Freediving Ban

[Johan]

one of the sports bigger problems, I think, is :when does someone how drowned at a pool become a freediver? what is the distinction between a freediver and a few kids challenging each other at the pool? ...anyone swiming a length or two under water can pass out, it doesnt need to have anything to do with freediving, but for the general public and for media it will be "freediver died in swimingpool"...scubadiver doing a little snorkeling after scuba? media writes "freediver died.."..here in Stockholm we have a freediveclub with an hour at a pool every week. we've had that same timeslot for the last five years ( 40 times a year, avarage 10 participents, counting low = 2000 training hours..). In those five years we have had NO serious accidents and I believe a total of two Blackouts. both recovered within seconds and all was well. However, now the manager of the pool has just realized that we practice freediving and we might not get access to the pool next season, becouse what we do is so dangerus..it seems, to him "freediving" is just another word for dying in the pool..
this just makes it so much more important to stick together. never practice alone, inform the people around you what you're doing, make sure your spoter is spoting you and not that babe over there( same goes for you..)

ignorans will always be there and trying to stop us..INFORM THE UNINFORMED..
..and by the way..that same pool during the rest of the week is used by kids, jumping from the hight of a three storie building...and they call us crazy???

Johan

 

[cdavis]

Well, it has started. My pool closed out apnea practice today as a result of this article. I have got a long road educating some supervisors. Wish me luck.

I'm starting a new thread on this subject to make sure nobody misses it, asking for information I can use.

Thanks all

Connor

 

[octopus]

By "regulate" I simply meant some common sense DOs and DON'Ts that we all agree on. Safety is about common sense after all, not about tons of bureaucratic material. I would not like to see government involved or freediving licences.:s
Governments have more important tasks to do. They are in eternal process of deciding whether they are coming or going. They also try to increase their control of our lives so we can serve them better.

Actually, I think freediver being watched by another freediver is safer scenario than member of public being watched by an average lifeguard. As Johan mentioned, great deal of care is taken and an accident doesn't happend as often as people would believe it. When it happens, recovery is within seconds. You watch only one person at the time, while lifeguard watches entire pool. You know exactly what your mate is doing and you have rather limited span of time to watch over her. Lifeguard thinks everyone is happily swimming and in the best case has a half an hour shift. You also anticipate what might happen and when it might happen. Lifeguard probably anticipates pint in the pub later on. And you know exactly what to do if it happens. Lifeguard knows what to do as well, except reaction and recovery time can be much longer in his case.

As article in question points, lifeguards probably have much worse recovery record than freedivers.

I am of opinion that national freediving associations could play important role in seeking some sort of agreement with pools.

 

[subaquaticus]

I am of opinion that national freediving associations could play important role in seeking some sort of agreement with pools.

The problem is that, in France at least, the only association representing officially the freedivers is the FFESSM which is CMAS-affiliated. FFESSM deals by 85% by scuba divers.

Then FFESSM's views are scuba divers' views, which has not much to do with freedivers'views

 

[subaquaticus]

one of the sports bigger problems, I think, is :when does someone how drowned at a pool become a freediver? what is the distinction between a freediver and a few kids challenging each other at the pool? ...anyone swiming a length or two under water can pass out, it doesnt need to have anything to do with freediving, but for the general public and for media it will be "freediver died in swimingpool"...scubadiver doing a little snorkeling after scuba? media writes "freediver died.."..here in Stockholm we have a freediveclub with an hour at a pool every week. we've had that same timeslot for the last five years ( 40 times a year, avarage 10 participents, counting low = 2000 training hours..). In those five years we have had NO serious accidents and I believe a total of two Blackouts. both recovered within seconds and all was well. However, now the manager of the pool has just realized that we practice freediving and we might not get access to the pool next season, becouse what we do is so dangerus..it seems, to him "freediving" is just another word for dying in the pool..
this just makes it so much more important to stick together. never practice alone, inform the people around you what you're doing, make sure your spoter is spoting you and not that babe over there( same goes for you..)

ignorans will always be there and trying to stop us..INFORM THE UNINFORMED..
..and by the way..that same pool during the rest of the week is used by kids, jumping from the hight of a three storie building...and they call us crazy???

Johan

your attitude is very contempting towards the lifeguards ;

you play on words... in your view one deserves the appellation "freediver" only if one is properly trained, belongs to an adequate freediving club, etc...

in the common sense, a "freediver" is anybody holding their breath underwater...

I used to train in a very "reasonable" way (no more than 25 m in public hours) under the watching of lifeguards...

Once I unexpectedly bumped underwater into a kid imitating me... I tried to talk with the youngster, but he was really stupid, boasting that he was a super diver... This stupid youngster had the typical stupid attitude which leads to death underwater...

The lifeguards then asked me to stop doing apnea ; I was reasonable myself, but then anybody could feel entitled to do the same and lifeguards would have no argument to forbid them what they authorize for me...

 

[ggarrett]

About the authors of "Dying for Air" ....

The manager of the Cheyenne Municipal Pool loaned her copy the Aquatics International magazine in which the "Dying for Air" article appeared. The credentials of the authors will make setting the record straight more difficult.

Tom Griffiths is aquatics director and safety officer at Pennsylvannia State University as well as the incoming chair of the NRPA aquatics branch. But more importantly, he is a member of the editorial advisory board of Aquatics International. Thus, he will have a say in any response article submitted. As pointed out in several posts here and on DeeperBlue, politeness will go along way in getting our message out. The powers that be at Aquatics International think highly of Tom Griffiths, enough so, that in the same issue, they selected him as one the 25 most powerful people in the world of aquatics. See http://www.aquaticsintl.com/2005/feb/0502_griffiths.html The other author is his brother, Walter Griffiths, who is a family physician with an interest in sports related injuries. He has practiced medicine for more than 30 years in B ellows Falls, Vt. Currently, he is practicing in New Zealand for the winter- all according to Aquatics International.

So within the context of the magazine, these authors carry lots of credibility and clout. Having a response from an equal authority will be important.

To keep it brief, I will address other related topics in separate posts.

Peace,
Glen

 

[ggarrett]

While practicing my new discipline of checking in with the lifeguards before an apnea practice session, I received some very good observations about the "Dying for Air" article.

A Colorado pool manager observed that synchronized swimming experiences blackouts at virtually every competition that he has guarded. Competitions cause a pushing of limits. He said that he has to deal with one or two blackouts in every competition. I checked http://www.usasynchro.org/ which is the national synchronized swimming organization. I found it interesting, disturbing, that I could not find anything about safety. I could find no known deaths in synchronized swimming. Will Aquatics International next call for a ban on synchronized swimming, an olympic sport?

Our assistant pool manger and assistant high school swimming coach reacted to the article from a swimming coach's point of view. Dynamic apneas have been a common and widespread competitive swimming training technique from the junior high school to the olympic level. In the hundreds of thousands of dynamic apnea lengths practiced each year in competitve training, I could find no instances of death due to this practice. In my experience, apnea lengths have been part of competitive training for over 40 years (now guess my age). His point is that if it were as dangerous as the authors claim, it would have banned years ago.

An important point to remember with both synchronized swimming and competitive swimming is that apnea swimming takes place under well guarded and supervised conditions with a focus on safety. Unfortunately, there will always be that uniformed and reckless person who will take risks without even knowing their dangers. This is true of all sports in general and of plain old surface swimming in particular. However, both synchronized swimming and competitive swimming provide great opportunities for the freediving world to educate the swimming world about the safe practice of apneas and also its dangers.

I hope this helps. These were points by pool administrators themselves.

Peace,
Glen

 

[DrLindholm]

Well, just a thought about the authors of the "Dying for air article". They might be very powerful and have nice titles to their names but regarding the content in the paper it seems to me that they have not updated their knowledge by reading the scientific litterature on swimming or breath-holding for about 20 years.

 

[jon71]

This is a very interesting thread.
I train in a pool in leamington spa with Remi in a scubie session and the lifeguards are cool about the whole thing. They look on with mild interest rather than panic! At the end of the day they seem confident that a buddy system is in place....
The pool has even offered us a lane in normal pool hours so we can train when it is not too busy in public sessions. How cool is that?
I hope ignorance about this beautiful sport does not stop people doing it in other parts of the world.
Education is everything, and I should know - I'm a teacher

 

[jome]

Seems we had a fatal accident in Finland last week as well (not much details yet).

Familliar story. Young male, alone, pushing his limit. Really a shame.

Now the pool operators might face criminal charges for "neglecting safety". If there indeed was a true neglect, this is a good thing. However, in this light, anyone surely understands that the staff at pools will have very little tolerance for apnea. Would you like to face charges if someone came to your back yard and died because of his own wrecklesness?

This is a very sensitive subject and we all must understand where the motivation and frustration to ban what we love comes from.

In my humble opinnion, solo diving at pools must stop. Staff should be alerted and intervene if they see somene holding their breath without supervision. I think this is what "the article" tried to do and it is obvious that in this repspect people cannot be trusted with their own safety. If they insist on taking this responsibility for them selves, they should have the courtesy of doing it somewhere, where their life is not the responsibility of others.

Freediving should not stop. It is a very safe hobby with the basic safety protocols provided. This is where "the article" goes horribly wrong.

 

[cdavis]

Hi Jome,

It is a complex subject. I think it is possible for a single diver to train safely, but under tight limits. For example, if I am alone (most of the time), I swim in the lane directly in front of the guards, never do static, never hyperventilate, and don't push my limits, not even close. The guards know what is going on and the pool is very uncrowded. I'm going to take Glen's advice and involve them in dynamics.

The problem with prohibitions is they tend to include all breath holding, even when every diver is trained and adhering to a tight buddy system. Such is the effect of the infamous article. Much better to educate the pool folks and get some guidelines in place that distinquishes safe from unsafe practices and specificly allows the safe.

Connor

 

[jome]

Ok, by solo freediving I meant someone that the staff has absolutely no idea about what they're doing.

The problem there is that there is no way for them to know if that diver is within their limit or pushing like hell, no matter how conservative the dive. All they see is someone holding their breath that will soon either be in trouble or not. From that perspective it is easiest to ban the whole thing: out of sight, out of mind. If we keep on doing this, that's exactly how they'll respond.

Where as if people are responsible about it, approach the guards about what they're doing and agree that if they are not aware of what you're doing, they should consider that a dangerus activity and intervene is what I meant by "banning". They must be able to assume that someone laying at the bottom is in trouble, not just someone "maybe within his limit".

But the problem with lifeguards is what happened in Canada. It is sometimes better to have no spotter at all than having the false sense of security of a spotter that doesn't know what they're doing. So if you go in there with just notifying the guards, please explain to them in detail what it's all about and how they should react in certain situations.

 

[Jon]

BUMP

After seven years of being able to swim/train in my local YMCA pool with whatever gear I wanted (bi-fins, monofins, weightbelts, wetsuits, etc.) I get pulled aside by the lifeguard yesterday who tells me that the aquatic director wants to talk to me and that they all need to be hyper-vigilant when I'm in there.

I happened to be just swimming normal laps yesterday, and have never had a problem, but they had an incident last week that changed everything for them.

I understand that the kid's swimming coach decided to have everyone do max distance dynamics at the end of training. There was no safety talked about or put in place. As a result, they had one 8 year old girl swim a lap underwater and pass out after her kick turn. Watching her go limp and sink freaked them all out pretty good and now they are afraid of anyone who swims a lap, or more, underwater.

I offered to run their guards, and coaches, through a safety clinic but haven't heard anything back yet. I hope that this doesn't mean I loose all of my privileges over what the swim coach did.:head

I know that Nostres had a similar incident at his pool and I can see it happening all too easily here as well.

Jon

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Jon,

That really sucks.

I would suggest approaching this formally. Ask for another meeting with the aquatics director (or if they can't/won't see you send a letter!) and present current safety protocols, manual and support material and what you can do to help (which you've already done to an extent) and make sure that you stress the safety aspects of doing this safely.

Drop me a line if you want assistance on any of this as we regularly have to present to much tougher crowds (like the Military) about safety and assistance.

 

[BennyB]

There's nothing worse than an ill-educated knee-jerk reaction based on the stupidity of others.

Hope it all ends well for you Jon!

 

[trux]

Well, I am afraid pool management will get stricter everywhere as soon as they experience an accident, or get wiser. Here in Lyon, we can train only during the hours reserved for our club. Fortunately all public pools have to offer part of the time to sportive clubs. Certified instructor must be always present, but additionally we have to pay an additional life-guard (to the one already present in the pool), who surveys us permanently and very closely.

Anyone training in apnea within public hours, or without the required surveillance, might be banned and possibly penalized by the city and/or the freediving association.

I know it is a hassle, but personally think that it is the right approach of the pool management.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

JON- I had something similar happen last week, at a pool I've been doing dynamic at for about a year now. Gaurds and pool manager pulled me asside as I was leaving, apparently they had gone through some kind of briefing about banning any kind of hypoxic training--- don't know the name but apparently thier is some swim assosiation(high school maybe) that is banning hypoxic workouts and deleting it from thier manuals and notifying pools to ban it. The lifegaurds who had never had any problems before are now very paranoid- the things they where telling me were way over the top and incorrect-they started to lecture me on shallow water blackout for example(which is not and issue in dyn.) When all was said and done they agreed I can do dyn. but must limit distance to 50m--they said nothing about recovery time which would be one of the big issues with hypoxia. I don't know if comptitive swimmers have really been dying or if a paranoid lawyer got to someone, I feel sorry for thier swim teams. I'm gonna wait a bit till they all settle down a bit and then maybe approach the pool about setting up a propper club were people can do longer or max attemps-they have had underwater hockey there in the past so it might be do-able-----anyone a lifegaurd or competitive swimmer know anything about this

 

[trux]

... they said nothing about recovery time which would be one of the big issues with hypoxia...

Actually, the shorter the recovery, the higher the hypercapnia. And since you are rather on the safe side when training hypercapnic, short recovery times are safer from this point of view.

I do not know, guys, if you were used to train alone earlier, but as I wrote - that's practically unimaginable here, and on my mind it is very correct. You can be a super-freediver, but you can black out easier than you think. Sorry for being a jerk, but banning unorganized hypoxic training is a very wise decision from the pool management. Found a club, and get a knowledgeable person to supervise you. Training in organized manner in a club has many more advantages, not only the safety aspect.

 

[Fondueset]

I just started using a pool a couple of months ago. It took some work to get in there. I primarily do 25 yard apnea sprints with short recovery times. My focus is pretty much entirely on monofin technique and relaxation. I never do statics or swim more than 50 yards at a shot underwater. They've got some real temperamental lap swimmers there so I stay in the slow lane during lap swims and carefully avoid everybody. I've been thinking about emailing the pool manager with my personal protocols but I'm on the fence about whether to raise this issue pro actively or just slide. I'm concerned that now that I'm there doing it more people will start and we'll get a blackout or two.

 

[Jon]

I've had a VERY good relationship with this pool in the past.

I've brought in buddies, who know what they are doing, to practice dynamics and statics. I stick to 25 or 50 yd underwater monofin sprints when on my own- and don't push anything when i am in there without a proper buddy.

I've also worked with the Master's swim coach and other regulars at the pool by letting them try out monofins. I've also gone in on weekends and videotaped their swimmers underwater so that the coach could critique their form.

I've taught Discover Scuba's for them for free as part of their Strong Kid's fundraisers. I also used to work there in their Early childhood program. I've volunteered as the drowned swimmer on the bottom of the pool for their lifeguard classes and I am always ready to put on my fins and be the motor for their raft during swimming lessons.

I have had a very good relationship over the past 7 years and I think they are allowing me to continue, for now, because of this. I see the writing on the wall, and will curtail my underwater laps for now so that they will still allow me to bring fins in for surface stuff.

I have a back-up plan for pools. I can always train off to the side when the Underwater hockey teams train, but I just haven't done it in the past month because the timing doesn't work out the best for my schedule.

I have a feeling that the Swim coach will get more of the brunt of this than I will.

Jon