Freediving Ban

[cdavis]

Hi Jon.

Deja vu all over again. Same thing happened to me. No guarantee that this will work for you, but here is what I did.

Put together, in writing, a critique of the BS article my pool's manager was reading. Knocking holes in BS gains you quite a lot of creditability. I'll go find a copy and get it to you. Let her read it and then we had a long discussion, after I politely let her know that I was doing the same thing with her boss and would go on up the chain to the County Commissioners if somebody didn't see reason. I was more than willing to accept what, for me, would have been pretty onerous rules, but that ended up not being required.

It all came out fine and I have made a point to talk with guards and managers about what I'm doing and why. Involving the guards in my activities is fun for them and safer for me.

In truth, I have been getting sloppy about safety and need to tighten up. Your experience is a good wake up call.

Thanks,

Connor

 

[Bill]

Conner
I'd like a copy of anything that helped. There's a big control struggle at our pool and divers are divided let alone organised. Loud mouthed, self proclaimed experts came at us from all directions. We lost big time.

 

[naiad]

Actually, the shorter the recovery, the higher the hypercapnia. And since you are rather on the safe side when training hypercapnic, short recovery times are safer from this point of view.

I disagree that short recovery times are safer. I can get very 'spaced out' doing short interval dynamics and I know of others who have experienced the same.

 

[osusim]

Found a club, and get a knowledgeable person to supervise you.

Sometimes pool management's paranoia starts from persons who want to monopolize any freediving activity in a pool. Pay me or you will not dive here - main slogan of such persons. In this case any talking about safety is just a demagogy.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

trux-- in my pool they are banning organized hypoxic work,coached swim practices. I do dive with a spotter in water anything over 50m, I would rather train with a club or at least a regular buddy as I would progress better if I could push harder more often, but no success finding this situation yet.

 

[trux]

Sometimes pool management's paranoia starts from persons who want to monopolize any freediving activity in a pool. Pay me or you will not dive here - main slogan of such persons. In this case any talking about safety is just a demagogy.

Well, this is not exactly our case - the pool management gets actually no extra money from us. They only require that besides FFESSM certified instructors, we are also surveyed by a BNSSA certified life guard. We found and hire our life guard ourselves - besides being professional life guard, he is also a former spearfishing competitor, and a sofrology instructor, so he is a real asset for us not only from the safety point of view.

In our case, the pool management does not get paid for the elevated safety at all. They only require it, and I can well understand why. And even if it was the case you describe, and they profited from it, I'd tell they have the full right to do it - finally it is them who is legally responsible in case of any accident. Whether you like it or not, the risk of a blackout and possible death at unsurveyed hypoxic training is higher than at most other water sports.

 

[trux]

I disagree that short recovery times are safer. I can get very 'spaced out' doing short interval dynamics and I know of others who have experienced the same.

Yes, you may feel 'spaced out' after intensive hypercapnic work, but the increased level of CO2 will definitely protect you from black out better, and push you to surface sooner than if you push in the same way with long rest intervals, or even worse after some hyperventilation.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

As I recall, it was at least 10 years ago that the founder of the Freedivelist was complaining that the municipal pools in Long Beach, CA wouldn't let him practice apnea any more. I'm almost surprised that it took so long to become more widespread.

If I were responsible for a pool in the litigious United States, I don't think I would allow it either. Lifeguards have enough to do just watching out for regular swimmers. The fact that you might claim that you have a buddy who was taking responsibility for your safety might not hold up in court when your spouse or parents sued the city after your death.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

far more likely to die in a car wreck on the way to the pool than blackout

 

[trux]

far more likely to die in a car wreck on the way to the pool than blackout

I am afraid that you are very, very wrong - regardless if you take the number of fatalities per traveled distance, or per number of participants. Alone in the USA there are each year around 2,000 drownings in swimming pools (data from 90's). Worldwide it will be possibly far over 10,000 (just my estimation). Not all of them are related to breath-hold activities, but certainly a significant part of them are. Sure, only few of the dead are trained freedivers, but there are some too - we hear about some of them here on DB regularly. But if you compare the total number of freedivers, and the total number of car traffic participants, then I am afraid the ratio of death/participants will be several orders higher.

I understand your frustration, but underestimating or denying the risks that are very real is not the best way to promote (and perform) the sport. You may be lucky or careful, never pushing even remotely to your limits, and never black out, but if you are training in a public pool, you can bet that kids or teenagers watching you, will try it too, and that can finish very tragically.

 

[Whopperhead]

In our class we took last week - 1 guy blacked out during static. No one got into a car wreck. There were 6 of us in the class.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

First of all I mean no disrespect, your knowledge is amazing. I see drowning on the news frequently, almost always alchohol related or unsupervised toddlers falling in. All I'm saying is you can go over the top on safety, I grew up skating/surfing did things that in hindsight should have killed me several times. Ever been hit in the head with some kook's longboard, happened to me recently even though I was out with friends, unlikely they would have found me had I blacked out. I don't have a death wish, as stated I do have safety when warranted, but I'm not going to sit home and watch TV praying for the day there are enough freedivers for clubs either. I fully understand your stance and your ctritizism is fully justified as there is a responsibility to the safety of others reading the forum.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

wopperhead-- your class is very different situation, we all push our limits in courses cause you have the propper safety to push it that far, much different than a conservative 50m dyn with monofin

 

[bjpete]

Several years ago my best friend x-wife drown while swimming at a near-by pool (not the same one that Jon was referring to). I didn't hear what the final cause of death was but I'm guessing that because the temperature of the pool was higher for teaching swimming kid's lessons it was too warm for lap swimming. She probably got dehydrated and didn't drink any water while working out which resulting in her passing out (not a shallow water blackout). The owners of the pool claimed there was a guard on duty at the time but I'm sure he or she didn't have a clue about the effects of improper hydration. Needless to say it was a sad time for everyone that knew her. Also, the victim was one of my students when I taught SCUBA, so I know she was a good swimmer. As a side note, as soon as I found out she was pregnant during the SCUBA lessons I "kicked" her out of the class.

 

[Whopperhead]

MHF- I agree- I'm just saying - it happened like "that". no warnings. He thought things were going good and when he came to- had no idea he had blacked out. I just thought "man, that didn't take long for someone to blackout" - It seemed too easy.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

Hi Jon.

Deja vu all over again. Same thing happened to me. No guarantee that this will work for you, but here is what I did.

Put together, in writing, a critique of the BS article my pool's manager was reading. Knocking holes in BS gains you quite a lot of creditability. I'll go find a copy and get it to you. Let her read it and then we had a long discussion, after I politely let her know that I was doing the same thing with her boss and would go on up the chain to the County Commissioners if somebody didn't see reason. I was more than willing to accept what, for me, would have been pretty onerous rules, but that ended up not being required.

It all came out fine and I have made a point to talk with guards and managers about what I'm doing and why. Involving the guards in my activities is fun for them and safer for me.

In truth, I have been getting sloppy about safety and need to tighten up. Your experience is a good wake up call.

Thanks,

Connor

Connor - i'd like to get a copy of this as well.

 

[Jon]

I just got hit with this today.:head:head:head

I've been training at the local YMCA for years with out an issue. They've let me use neck weights, monofins, wetsuits, bi-fins. I've also been able to bring people in to train, spot, do dynamics, negatives and statics with.

All of that came to a screaching halt today. New regualtions are that swimmers can do no more than 1 length underwater - and no statics. Not even 1 lap underwater, just 1 length.:head

The Aquatic Director, who I've known for years, told me that the insurance carrier has a whole new adittude on this subject and it doesn't matter what you are comfortable with- they don't want anyone copying you.

Not sure what I'm going to do for training anymore, but I'll figure something out. Right now I'm going to sit and sulk for a while- and watch Dora and Diego with my three year old.rofl

Jon

 

[Kars]

Jon I'm very sorry to hear of what happened to your training.

I've also some banning experiences. The staff of the pool banned us from swimming more than 15m underwater, the distance allowed by competition swimmers to swim underwater after the turn. Luckily for us we had worked on having a good relation with the staff. We taught some of them how to relax and equalise, help with required 15m dynamic the staff needs to be able to do every year. We also are always with two persons, both educated and spotting each other when we do more than our easy 50m dynamics. So when the ban came, we did write a letter, had a few brief meetings etc. The ban remained. But after a pause of a few weeks, we returned and started, with the staffers on our sides to stretch up the limits. Now we can do almost everything. We only need to make sure we don't hinder other swimmers, or do a BO.

But I reckon in the control-freak future the insurance companies will like to maximise their profit, resulting in swimming synchronised head above water, facing a dozen life guards, smiling without blinking, wearing red kosher badeing suits and floats.

So better work on those lifeguards, and become civil disobedient. At some point we have to straiten our backs and say no

Love, Courage and Water!

Kars

 

[Jon]

The other problem is that the their "kid's" swim coach had a bunch of 8 year olds trying to do max dynamics as part of her swim pracitice last winter- and one of them blakced out in the deep end. I almost thought it was the end of my training back then, but they knew me, and there's never been an incident, so they let me continue. Having this happen today, after so much time passing, really kind of blinsided me.

I might have ot just switch things aorund to more of a hockey style workout with no more than one length covered underwater at any time- or go to the gym and black myself out on one of the tread mills- just kidding.

Jon

 

[Kars]

It can be a tactic, giving a person a 'hint' in advance. It's called 'predictive programming'. It's like calling you boss, to tell him you're a 10 minutes late due to traffic. This will prepare the other side. And is much better than being 5 minutes late without warning.

On the possible exercises, try holding a floating board against the water in you're stretched out arms. You can also do FRC's, or exhale. Also you can swim wearing a snorkel, but not using it , a few laps on the surface and do the last lap under water.

I've heard that Natalia likes to do pyramid schedules. Like two strokes, breath for a 100m, than 3 and 1 breath, for another 100, etc.

But creative tricks aside, the situation for you really sucks
I hope you got a nice deep water lake or sea nearby where "Mr. Savage" can retreat to when the bureaucrats have worked their dark magic, taking away your pleasure of pool underwater swimming.

What do the rest of the pool users and staff think about the new 'policy' ?
Maybe you find fertile ground to plant the seeds of courage and liberty.
Our staff aren't snitches, and they'll deny to superiors having seen us doing anything wrong. 'Everybody can make mistakes', and that's space a lifeguard can use in case you're both get cought.
Take some time to gather more info, on yourself, your 'enemy' and the situation. And choose and time your actions carefully. Often there is a energy efficient way to create big changes by finding and hitting the right nerves at the right time.
I'm sure your vigilance or heroism will give hope to and be appreciated by many.
Children need local "hero's" to look up to, to emulate.

At another pool where I used to come to train with a nice small group of freedivers went through a reconstruction and policy change. This caused us to stay away, and recently I learned from one of freediving friends visiting that 2 years after we've left the staff is still remembering and missing the good old times with us attending.

All the best, let us know what's happening!

Kars