Freediving Death...

[Fondueset]

Bill,

Appreciation for you recalling this event - and for your straightforward style.

 

[Paul Kotik]

Bill and Eric: you are my main men. I salute you both, and humbly ask that you keep on keepin' it real. Bless you.

 

[Fondueset]

What he said

 

[Bill McIntyre]

The bottom line is if you are not comfortable diving and with the ocean you dont dive, never mind dive alone.

I think that by far the bigger problem is people who are too comfortable with the ocean and diving. Its the highly skilled divers who suffer from SWB.

We just had one in SoCal last month, and everyone said what a great diver he was and what an exceptional breath hold he had.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Sorry to hear you experienced such horrendous events.

Would a plastic CPR shield have helped even a little? (Bill's situation?) I was under the impression that scuba divers often keep something like that in a pocket. Freedivers could attach it to a dive float.

I have one in my boat now.

 

[cdavis]

trux,

Being angry at someone who died on your watch is very common and very human. Just ask any group of people who had a hard time taking care of another who was dying or a group of people who had to clean up after a suicide. It may not be universal, but its close, and for good reason.

Connor

 

[trux]

Being angry at someone who died on your watch is very common and very human. Just ask any group of people who had a hard time taking care of another who was dying or a group of people who had to clean up after a suicide. It may not be universal, but its close, and for good reason.

I am very well aware of this, having some experience too. I was rather pointing to a paradox that is coming out from this discussion. It would seem that diving solo is OK for every individual (since he will never clean up after himself in case he dies), but it is bad for everyone else than the specific individual.

This looked quite strange, and that's why I am glad Bill explained it closer. I did not understand the criticism of diving solo at the dead buddy, when Bill apparently dove solo too. After Bill's explanation, I understand beter that it was not a criticism of diving solo, but rather of pushing the edge too far.

 

[laminar]

Bill and Jon,

Thanks for sharing so honestly.

I think that by far the bigger problem is people who are too comfortable with the ocean and diving. Its the highly skilled divers who suffer from SWB.

We just had one in SoCal last month, and everyone said what a great diver he was and what an exceptional breath hold he had.

Was this person a great breath holder only, or would you say that he dove with desire to seek understanding of his limits and the unpredictability of the ocean? Not sure which you mean. I've seen several freedivers who are "better" than I am show little respect or understanding of the ocean. To them it's just in the background on their way to achieving their goals.

Nevertheless, getting too comfortable presents a difficult paradox. One the one hand I feel that knowing that the ocean is completely unpredictable, but full of signs if you are open to them, but never to be be taken for granted and understanding that breath holding is an art, not a science and then learning with those things in mind is vital to being a long-lived freediver or water enthusiast. On the other, I know that confidence in our tools of the trade, our past experience, our training, our personal bests can lead us down the wrong path. In my case, at this point in my life, I would always err on the side of caution and a longer learning curve with less risk. However, humans are impatient, eager to be successful and admired. Some risks are simply not known until too late. Like when I experienced a terrible lung squeeze and felt like I was not going to make it for about 5 minutes after surfacing. That close-call was precipitated by a desire to go deeper in a hurry. That was a wake up call for me. I was lucky, I guess.

But it made me want to know as much about the ocean as possible and about my body and how it works underwater. And I also realized that I needed to abandon some goals so that intuition and learning how to be in the ocean came to me more subconsciously than consciously. (I don't think I've explained this well enough :duh )

Scuba divers, in my books, are a perfect example of how a lack of understanding of their environment and selves can produce accidents. They are very often horribly uncomfortable in the water, can't swim and panic if they anything goes wrong. I've seen this so often in open water classes here in Vancouver. This is just asking for trouble. Scuba divers should be competent swimmers at the very least.

I think scuba divers could benefit a great deal from water skills training before getting certified and knowing how to survive if their gear fails or things go awry. Ideally, this would involve freediving and surface swimming training.

Pete

 

[ocean_314]

I think that by far the bigger problem is people who are too comfortable with the ocean and diving. Its the highly skilled divers who suffer from SWB.


This is very true to comfortable can make someone cocky and that uneccessary and stupid risks
We had a very experenced diver get eaten by a great white a few years ago. Everyone told him that he was shark bait where he was diving but he was cocky and paid the price. To me the words experenced diver means that he respects the ocean and is smart enough not to take uneccessary risks. Showing off how deep one can dive and not respecting your limits is not what i call experenced no matter how long he has been diving.

 

[Fondueset]

It may be a question of how we define 'skill'. Skill is often understood as overcoming - willing past limits - extending capacities - efficiency; all in the context of the loop between the ostensbily discreet entity we take ourselves to be and the various abstractions we create to measure ourselves against.

What if we regard skill as the totality of our relationship with everything? A function, in part, of our capacity to 'listen' and be moved.

 

[efattah]

Its the highly skilled divers who suffer from SWB.

I have a rather controversial opinion on that. In my opinion, the very fact that a diver suffered a blackout shows that he lacks skill. Having had numerous blackouts under controlled conditions myself, I absolutely do not buy the 'no warning' theory. There are countless things you can do and sense to minimize your risk of a blackout.

So, the way I see it, blackout during unsupervised diving occurs almost exclusively to unskilled divers. Skill at freediving has nothing to do with depth or time. The real skill is how to survive, regardless of adverse conditions or events.

This is why it is very good to have a skilled buddy. A skilled buddy is someone who knows how to keep himself alive. So, if you are separated from your skilled buddy, you don't instantly have to shake from worry -- you know that he is an expert at common sense diving & survival.

A good example was last weekend, when Laminar & I went diving. There was a gale blowing, and the location was current-critical. Huge seas were breaking off submerged islands and rocks. We knew it was not the safest environment, and we also knew with almost complete certainty that we would get separated. We did get separated, and ended up exiting the ocean at two completely different sites several km apart. At one point I was trying to swim against a 1m/s current, having to squeeze between submerged islands and rocks without getting crushed by the huge swells. The only possible way to make progress was via underwater sprint dynamics, and it took 22 consecutive underwater sprint swims over a distance of about 800m to steer clear of this danger area. In the back of my mind I knew that I had long since lost Laminar and figured he had taken the other route, with the current, around a far away point to a different dive site. Eventually, when I got out of the water, the first thing I did was get over to that other dive site where I expected him to show up. I had very little to worry about. Despite the poor conditions I had every confidence in his ability to stay alive. I found him just where I expected. He was also looking for me, and also had a similar confidence in my survival ability.

So, in summary, I'd say that 'skill' in freediving or any ocean sport involves primarily the skill to function and survive.

 

[laminar]

It may be a question of how we define 'skill'. Skill is often understood as overcoming - willing past limits - extending capacities - efficiency; all in the context of the loop between the ostensbily discreet entity we take ourselves to be and the various abstractions we create to measure ourselves against.-fondueset

Exactly. That is what I'm getting at.

 

[laminar]

A personal best or a record, on a line, in controlled conditons, is a performance at most. Other skills may be learned along the way, but that is not guaranteed. I would much rather dive with a recreational freediver who has been diving regularly for five years to 10-15m, than with an 80m diver who never dives unless there's a decent line or warm water.

 

[wes]

I am an engineer and have ben very fortunate to engineer, design and actually make things most of my life and career. My design philosophy is "everything is perfect when everything is perfect". This does not mean that everything has to be perfect, nor that if something is not perfect it is bad or wrong. It does however definitely mean that if something is not perfect, no matter how much you or anyone else wants it to be perfect it won't be.

Putting that into practice means working to make everything perfect, every time, with the knowing from experience that some thing will always go wrong and that if one thing goes wrong as you are building something (like you twist the head off a bolt or cut a bit too far into an metal beam on assembling something) that is OK and you can go ahead building as everything else is perfect. However if one bolt breaks, then another, then the I beams don't really fit and then the holes aren't lined up and need to be redrilled then you say well, lots of things aren't perfect and we are going to stop and take this apart and fix it and do it right and try again. Sometimes after all these problems occur people still want to ask me, well why do we have to do this again and then I get to say, well its because I am the engineer and usually they don't say anything else.

Now I don't know how this will sound when you read it, maybe arrogant or egotistical I don't know, though its the way my brain works and its worked out to be a very safe way. I think we all go thru these internal arguments with ourselves when we freedive alone, I am cold should I go in, these fins are a bit loose, should I still go out, I really want to dive down and touch the anchor at the end of that rope even though it looks pretty deep etc. The point of this post and this philosophy is that if you strive to make everything perfect or the best it can be, then you have the luxury of doing the occasional "stupid" thing, one at a time, and once in a while, and you will still be OK. If you don't worry about getting things right or paying attention then you can't ever do anything stupid without taking a huge risk. Some people don't pay attention to details like how their body really feels inside and are scared and worried alot of the time so nevery take risks, and they really should be scared and worried as this makes their situation more safe. It's very different though, than working to make things perfect and paying attention to details and having a large margin to work with and feeling comfortable and confident and at ease. When I did my PFI intermediate course in HI this past month, that was my goal, to make personal best dives while being and feeling, comfortable, confident and at ease which I did and it rocked. I had lots of margin left and I did a PB 5:45 min static and a PB 43m CW dive. The PFI guys helped make it easy but that is part of having things perfect, having a good team to work with and being in "good" situations. I have rambled a bit here, not sure how to wrap this up toward freediving alone except to say,

PAY ATTENTION to all that you can, all the time, then you can really relax.

Thanks you all for sharing and listening too - Cheers Wes

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Was this person a great breath holder only, or would you say that he dove with desire to seek understanding of his limits and the unpredictability of the ocean? Not sure which you mean. I've seen several freedivers who are "better" than I am show little respect or understanding of the ocean. To them it's just in the background on their way to achieving their goals.

I never met him. I was only quoting what others said about him.

I agree that skill can have many meanings. In this case, I guess I meant physically skilled. Beginners who are having trouble making 25 feet are not the victims of SWB. Its typically someone who has been at it a while, can reach fairly impressive depths for long bottom times, and is confident and aggressive. But this does not guarantee judgement.

 

[fcallagy]

Eric,
I think this is where the skills come in and what others have mentioned about being skilful enough to say yes i/we can handle these weather conditions in a safe manner where as I would ( due to not being as skilful ) say I ain't getting diving today and avoid the situation. Not taking a shot at you guys just wondering what was the justifaction in going in to the sea when all the signs seemed to be saying leave it to another day.

 

[ocean_314]

To set yourself up for risk of life and limb, then you condsider that skill and sport to undue the risk that you put yourself in is not skill its stupidty. Life has enough natural hazzards that you dont need to make more.

 

[laminar]

facllagy,

Valid question. The outing in rough seas was indeed a learning experience. Although we had expected to get separated, we realized we had not talked the scenario through enough beforehand.

Also, what Eric is describing is wind-swell from a fetch of about 100km, not huge ocean rollers. So the waves were 6ft wind chop at most with the occasional bigger set. Yes, the rocks were dangerous. And, as it turned out, we had different strategies to navigate them.

What we should have discussed in more detail was these options. I was more inclined and confident to let the surface current take me downwind to a known diving site with an easy exit (sheltered from the wind and current), rather than fighting against it to make it back to our original spot. I have been in seas much rougher than that before, and while anything can happen, I cut back my dives in terms of depth and time significantly to allow for a mouthfull of water, or a bonk on the head from debris. Being in the wind chop was adrenalizing, so it was fun to be out in the middle of it.

Eric wanted to return to our original spot so that if I came looking for him at the spot and spotted his equipment taken, I could probably assume that he had exited the water. If not, I would continue my search downwind.

Please understand that we look out for each other as best we can, and will always be looking to improve our dive plan, but we are solo divers diving together. The alternative is to have a false sense of security (oh, I'm on the surface watching for him, so I'll be able to save him!) and very stressful and tense dive sessions. The whole point of this thread for me is to discuss how we manage our own safety alone and with others and how to improve that.

I think what I've learned from this dive session in particular is that we have different assumptions and risk assessments, just like anyone would, and we need to discuss them before going in. I have a lot more experience in surf, rough seas and wind chop than Eric does (from surfing, windsurfing, and open water swimming), whereas he is a stronger freediver than me. I saw little extra danger in the wind chop, except the rocks, which I steered clear of by taking making a wide berth on the initial pass on the way out from the start point.

Another thing to discuss: How do you experience situations that challenge your skills and call upon problem-solving and resourcefulness if your risk tolerance is too high? For example, can anyone learn how to swim in rough seas without trying it first in slightly less rough seas first? Or more pointedly, should new divers ONLY learn with a buddy or can they learn solo from a book or video or workshop and develop these strategies for managing themselves?

Discuss...

 

[Fondueset]

Sort of tangental - but I also often dive in fairly heavy chop. Here in Lake Michigan and the bay where I dive we sometimes get large waves but mostly they are notable for their frequency and abruptness - very choppy due to all the reflective surfaces. I've had days where I was climbing out on a ladder, reached and grabbed a rung level with the surface and found myself hanging by my arm. It's a blast and the biggest dangers are getting hit by a boat that doesn't see your flag in the trough, or getting bashed into rocks or a breakwall. (sometimes a little quease from the constant up and down of sudden swells) Personally I enjoy it. I also like the contrast between intense surface action and the quiet at depth.

On another note:

My best dive times, consistently, seem to occur when I begin to get chilled. I also noticed that my mask tended to leak at these times - but realized its because I can feel a good dive coming and start smiling. I also dive without a guage or watch - and I never compare dives from day to day or moment to moment in any competitive sense. I think is a good thing but I'd still like a guage - I give myself license to be completely picky about dive gear however, so I have to wait untill I can spring for an F1.

 

[cdavis]

Good question, Laminar.

To me, it is a bit of both. It is definately possible to learn a lot from a book, video, DB, etc, but not everything can be conveyed and there is no substitute for experiance. My advice to a newbie who wants to recreationally freedive, has access to books and DB, but no buddy, is: go for it, carefully. Just recognize that it is very easy to get dangerously out of your skill level and that an experianced buddy or teacher is the key to diving safely. Some things, like PBs for depth or distance and wet statics should never be attempted alone. I guess examples are the best way to show the diference between when you need a teacher and when not.


For example, my early experiance with diving was: read a book, borrow some gear and go spearing, alone. Worked fine, almost totaly safe, but I was only in 10 feet of water. Years later, DB came along. I learned a bunch and tried some 30 meter diving, much much deeper than ever before. Worked fine, but it was real clear that the rules were different for that kind of diving. It seemed much more dangerous and I felt the need for some expert teachers. A PFI clinic supplied more than I could ever possibly have learned by myself and later saved the hide of unirdna.
As another example, having body surfed almost all my life,I happily and (I think) safely body surf the biggest surf I can find in Florida (10 ft face), but I would not try middle sized Hawaiian surf without working up to it slowly and finding a teacher to surf with who knew the conditions. Pacific surf is very different from Atlantic. There are just too many things that have the potential to kill you if you don't know what they are. I don't think that kind of thing can be taught out of a book, etc.

Connor