to hit maximum speed and evaluate on deeper dives more time in the saddle and tuning of the device helps.

I took it down to Key Largo this weekend for some free diving on the wreck of the Spiegal Grove. I started on it immediately but would have benefited from some warmup time with fins alone or with a dive scooter I brought along. The scooter diving was interesting with possible decompression issues that I raised HERE Next time I'll get that sequence right. Anyway, once you are inverted and descending it is straight forward enough. I cut the dives off at 80 ft. with the Aqueon. I am still evaluating the best speed and amplitude of kick for extended depth vs. air consumption. The current was light fortunately but visibility wasn't as good as I had hoped.

I setup the mod for feet first descent (inverting the foils and securing them to the line and spring) but discovered a serious problem with the eyehooks it was suggested that I use. They hit the axle the foils ride upon without sufficient embedment to probably stay put so I didn't get to try that approach. I need to work something up externally on the foils that will allow reliable, quick and easy inversion and righting at depth for ascent. I'm thinking something with line and hooks. Will update on that once I work it out.

I also tried inverted swimming a few times at max speed and really didn't notice that much difference, this time. The jury is still out with me until I have more time on this thing and get it tuned just right and am using the right type of kick for max speed. I am still trying to figure out the balance between kick amplitude and frequency or speed vs. distance/air consumption. You can actually move quite fast with fairly good efficiency with a small amplitude, rapid kick as opposed to a more larger amplitude, powerful kick.
 
Last edited:
... I also tried inverted swimming a few times at max speed and really didn't notice that much difference, this time. The jury is still out with me until I have more time on this thing and get it tuned just right and am using the right type of kick for max speed. I am still trying to figure out the balance between kick amplitude and frequency or speed vs. distance/air consumption. You can actually move quite fast with fairly good efficiency with a small amplitude, rapid kick as opposed to a more larger amplitude, powerful kick.

I'm thinking that the faster the speed through water, the smaller the arc of the tail/fin/foil on each stroke. As speed increases, arc decreases, and the muscular output becomes more like a rhythmic beat. Hard to explain this, higher amplitude = smaller arc = more automatic like heartbeat = far more efficient per axial distance per O2 consumed; as opposed to eel-like swimming, where the arc may be 1/2 as long as the body (?).

My point being, maximize hydrodynamics and minimize arc of stroke at high speed in order to conserve oxygen. Like a speeding dolphin with the tail just barely flicking. At high speeds, you are literally pushing a wall of water out of your way, so hydrodynamic streamlining is absolutely essential, otherwise you're burning O2 just swishing.

High speed apnea swimming = DANGEROUS, be very careful, the more successful (faster), the higher the risk. IMO, requires a buddy on a scooter closely accompanying the diver. Oxygen consumption rate is critical.
That's not even considering all the other normal free-diving risks and distractions. Safe diving.
 
Interesting points and they make sense. I've been looking at caudal fins since I reacquired an Aqueon. Wondering if a thinner foil section might perform for faster, easier oscillations with lower air consumption. Say something like a tuna fin or maybe that of some marine creature with a fin beat rate that might be comfortably approximated by a human.

The current foils are fairly thick and shove a fair amount of added mass as you point out. There is the tradeoff between lift, drag and added mass vs. energy input and air consumption. I have no doubt Cal did a lot of development in these areas years back. Still, the candidate design was to have wooden foils which have to have a minimum sectional area to be strong enough to perform. Wonder what would be experienced with thinner, lighter foils of varying aspect ratios.

The spring supposedly aids performance until sufficient speed is achieved, I suspect until the vortical streets shed by the foils promote oscillation. I am not totally convinced though and wonder if some benefit is provided even at higher speeds. I was thinking of some form of spring tensioning, better still a spring replacement, that could be tensioned on the fly.

You are right, going full out in apnea is a hazardous activity. A minder closely paralleling your movement is a reasonable precaution.


Aqueon_On_The_Sapona_s.sized.jpg

A photo of the Aqueon on the Wreck of the Sapona off Bimini in the Bahamas. Shot a fair amount of still and video of the Aqueon within and around the Sapona. Hope to get things processed and uploaded soon.
 
Last edited:
Nice photo, Ricki! We can well see the speed of the device on the way the bikini are being torn away by the water resistance. I am sure they blew out just a few seconds afterward and do not understand why you did not post that photo too :)

BTW, the patent for Aqueon with quite detailed explanation and construction plans are available online (the PDF with pictures was posted on DB here). I bet that there would a lot of people interested in it if it really works only half as well as claimed here, so I hope either Innerspace or someone else will bring it back to the market soon. Indeed, as written above, it would be great seeing the device made in carbon. I am myself quite excited and playing with the idea to build one for my own use. There are plenty of carbon hydrofoil manufacturers (some links for example here: Links to Hydrofoil Web Sites), so it should not be too difficult to get a fitting prefabricated wing to build such relatively simple device.
 
I guess the "going deep" combined with "going fast" sounded risky. But I guess the way down needs much less physical exertion anyway.

It does sound interesting and a lot of fun to use.
 
I guess the "going deep" combined with "going fast" sounded risky. But I guess the way down needs much less physical exertion anyway.

It does sound interesting and a lot of fun to use.

I should have been clearer in what I was saying. My speed runs to date have been very near the surface and generally along side of a support boat and safety line. Folks have been watching but not close enough to intercede rapidly if BO occurs. I haven't been doing fast runs on descent, yet, and may not either at least not very deep.

The inventor gave me a call today and I mentioned my difficulty with setting it up for inverted flight. Apparently, I needed to shift the location of the eyescrews back on the foil further than I thought. So, I may give that a go this weekend. It is fun and becomes more familiar with time.

Thanks and hold that thought Trux, back at you soon!
 
Last edited:
I had some links and a video of Aqueon in the Collection of Weird Fins, and in my Freediving Media Base, but I completed it with the links Ricki kindly posted here and at FKSA.org. You can see them now all at this URL: aqueon @ APNEA.cz
 
Nice photo, Ricki! We can well see the speed of the device on the way the bikini are being torn away by the water resistance. I am sure they blew out just a few seconds afterward and do not understand why you did not post that photo too :)

BTW, the patent for Aqueon with quite detailed explanation and construction plans are available online (the PDF with pictures was posted on DB here). I bet that there would a lot of people interested in it if it really works only half as well as claimed here, so I hope either Innerspace or someone else will bring it back to the market soon. Indeed, as written above, it would be great seeing the device made in carbon. I am myself quite excited and playing with the idea to build one for my own use. There are plenty of carbon hydrofoil manufacturers (some links for example here: Links to Hydrofoil Web Sites), so it should not be too difficult to get a fitting prefabricated wing to build such relatively simple device.

32_G.sized.jpg


Thanks Trux, here's a slightly clearer one on the next day with the rays in Honeymoon Harbor to the south. Everything stayed in place fortunately, so I didn't have any tough editorial decisions to make.

The Bimini Aqueon video is still in the cooker but should be interesting once it comes out. Nice job of documenting online info and resources related to the Aqueon in your database!

Rick
 
Last edited:
Excellent research Trux. I had heard about the guy from Darpa who was apparently very curious about the Aqueon with lots of questions. The only compensation that may have been tendered could well have been limited to dinner. I didn't know they had a model out that wasn't classified. Hope the guy gets full return on "his" invention. Karma can be a real bugger.
 
Sent an email to the program manager of the rip off device (Powerswim), asking some questions. Lets see if he answers.
 
Last edited:
60_s.jpg


I just uploaded a couple of video clips of the Aqueon from the Bahamas at the link below. One is of a girl who had been on it less than an hour but was already ripping it up through the flooded interior of the Wreck of the Sapona like she had been riding the Aqueon for a long time.

[ame=http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=92]Something Rich And Strange ... Diving Tales From The Water Underworld - FKA Kiteboarding Forums[/ame]

p.s. - no reply to a voice mail left at DARPA. You would think that for $2.8 M they could afford to have folks return calls particularly related to new product sales. Wonder if inquires to their benefactors in this case, the US Government regarding their design "breakthrough" could yield some info?
 
Last edited:
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2024 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Ocean Advocacy and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT