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Herbert all records man?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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david

@ david

wolle's announcement was limited by the depth limit of the lake where the comp was planned (it was cancelled eventually). therefore his announcement of 62 m naturally shows up as a wr attempt on the aida site. he wrote in a personal message to me that he was upset by that depth limitation and that he would have liked to dive +66m.

i have had the opportunity to meet and dive with some first class freedivers so far. wolle is surely a 'character' and not easy to take for many people, but his support of the sport and fellow divers and his respect for other diver's achievements is certainly world class.

in my opinion your comment was unjustified. maybe you didn't know the background but that shouldn't excuse bad attitude.

i don't want to stir shit up here, i think your own achievements are wicked, but i also feel like speaking out for a fellow freediver, who, as michael put it is 'misrepresented here'.

safe and enjoyable dives to everyone.

roland

:cool:
 
Re: david

Originally posted by immerlustig
@ david

wolle's announcement was limited by the depth limit of the lake where the comp was planned (it was cancelled eventually). therefore his announcement of 62 m naturally shows up as a wr attempt on the aida site.

For sure david's wording was of the scale but argumenting with a too shallow lake? - are your serious :confused:

Anyways I really wish Wolle good luck for his attempts. Too bad people like the infamous Christian BO Redl are involved in this event...


BTW: Redl still openly claims to be a multiple world record holder in freediving. ...
http://tauchen.nullzeit.at/Content....e-taucher_christian_redl_geben_ihre_partn.php
 
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Hi Herbert,
I have always found that training for a certain discipline is really specialized. Like line assisted, equipment assisted, and unassisted the training for these are really different muscle groups that need to be focused on and workd hard...When you announce in all categories I am wondering what your training is like. How do you prepare for something with such a full plate? Especially since you have a full time job...I find it hard enough to train for the unassisted and cant't imagine prepping for a goal as lofty as this one...Hope you can find a way to explain without disclosing any of your trade secrets :)

end Herbert message.

begin Wolfram message.
And about my words...I don't take back a single one...If you are attempting a WR and the depth you announce is below the true WR depth (regardless of organization), you get no respect from me. So to say you are doing it that way because you are limited by the lake is really no reason. just go somewhere else and save face man! If you can'y, then do it and have it verified as a national record. I really hope Wolfram will find somewhere else to do this dive and be able to make 66m+. Everyone who has the abilities should be given a chance...

Everybody be safe.

Dave
 
David,
In truth everyone who has the abillities is not given the chance !

I did a 63m no-fins dive in training early April this year, before your successful record. I was given the chance to go for an AIDA world record during the world record event of some big name freedivers but in the end was denied by their sponsors :-(
Here in Australia there are no judges and no comp freediving, no sponsors, money.... competitions of any sort.

I respect your 65m World record, I know you did the depth and it is the true WR. At the same time I fell uneasy with FREE's organisation because most of the record holders are friends or people being trained by Rudi himself. I don't think for a second I'm in the same league in no-fins as you, Topi, Herbert or Stig, but am frustrated that it comes down to money or being friends with someone to be able to attempt a world record. I watched Wolle do some no-fins dynamics and no-fins dives in Cyprus, and frankly his technique was lacking. Being able to do the sort of depth's he is doing despite it means he has some huge potential. I know Herbert and Stig are able to do 70m+ if they try in no-fins and I feel like I am totally out of the running once they are done. I wish it was all as simple as qualifying on your abillity alone. Then I would be quite happy coming 3rd or 4th in the world in a no-fins event.

Cheers,
Wal.
 
Originally posted by Walrus
I did a 63m no-fins dive in training early April this year, before your successful record.


Awesome performance :duh
You really seem to be the Australien Walrus ;)


I was given the chance to go for an AIDA world record during the world record event of some big name freedivers but in the end was denied by their sponsors :-(

That's really bizarre and sad to hear. Herbert seems to be in a similar situation in spetses but let's wait and see.
Money, even the really small amounts involved in freediving, seems to corrode fairness and character.
 
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Walrus,

I can second that. Remember the commotion in Cyprus when Wolle wanted to do a no-fins WR attempt dive (the reason he came to Cyprus in the first place after beeing promised he could do this by the organisor) and the local judges would not allow him to do this. After heavy discussions , official complaints and hairpulling stupid arguments they finally allowed him to do a for him easy 56 meters, which he did without pulling a mussle.
So it is definately not always up to the athlete and sometimes you just have to take what you can get. In this case a lesser dive.
 
Since CNF / Unassisted is my favourite discipline I really appreciate this discussion. And also that it includes both FREE and Aida people. We should all be thankfull for FREE "starting" this disciplin a few years back.

Herbert guess that the difference between LMC or a dive in mental control is 5%, more or less equals what I have found in some trials in STA & DYN.

That means that you could go further in a FREE record than in a Aida record. David Lee´s 65 meters would in this scale be worth 62 as a Aida record. I dont think though that David ever has been in the LMC zone while delivering the tag - or?

THIS - David is one good reason to not compare FREE records with Aida! As Herbert said - he has done one or two performances that would have been approved by FREE but wasnt by Aida.

Sebastian
 
These are my thoughts:

Comparing CNF / CW:
I think the ratio is somewhere from 1.1 to 1.5 depending on the athletes body type and skill. It's hard to get a ratio in general.

LMC rule compared to "deliver the tag":
In my opinion you can have an LMC and be in mental control BUT you can also be out of mental control without signs of LMC for an observer. I'm not an expert but I have seen divers comin up and looking fresh but afterwards the diver claims he was out of control.
To say a percentage is probably possible for a certain diver but in general it's probably impossible.

Both cases are interesting though:)
 
You know...I too think that it is sad that people who can are held back by funding...And don't think for a second that you can run out and do a record on friendship alone...If I wasn't able to raise the money for my records I would not have been given the chance no matter who I knew...And that I think is sad that so many divers with the will and abilities to do so are just left to watch...

Wally, nice 63m UCB...That is definately no depth to be toyed with and I hope you had ample safety for that dive.

As for the FREE athletes being friends of Rudi or Judges or whatever...You have to be talking about me and Yasemin...I am good friends with Rudi who has grown to be like my brother over the last 4 years. Hell, he's Yasemin's hubby. But for me, it was not till after my second record till we became friends...And same for Yas...She didn't start being "friends" with Rudi till after a couple of her records...It's just that Rudi didn't decide to be freinds with Erez & Trevor and then marry Topi...Nor is he friends with Bevan Dewar and all the other people holding national records under Free...I'm just a loveable, likeable kinda guy ;) So for you to say that everyone who dives under FREE is a friend of Rudi does that mean it's only Yasemin and I who dive under FREE and you discredit everyone mentioned above? I think you just see us (Me & Yas) the most because we were "blessed" with sponsorship to dive every year. So don't think for a second that this is how it works.

But then again...There will alwasy be people out there who don't belive in the FREE system...Just like I don't belive in the AIDA one :)
 
Again, the LMC thing is a bitch...I think there should be a bucket or something that when you get to the surface you can put the tag in (with time limit)....Once it is in the bucket you can even die but your record would live on...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jon
A bucket - what a lovely idea.
Lets have it 10 feet above the surface and make the tag round.
;-)
 
Point #1:
Difference in performance when LMC is allowed/not allowed

For me, the difference is 0%, because I have found a method to avoid LMC. In my case, I either come up clean, or BO. Don't think that I am 'hiding' the LMC, I stopped trying that long ago. In my case there is just no shaking or anything.

In order for this to happen you need to manipulate your brain chemistry by training, meditation and diet, so that your GABA levels are high, and your GABA receptors are in good function, and your glutamate levels are low, and your glutamate receptors are asleep. If you manage it, you can never LMC, only BO. This is because when GABA dominates over glutamate, no seizure can ever occur; this is the principle discovered by epilepsy researchers, and it has carried into hypoxic seizure research if you read up on it. As you approach BO, your glutamate levels soar, and your GABA levels tumble; when the glutamate activity is far higher than the GABA activity, a seizure (shaking) happens. But, this can be prevented if GABA was much more active than glutamate before the apnea began. Then, in that case, there will be a blackout without a seizure.

I only figured out how to do this a few months ago, but after MANY tests with oximeters as well as in the pool and at local competitions, I kissed samba/LMC goodbye forever. Keep in mind that it is still possible for me to get DQ'd from a stupid movement which is incorrectly judged as LMC.

For those interested in numbers, in the old days I would samba/LMC at SaO2 = 45-55%, and I would BO at < 45%. Once I learned to manipulate my brain chemistry, then I would be clean at SaO2 > 30%, and BO at SaO2 < 30%.

So, for me, I wouldn't be able to go any deeper/longer under FREE rules for AIDA rules.

Point #2:
Accessibility of record attempts

In my opinion, if you don't have the money, sponsorship, location, logistics, safety, etc., then you just have to wait. That is what I have been doing for more than 3 years. After my 82m record in 2001, I wanted to keep doing records in many categories. I haven't been able to go for a single record since then, even though I wanted to. So, I keep waiting. Maybe I will never get the chance to do another record. In the meantime, I don't accept explanations about the lake being too shallow, or making 'shortcuts' here and there to 'get the chance' to go for it. Just be a man like the rest of us and wait until things work your way to do it properly. Maybe we will never get an attempt, that is our problem.

Imagine if I announce a 20m no-limits record. My argument is that I don't have access to deep water, I can't afford safety scuba divers, etc., and because I don't have much money, then this 20m record should be accepted as a world record, because it is the best depth that I have access to.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Originally posted by efattah
Point #1:
Difference in performance when LMC is allowed/not allowed

For me, the difference is 0%, because I have found a method to avoid LMC. In my case, I either come up clean, or BO. Don't think that I am 'hiding' the LMC, I stopped trying that long ago. In my case there is just no shaking or anything.

In order for this to happen you need to manipulate your brain chemistry by training, meditation and diet, so that your GABA levels are high, and your GABA receptors are in good function, and your glutamate levels are low, and your glutamate receptors are asleep. If you manage it, you can never LMC, only BO. This is because when GABA dominates over glutamate, no seizure can ever occur; this is the principle discovered by epilepsy researchers, and it has carried into hypoxic seizure research if you read up on it. As you approach BO, your glutamate levels soar, and your GABA levels tumble; when the glutamate activity is far higher than the GABA activity, a seizure (shaking) happens. But, this can be prevented if GABA was much more active than glutamate before the apnea began. Then, in that case, there will be a blackout without a seizure.

I only figured out how to do this a few months ago, but after MANY tests with oximeters as well as in the pool and at local competitions, I kissed samba/LMC goodbye forever. Keep in mind that it is still possible for me to get DQ'd from a stupid movement which is incorrectly judged as LMC.

For those interested in numbers, in the old days I would samba/LMC at SaO2 = 45-55%, and I would BO at < 45%. Once I learned to manipulate my brain chemistry, then I would be clean at SaO2 > 30%, and BO at SaO2 < 30%.

So, for me, I wouldn't be able to go any deeper/longer under FREE rules for AIDA rules.

Point #2:
Accessibility of record attempts

In my opinion, if you don't have the money, sponsorship, location, logistics, safety, etc., then you just have to wait. That is what I have been doing for more than 3 years. After my 82m record in 2001, I wanted to keep doing records in many categories. I haven't been able to go for a single record since then, even though I wanted to. So, I keep waiting. Maybe I will never get the chance to do another record. In the meantime, I don't accept explanations about the lake being too shallow, or making 'shortcuts' here and there to 'get the chance' to go for it. Just be a man like the rest of us and wait until things work your way to do it properly. Maybe we will never get an attempt, that is our problem.

Imagine if I announce a 20m no-limits record. My argument is that I don't have access to deep water, I can't afford safety scuba divers, etc., and because I don't have much money, then this 20m record should be accepted as a world record, because it is the best depth that I have access to.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Eric, you never cease to amaze me at how deep you get into our physiology. You lost me at "Difference in performance when LMC is allowed/not allowed....." You are truly a dedicated individual...

If you want to do the 20m NL dive I will volunteer to safety diver for you. Free :D I feel really bad for folks that are not fortunate enough to dive the way they want to dive. I just hope and pray that sponsorship keeps coming my way so I can continue to dive. If it doesn't I will go back to recreational dive and do as you say "...wait..."
 
Hello all,

I have followed this thread with some interest, and felt that I should add my own 2 cents of input for whatever they are worth.

Sebastian,

First of all, I always found it odd that you love the unassisted category so much and when you spent 3 weeks with us when David and Yas were going for records in that category, you never, once, asked any of them or myself anything about the category, training or a technical detail, but we rather discussed about FREE and AIDA, always at your request by the way...I thought, what a waste, here is a diver who loves a category and has a genuine chance to learn from some of the best unassisted divers and their trainer and he does not take it...hmmm, what is becaue you don't respect the FREE system? But perhaps this very particular way of yours to look at technical matters is the reason why I see you endlessly attempting to come up with comparative percentages between categories and other things which truly cannot be quantified in freediving. I think you would do well in not being so concerned about how these formulas and aproximations work, which will change from person to person, from day to day, anyway and try and grasp some of the more tangible and important aspects of freeediving training, which from time to time truly seem to be within your reach and you take no advantage of it whatsoever. I remember Topi telling me how you spent some time together with him at some event and all you did was brag to him instead of trying to learn something from such a talented diver...And please, don't go around equating David's 65 meter dive to an AIDA 62 meter dive, you are being disrespectful when you say that, irrespective of whether it is due to an improper training background or whatever. Just go to the FREE site and watch the video of his record, the video that we make available after each record right away, or write to any of the judges who verified it, as we publish the judges' names and list e-mail contacts for them, or ask Stephan Whelan from Deeperblue, who was there as a reporter, but please, do not make such irresponsible statements without knowing what you're talking about...

Walt,

You don't need to be my friend to be able to attempt a record under FREE. People like David and Yasemin started by being my trainees, and as you may or may not know, I teach several courses every year and certify hundreds of students so my pool of talented trainees is rather large. That they are so close to me could perhaps explain why we share the same ideas and principles that lead us to believe in the FREE system, but trust me, no corners have been cut with them. Take Topi for example. I never met him, he was another anonymous diver who wrote to me asking for advice and, as I do with many people (including Sebastian Naslund) I invited him to come and spend some time with us in Turkey and witness Yas' record attempt. When he got there and we saw how good he was, we did all that we could to allow him to get some dives, and I personally insisted that he should attempt a world record on our money, even if it was to break David's record. In the end, when Yasemin failed both her attempts due to her pancreas tumor, we ended up organizing the whole event just so that Topi could get his first world record, and believe me, I would have done the same for you or anybody else who would have shown enough passion and interest to come all the way down to see us. Now Topi will dive under AIDA and that's just as well with me, we did not help him out of political reasons or because he was a friend, I think him and I respect each other very much but I certainly can count my friends with the fingers of one hand...

I agree with you that talent alone is not enough to allow you to attempt a world record and that's unfortunate, but at the same time, those who want it really bad will eventually succedd in finding sponsorship or any other alternate way to organize a record attempt. Look at Yasemin, she lives in Turkey, which is certainly not a rich country and without any sponsorship tradition and yet, she managed to find support after knocking on countless doors. And the same goes for David, every year he goes through hell trying to secure the money for his records, but somehow he does it, so are they the most talented? Maybe not, but they certainly deserve the records because besides the natural talent and hard training, they put in the hours and days and months at the incredibly hard, demoralizing and at times even humilliating job of convincing people to give you money. Look at Pipin, the most financially successful freediver of all times and he came from Cuba, from totally restrictive conditions and poverty, but he wanted it very bad and he got it, besides the fact tnat he really had no scruples in getting there. Of course, I know things are not so simple as this, but there are always ways to go about it. Well, you could have paid 600 dollars and come to one of our training camps and get the chance to set your 63 m WR with proper safety and judges, and it doesn't get cheaper than that...but perhaps you don't believe in the FREE system? If you don't, I totally respect that, but for the others out there, this is the same system that has made Yasemin, David and even Topi household names in freediving. Their credibility and reputation is pretty much as high as could be AND they have managed to get sponsors...So hey, if there's anything we can do to help you, let me know and we'll do our best as we do with anybody else.

I wonder if anybody has really stopped to think for one second why we created FREE...is it because we would get rich or famous or have "power" as some say? :) Please, why would we go through the trouble of setting up an organization unless we felt there was something really valuable we could offer to the community, and to whatever smaller or larger scale, we have certainly managed to do that.

Safe dives,

Rudi Castineyra
 
Hey David!

Why are you revealing our secrets here, the phenomenally "brilliant" idea of using a bucket to drop the tag in after the performance? Are you testing the market to gauge their reception? :)

No, seriously, this is what we at FREE have been considering for a while as an evolution of our verification approach at the surface. As of next year, the divers won't even need to deliver the tag to the surface judge anymore but instead they will have to place it in a container (yeah, a "bucket") that will be positioned at the same distance from the line as the diver starts the dive, and all that is required is for him/her to drop the tag there, with the judge still making sure that this is done without any help of course or that the diver is not being touched by anybody until this procedure is completed. Again, as per our thinking, a clear case of a "start" and an "end" of the performance, a clear, logical and not subjected to judging mistakes procedure. Most likely, we will start this new regulation at the Unassisted Constant Ballast competition we will hold around May-June, so all those out there who can dive 60 meters + but don't have a way to organize a record, stay tuned, this will be your chance! And although we will have a depth limit as FREE encourages, it will be 90 meters, so I think this should not be a problem...

Eric, I agree with you as well, I for one, don't remember ever experiencing LMC myself, I either made it in control or BO'd. Of course, I realize that as per AIDA rules I would have been disqualified since some of my surfacings definitely showed clear signs of stress and fatigue. Yasemin, for example, has never had a samba in the 4 years we've trained together, she either made it fresh as a lettuce or BO'd, and neither of us ever made any conscious efforts to train the brain to eliminate LMC. In her particular case, suffering from chronic anemia and having very acidic blood (never higher than 5) I can understand how the transformations her body goes through result in this, but the fact remains that many, many divers don't neccessarily go through the LMC ladder before blacking out. Then again, I have seen people who can endure tremendously long periods of LMC, the whole body shaking uncontrollably for 2-3 minutes, and during this period they were able to answer all of the questions I asked of them, including the graduation date from primary school! Alejandro Ravelo was such a diver. I use these examples just to illustrate the fact that LMC is a very open, changeable, not open to quantification, appreciation, scoring or catalogation phenomena, and as such, at least in my opinion, should not be a part of the criteria upon which something like a world record is verified.

Safe dives,
 
Originally posted by Rudi Castineyra
Hey David!

Why are you revealing our secrets here, the phenomenally "brilliant" idea of using a bucket to drop the tag in after the performance? Are you testing the market to gauge their reception? :)
........


I know, i'm sorry....you can string me up later.
whipping.gif
 
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This thread has going in a different way. But anyway interesting.
I have a question for Rudy, maybe was mis-typing, but is about the acidic blood of Yas (never higher than 5).
I never meet a live person with a blood pH below 6.8
 
a lot of words

Originally posted by Rudi Castineyra
Hello all,
First of all, I always found it odd that you love the unassisted category so much and when you spent 3 weeks with us when David and Yas were going for records in that category, you never, once, asked any of them or myself anything about the category, training or a technical detail..

Well, the simple answer is. I didnt love unassisted back then. My passion was awaken by seeing Yas and David. As for asking about training details - David informed me that you were rather "hush-hush" about them. I can assure you I learnt enough keeping my ears and eyes open (quite alot to absorb at the time). It did in the end result in me having the swedish CNF record. Which is nothing to brag about among these names and depths we are talking about.
But considering my body and my lungs and the amount of training I do - I am very pleased with my results.
I have no idea what influenced Topis view of me. I hardly met the guy. Cant remember hearing him speak even (finish people are not known for talking too much).

Originally posted by Rudi Castineyra
And please, don't go around equating David's 65 meter dive to an AIDA 62 meter dive, you are being disrespectful when you say that.. do not make such irresponsible statements without knowing what you're talking about...

There is is difference - it is disrespectful NOT to admit that you can swim deeper under FREE rule (not Eric though). But on the other hand I dont think I have seen for instance David deliver a tag in LMC state.

Regards
Sebastian

Rudi, my respect for you and FREE is untouched. You do it safer and fairer.
 
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