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Herbert all records man?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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fpernett

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2001
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According to AIDA web page in the next months (sep-oct) Herbert Nitsch will try 14 times to brake world records in allmost all categorys:

Spetses, Greece: Constant Weight, Unassisted Constant Ballast (he respect the -65m of David, and will go for more), Free Inmersion, Variable Weight, No-limits, Dynamic with and without fins.
Hurghada, Egypt: The Same

I think this is big physical stress, and wonder how will manage the high risk of DCS.

It will be good to have his input here.

Anyway the best luck for the flying fish!!
 

ivan

looking for deeper water
Jan 26, 2002
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hi

The mans a inhuman machine thats how he will cope with the physical stress :D

cheers
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
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Herbert has done this several times before. In 2002, in spain, he announced 5 records (no-limits, FI, CW, variable, static). In the end, he made one attempt at FI (92m w/samba), and perhaps 10 attempts in static, without much success. Still, there is no reason NOT to announce every record in the book. Kirk Krack is trying to enforce a 'fee' for every announcement, to discourage athletes from announcing records in every category.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
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Originally posted by efattah
Kirk Krack is trying to enforce a 'fee' for every announcement, to discourage athletes from announcing records in every category.
Is there a reason why announcing records in every catagory is bad for freediving?
 

Shadowkiller

Digital Hunter
Jul 30, 2002
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Originally posted by DeepThought
Is there a reason why announcing records in every catagory is bad for freediving?

A case of the boy who cried Wolf?

If every diver announces dives in every category, then doesnt deliver, who's gonna care when the next set of "attempts" get announced? :hmm
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
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On the other hand, you are raising the total cost of making a record, which with the doping test, it is too high anyway.

And doesn't a person needs to do a prerequisite depth/time/distance bedore he/she can declare a record attempt?
Not many people can cry wolf in that case. :D
 

fpernett

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2001
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Remember the last time when he did (the same day) 3 immersions to 100 meters.

But still is quite difficult to imagine a person to go for 7 records in just 6 days.

I think he will stay with the categories he has more experience with.
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
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You don't have to make a prerequisite to announce the record. You only need a prerequisite in ONE event, one week before the attempt, for the judges to come.

So, Mr. Joe Nobody, in his first day of freediving, could announce 10 records, and they would be listed. One week before the attempts, if he hadn't made ANY prerequisites (not even one), then the judges wouldn't go.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Originally posted by fpernett
Yes, and some respect the -65 mark of David Lee

Can always count on the forum for all the cool gossip :)

The part that twists my titties the most is this article http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/stig1.html
.....

"He knows he has to go deeper than 65 (bloody well better know it ) but at the same time has little respect for an organization were it seems like ”the trainer is judging the athlete”.
"
jerkit.gif


Which makes me think..."Hmmmmm, Of the 5 records I've done I can't ever remember my trainer ever being a judge for me." You know, we (me and my organizing committee) go through all the added expense of flying two FREE judges to verify all my records. One of which sits at the goal depth to verify arrival and the other at the surface (in the water with freediving gear) to take the tag on the arrival.

Sure I know AIDA sends two judges...but where are these judges located? on the surface! woooohhhhoooooooo. Then the record is later verified by video tape in some pricks office miles and miles away. "Ohh, yes, it's good...I see he made it to the plate on the video..It's all good."
cell.gif


I guess this could go on and on and turn into the never ending political debate...I really hate that. Just dive your dive man.

So after a I have a discussion with Topi he requested his attempt depth to be change to 66m. Good for him but I still don't respect that he put 62m at first.

As for Wolfman Buggermeister of Germany...I only have one word (gesture) for you
moon.gif
Go ahead and do your 62m (if you manage) and we'll put you right up on the shelf with Deiter Baughman and his 33m world record.

But really...on a serious note...good luck to all the guys going for the UCB record...Even Stig...After all, what is sport without competition?...Stig, watch those ears, after 62m it's a killer down there!...And it sucks to swim back unassisted with a busted eardrum and vertigo from 63m. Speaking from experience...(that statement implies no psychologically damaging effects towards Stig)
rollinglaugh.gif


ban_me.gif


As for me, I stay dormant till early next year. :wave
 
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DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
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Originally posted by ApneaBlue
As for Wolfman Buggermeister of Germany...I only have one word (gesture) for you
moon.gif
Go ahead and do your 62m (if you manage) and we'll put you right up on the shelf with Deiter Baughman and his 33m world record.
I met Wole (Wolfram) in Dahab a few months ago, and I must say he is misrepresented here.
Have you thought that going for 62m might be a sign of being humble instead of saying that your 65 say nothing?
Wole did 61m unassisted in Dahab before I got there. And he was thinking of doing that again in Cyprus.
Then you did your 65m+, and he was very sad, and I heard him saying that he must admit that you are a better diver than him, and that he can't do 65m now. I hope I'm not revealing anything that he wants to keep quiet, I just wanna state as a witness that it is not a matter of "well, it's not AIDA it doesn't count" kind of disrespect. There's an AIDA record, if someone wanna break it, let it be. I don't think it's morraly wrong to do so and not aiming for the ultimate respected world record. Afterall, the AIDA record can only broken a number of limited times before it'll get to the same level as the FREE one.
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
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Originally posted by DeepThought
I met Wole (Wolfram) in Dahab a few months ago, and I must say he is misrepresented here.
Have you thought that going for 62m might be a sign of being humble instead of saying that your 65 say nothing?
Wole did 61m unassisted in Dahab before I got there. And he was thinking of doing that again in Cyprus.
Then you did your 65m+, and he was very sad, and I heard him saying that he must admit that you are a better diver than him, and that he can't do 65m now. I hope I'm not revealing anything that he wants to keep quiet, I just wanna state as a witness that it is not a matter of "well, it's not AIDA it doesn't count" kind of disrespect. There's an AIDA record, if someone wanna break it, let it be. I don't think it's morraly wrong to do so and not aiming for the ultimate respected world record. Afterall, the AIDA record can only broken a number of limited times before it'll get to the same level as the FREE one.

Well, when its posted it seems as a sign of disrespect...in my eyes anyway. Topi also said the same thing..He thought he was doing it to be modest and not full of ego to post something so great over the AIDA record...

And if someone just wants to break the AIDA record that's like trying to hurry and get someting in there so you can say "Hey, look at me...I got a world record!" then whisper in a low voice "but some other guy has dove deeper with another organization..

If the AIDA record goes to 70 which I feel it will...There is no way in hell I am going to say...Well FREE, put me up there for 66m! They would never stop me from doing this but they would suggest that I attemp something deeper than the current AIDA record. I don't know, everyone may mean it differently but it sure isn't viewed that way through my eyes.
 
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Yasemin

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Oct 20, 2002
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I don't think it's an humble act to dive shallower than David's record and say "i respect him" but then claim that you have a world record diving to 62. It could be humble if you attempt that in a competition but not claim that it is THE world record, just because the position of different organization allow such hole, while everyone knows the performance by David...

On another note, regarding Stig's article saying FREE is an organization where trainer judges the athlete, that's very wrong. Rudi is one of the most fair person i've ever seen when it comes to this. And that's why we go through such an expense to bring judges from around the world where according to him a judge from Turkey that is an old friend of mine even should not be the judge for my record, while it could obviously be so convinient and i cheap if i could have that. Besides the 8 times i set world records, I was disqualified 6 times. The first one was in 1999 where i was attempting the constant ballast world record. I came to the surface and had a mild blackout while in the mean time the judge Stefano Makula got the tag from my hand before i exactly blacked out. Stefano Makula in case you don't know is an italian record holder from the older times, breaking Jacques Mayol's record back then and a very respected personality in freediving. I was disqualified of course, and succeded on another attempt a week after that. But just because Makula said later that he had taken the tag from me and the performance was valid and nobody asked him his opinion before disqualifying me, he was taken the judge certificate away by Rudi as the president right after that event.

Another disqualification was in 2001 when i attempted the 40 meter unassisted dive for the first time. I held the rope twice at the bottom while retrieving the tag by mistake. I told it to Rudi at the surface that i had to repeat the dive, it was an extremely mild thing and the judge didn't notice it. But we told the judge about it, he realized the mistake, there i was disqualified again, having to attempt the dive again the next day. And this change in the plan cost us the 72 meter constant record, because of the delay causing the 72 meter attempt to be on terrible weather conditions and we had to cancel.

Another time, again i came out of the water, held the bar near the platform, took off my noseclip, and right as a gave the tag had a blackout. Again Rudi was the first one to disqualify me before the judge even gave his opinion. And imagine this is what i get by my husband and trainer. Both Topi and David witnessed a few of these cases.

So please guys watch what you say about the fairness of FREE without really knowing about it, and while all of us athletes competing with FREE have to go through so much effort and expense to bring judges that can dive to the bottom, that are not friends or coaches, that are not rivals, friends of rivals and while making sure that we have videos and graphs of all our dives from surface to bottom available to everybody to see all the time...

Safe dives,

Yasemin Dalkilic
 
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cebaztian

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Oct 3, 2003
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Yasemin

Just wanted to make you aware of that its MY article ABOUT Stig - not "his article" as you wrote.

Myself I have never doubted the integrity of your judged.

But...

A few comments

1) Seems like Rudi has final say in all records - does seem to be that the trainer in a way has a say in the judging of his athlete. Or?

2) Why where Yasemins two records deemed invalid when she BOd AFTER handing over the tag. Does it not say in the FREE rules that it is enough to do the dive and deliver the tag?
Does not FREE believe in their own rules?

3) Aida does not allow LMC. How much deeper can you swim if you are allowed to push yourself closer to the LMC state (like FREE does)?
(In static my opnion is that it is about 10-20 seconds)


Sebastian

http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/stig1.html

Your post has been edited - Strplyr
 
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Yasemin

Well-Known Member
Oct 20, 2002
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1) Seems like Rudi has final say in all records - does seem to be that the trainer in a way has a say in the judging of his athlete. Or?
Rudi does not have a final say in all records. First of all only the judge at the bottom can decide if i made it there and had any underwater violations or not, and the surface judge is the one taking the tag from me and making the final decision, BUT, in those particular cases that you mention, although the tag passed from my hands to the judge's hands before I BO'd, Rudi was totally convinced that it was more a case where the judges TOOK the tag from me rather than receiving it, and this he felt was not what the rules refer to, so he brought this to the judges attention and they agreed that the performances should be invalidated...And after all, Rudi wrote the FREE rules so he knows then better than anybody else, whic is why the judges would consult with him, a very normal thing. I think that as the president of the organization, this shows the level of his integrity very well. That is also why I think Topi particularly wanted Rudi to be one of the FREE judges sent for his 60 meter record, even when Rudi was David's trainer, because Topi was convinced that if he got the record, Rudi would give it to him, plain and simple. There was never a doubt or a question about other "loyalties" coming into place, and frankly Sebastian, I am surprised to hear you say that because you spent almost a month with us so you should know very well the way we do things, and if I am not mistaken, you were there to witness one of those attempts where I got disqualified...All this says a lot about the integrity and strictness with which FREE applies its rules. But then, for those who don't know this, even if the judges accept a record at FREE, the athlete has the right to request the record not be accepted, which is what both Rudi and I would have done under those conditions had we been given the record...

(2) Why where Yasemins two records deemed invalid when she BOd AFTER handing over the tag. Does it not say in the FREE rules that it is enough to do the dive and deliver the tag?
Does not FREE believe in their own rules? )

I already have answered part of your question above. A judge must come close enough to the diver after the surfacing so that the athelte does not need to swim and get exhausted to deliver the tag, but what a judge cannot do is TAKE the tag from the diver, the diver must deliver the tag to the judge completely in control, and obviously, I was not in control of myself at that time. I don't think the judges were trying to "cheat" but simply that they were trying to do their job in the quickest and most effective way and this where they actually sort of went against the rules. One of those judges was explained the differences and he understood, while the other one (Makula) insisted that this was a good performance and because of those unfixable differences in mentality he was taken off the judges' list. I hope this point is clear enough...and obviously, this should show that FREE believes in its rules but that they are convinced that rules can also be misinterpreted and that's what Rudi was trying to avoid.

3) Aida does not allow LMC. How much deeper can you swim if you are allowed to push yourself closer to the LMC state (like FREE does)?
(In static my opnion is that it is about 10-20 seconds)

If we start talking about this again, we will never finish, and in the end, it doesn't matter much what you or I think. You are obviously a believer in the AIDA system and I believe in the FREE system, which is why we do our diving under those organizations. Whether you agree with the FREE system or not, you should at least understand it, because as I remember you and Rudi spent hours and hours discussing all those things back in Greece. For one last time, AIDA does not "allow" LMC but by doing that they have disqualified many, many, many people that had just finished totally acceptable performances and it is impossible for any judge to agree on what's over the limit and what is not, so that's how AIDA judges performances and I believe it is far from being a fair way of going about it. What FREE does is allow LMC or whatever else as long as the diver can complete a set of actions, like delivering the tag to the judge, at the end of the dive as long as the diver does this in complete control and never sinks below the surface, and in my opinion this is amuch more logical and fair way to judge am performance, especially things like world records where we are supposed to be right at the edge, but again, these things are all well known and you simply need to choose which one makes more sense to you and that's it...If you look at it, what FREE does is similar to the way sports like trach and field, swimming, and many more are judged, where the performance is measured from a "start" to the "finish" and what happens afterwards is irrelevant, and what AIDA does is more like ice skating or gymnastics, where points are given for beauty and style...you decide which one is more suitable for a sport like ours and then go with it, plain and simple...

Regards,

Yasemin Dalkilic
 
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cebaztian

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Oct 3, 2003
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2 out of 3

Good answers.

Originally posted by Yasemin
1) a case where the judges TOOK the tag from me rather than receiving it,

That explains it.

Originally posted by Yasemin
1) I am surprised to hear you say that because you spent almost a month with us so you should know very well the way we do things,

I dont doubt FREE judges integrity one second. I have as you say visited you and seen how you do things.

Originally posted by Yasemin
1)You are obviously a believer in the AIDA system and I believe in the FREE system,

Its not that simple. I believe that FREE has its place in the freediving community - especially since you are very beneficial for AIDA´s progress. By showing an alternative.
Aida has a problem - the LMC rule - it has to find its solution one day - i dont believe FREE has solved it. But thats another thread.

Pity you didnt want to join me and speculate in my question number three.

Anyone else?

Sebastian
 

Herbert

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Sep 9, 2003
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According to Aida rules, one is only allowed to attempt a WR if you announce it 6 weeks before and fulfil a prerequisite dive 3 months, latest 1 week before in each discipline.
This is causing me some troubles:
When I announce, I have no idea of which WR I am capable of attempting a WR.
I always hope to get more training then I usually get. In most cases my training starts only ~10 days before the attempt, so I have 3 days for the prerequisite dives, which is way to short.
Very often it depends on the type of safety I have on what discipline I can train safely.

The pool disciplines I announce because I might have troubles with my ears (like last years attempts after Cyprus).

When I made only one depth attempt in Tenerife, it was only possible to do that one dive, because of many different problems (and we almost had to cancel this one too, because of ~ 70 km/h wind).

Wolle was afraid of all those discussions and wanted to do more then Free’s WR, but he originally planned it in a lake in Austria which doesn’t allow more the 62 (63)m.

I had ~ 5 failed attempts (one in competition) do to mild LMCs, I was in total control, but these dives are not good according Aida rules. Now if this would be the same with Free, then there should be no difference in the WR, but I think that at least 3 of my failures would have been a WR for Free.

I never know how close a dive will be to LMC, so this will never influence my depth decision on a WR attempt, but it is a fact (for me) that that chances when I push the limits are a lot bigger to have a small LMC, then a clean Aida dive.

I assume that the difference in determination of a clean dive for Free is about 5% more (depth, distance, time) then an Aida dive.

I definitely do NOT think that a Free record is no good, but I do think that there is a difference, which people should respect.

Anyway, I hope Aida drops that f..ing LMC rule soon!
 
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