Herbert all records man?

[ChristianRedl]

hello everybody,

i was the main organisator of wolle's attempt in austria. the lake is only 63m and wolle has big problems with that ... everything is perfect there, only the depth :-(

now the event is canceled in austria, but wolle found a lake in germany which is deeper and he want to try the record in the middle of september, it depends on herbert´s dive in greece ...

good luck for all divers in greece!!!
chris

 

[neshamah]

hi

Is good to see "lA representation " of Freediving Organizacion here

although I don't know about the diferent freediving regulations ect

but I want to say hello to all of you

saludos Rudi im happy to see you here

Hey I have a question ? where is Ravelo now ? is he still freediving ?

 

[cebaztian]

I realized I was far to polite in my answer to Rudi.

I am when rereading Rudis post not very impressed by it.

He uses the first part describing me as a person without knowledge and not wanting to aquire it. His argument is that I didnt ask him about freediving when I met him. I wasnt there to learn freedive but for journalistic ambitions. (And it was 10 days and I did talk to David alot about freediving).

To finish of discrediting me he relays some bullshit he claims Topi said about me.

Then comes the his true agenda. Questioning my proposition that a 65 meter FREE dive could be worth 62 meters in Aida.

It should be apparent for all that the further you swim the closer you get to LMC. FREE accepts LMC, Aida doesnt. Ergo: You can swim further under FREE rules.

I have and intrest in "comparative percentages between categories and other things which truly cannot be quantified in freediving."
And also in " formulas and aproximations"

You, Rudi obviously dont have that intrest.

Sebastian



Sebastian

 

[efattah]

Sebastian,

I think what Rudi is trying to say that if you watch the video of David's 65m dive, it would have counted under AIDA rules. So David's 65m dive, under FREE rules, equals a 65m dive under AIDA rules, which means that if you want to respect David and beat his record, you need 66m. In fact, you could in some cases argue that a FREE record is harder to get, since you are not allowed to touch (guide) yourself along the descent line like many athletes such as Herbert used to do, during the descent. So, what sort of formula then? You could say that an AIDA record of 65m equals a FREE record of 62m, because in AIDA rules you are allowed to touch the descent line during the whole descent to stabilize yourself?

I have watched the videos of almost all the FREE records, and in each case I think the dive would have also been accepted by AIDA.

Many AIDA supporters say something like this:
"If the LMC rules are relaxed, then there will be hundreds of LMC's in competitions and records...."

The FREE records have proven this hypothesis false. FREE records have not been full of LMC's....

AIDA is not moving forward because of false hypotheses such as these. AIDA supporters always use such arguments as 'if we do this, then this-and-this will happen...', when in fact that is not the case. You never know until you try.



Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[cebaztian]

Well, he didnt phrase it that way, Eric.

I also think Davids records could have passed Aida.

On the other hand Herbert claims to have done deep dives that Aida did disqualify and he thinks FREE would have accepted them.
Works both ways.

I can assure you that you dont need any guidance from the line when breasttroking down or up. Maybe at freefalling.

As I have said in another thread - lets try a competition without the LMC rule. We could learn from that. And maybe the votes in the Aida assembly against accepting LMC would change.

But this LMC thing we have discussed thouroughly in other threads.

Lets keep talking about Unassisted/CNF instead.

Sebastian

 

[Yasemin]

Well Sebastien, I can assure you that in any constant ballast category the guidance from the line can make a big difference. Almost all UCB divers freefall from 15 meters down and for UCB the freefall part is extremely important because that's the part you really have to relax because for the rest of the time you don't have the help of the propultion of the fins or a line. So on a 65 meter dive that makes more than 75% of the descend and 40% of the whole dive. So the only categories actually this makes a big difference is UCB and EACB.
You might have seen in the videos of mine, on UCB dives, especially since i don't have fins to help me get streamlined and do tiny kicks to correct my positioning, I have to flex my body a lot to keep it straight, i could have rested so much better with the guidance of the line...

As for what the LMC allowance would bring, besides all the records Eric mentioned that there are no signs of LMC, we organized a pool competition in Turkey where about 45 people competed. There was not a single case of LMC allowed performance. 3 people that had an LMC developed into a blackout before they could give the tag. What the rule helped tough is not misjudging a few people that had signs of fatigue, or swimmers that have the habbit of exhaling in the water without sinking their heads or loosing control for sure for example...

Regards

Yasemin

 

[Rudi Castineyra]

Sebastian,

I don't regret any of the things I said to you, and you almost got all of my meaning correct, except a couple of things. I have never direspected or belittled anybody because of lacking knowledge, what is knowledge indeed? It is something even more relative than LMC, and where I could be very knwledgeable compared to some, I am indeed quite ignorant compared to others...But you were pushing my buttons and kept on pushing and then expected a polite reply from me it seems...Whether you realized it or not, you were indeed being quite disrespectful when equalling David's dive to a lesser AIDA depth, that was simply wrong, despite what your perceptions about LMC tell you. So, I wanted to remind you that is wrong to issue such an accusatory statement, when you should perhaps remember that there are many other more tangible aspects and technicalities that affect a performance far more than the LMC factor on which you seem to put so much weight. And one last thing for the last time, FREE does not exist to make AIDA "better", we have our own agenda and do our own things. Period.

Well said Eric, indeed, as a trainer an experienced diver, I never cease to be amazed how much people worry about the arrival at the surface, when what happens underwater could have a much more pronounced effect on the outcome on a dive. Deep water violations can indeed make a lot more difference between two identical performances than whether one of the divers suffers LMC and the other doesn't at the surface. Using the line for guiding purposes is one of such cases, and this makes a HUGE difference, since as Yasemin said, the amounts of energy to maintain the body stabilized and in a vertical position while freefalling, specially in Unassisted/CNF are tremendous, whereas with the assistance of the line this problem would be eliminated. I have indeed seen several videos of AIDA records that would not have been accepted by FREE, there were several gross violations underwater, but then again, to the best of my understanding, AIDA rarely positions judges underwater, so athletes can commit these violations accidentally or purposely and get away with it. Our surfacing is applied the same for everybody, all divers need to complete a task upon reaching the surface, and this cannot be influenced or misinterpreted by a judge, but then, there is a lot od leeway and open holes with a system where the divers are not being watched underwater, specially in categories like constant ballast and unassisted, so I would very sincerely suggest that a good step for forward motion for AIDA would be to ensure an even play field UNDERWATER before you worry so much about what happens at the surface...Just a suggestion.

Oh, and yes, sorry, I got confused with Yasemin's urine results which we had gotten yesterday and her urine PH was 5, her blood PH is always below 7 anyway, but not 5

Safe dives,
Safe dives,

 

[ApneaBlue]

Originally posted by Rudi Castineyra
Sebastian,

..........Using the line for guiding purposes is one of such cases, and this makes a HUGE difference, since as Yasemin said, the amounts of energy to maintain the body stabilized and in a vertical position while freefalling, specially in Unassisted/CNF are tremendous, whereas with the assistance of the line this problem would be eliminated.

Man, that would totally kick ass if I could use the line as a guide!Definately would make the freefall MUCH more relaxing...Would help especially since I am constantly being told by Rudi "Straighten up! you look like a limp dick sinking in the water!"

 

[Jason Billows]

I can see how some may find benefits to using the line as a guide, but there are also drawbacks.

I used to use the line as a guide all the time when doing CB dives and it slowed me down without me realizing it. Because you're only focused on a small portion of the line it's difficult to realize sometimes when you're pushing into the line too much. The result is increased friction along the line and a much slower descent.

I didn't realize this was happening to me until I saw a video of one of my dives. Without realizing it, I was actually pushing the line out at quite a large angle.

Of course you could train with this knowledge and simply ensure that you're not pushing on the line too much, but my solution has been to simply stay off the line all together.

Jason

 

[ApneaBlue]

Originally posted by Jason Billows
I can see how some may find benefits to using the line as a guide, but there are also drawbacks.

I used to use the line as a guide all the time when doing CB dives and it slowed me down without me realizing it. Because you're only focused on a small portion of the line it's difficult to realize sometimes when you're pushing into the line too much. The result is increased friction along the line and a much slower descent.

I didn't realize this was happening to me until I saw a video of one of my dives. Without realizing it, I was actually pushing the line out at quite a large angle.

Of course you could train with this knowledge and simply ensure that you're not pushing on the line too much, but my solution has been to simply stay off the line all together.

Jason

Jason,
what are you doing, humping the line I think most people use thier hand as a guide and able to use it to slow down or speed up at will...It's extremely useful for people who can't equalize so well (like me)...When you feel the pressure, just clinch the line a bit and slow your descent and it makes equalization better....But I can say I know anyone who actually rubs their body against the line for guidance....Actually, I take that back...When I ruptured my ear drum on the 63m attempt, I had to feel my way back to the suface with this rubbing technique but that was going up

 

[Walrus]

I don't use the line as a guide for my no-fins dives as it would only slow me down, not give me any benefit. I find the descent on a no-fins dive much easier then a constant dive. I was using 2 pounds of weight fixed up high on my wetsuit vest for further stabillity. I could pretty much fall asleep and still drop vertical on descent.
With a monofin and a weightbelt I am extremely unstable on descent and often would use the line. I feel if anything it slows you down. So if you were more stable and didn't have to use the line it would be an advantage. Check out footage of Carlos's 102m WR dive in Cyprus for example.
Under AIDA rules you are not allowed to grab the line (except on the turn). Carlos Coste was disqualified on his 61m no-fins WR dive for doing this. You are only allowed to use an open hand so can't use it to stop and equalise and then go again.

P.S. Carlos has already made a qualifying dive of 67m no-fins in training. Stig has anounced 70m.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[efattah]

Under AIDA rules, you can pinch the line by twisting the carabiner of your lanyard, stopping your descent, even without touching the line; your arm should be at your side when you do this.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[glennv]

Walrus,

Do you have a copy/link to that dive. I only saw it in Cyprus and it was the most beautifull dive i have ever seen in my life and will be for a long time i am sure. The standing ovations and screeming of the crowd proved i was not alone in this.
I now have 4 examples in my mind that will guide me in my freediving career.
1. Carlos 102m dive
2. Peter Pedersen 200m dynamics video
3. Umbertos technical perfection (scenes from Ocean Man will never leave my mind). Than man IS water
4. Topis CW nofins record dive

 

[cebaztian]

Yes you are right (Yas, David) guidance from the line is an advantage when freefalling. Specially for me since I close my eyes.
No clinching is allowed though to stop the speed (but as usuall Eric is one step ahead and shows the possibility of using the carabiner to clinch the line - I am sure someone is already formulating a rule change for this).

I wonder why FREE dont allow the line for guidance. Maybe because there is something very logic with having the athlet to deal with the ocean by himself.

Sebastian
PS. Never said that Davids dive would be worth 62 meters in Aida. I said that a 65 meter dive in Free could be worth 62 in Aida since you COULD push yourself further and still be deemed valid.
PS 2. I know FREE doesnt exist to "better" Aida. I have just noticed that the existance of FREE is good for Aida (thats what I think). Period.
PS 3 And I am still intrested in finding a formula that compares no fins diving with fins. Period. My last estimation is that the factor is x1.35.

 

[Manuel]

@ Glenn Venghaus:
I have only the link to Topi's -60m CNF and Peter Petersen's DF 200m: http://www.danskfridykkerforbund.dk/08comp/01dis/dis_uk.htm
Deeply,
MANUEL

 

[glennv]

Thanks Manuel, I already had those (can even download them from my site). Was looking for Carlos dive.

 

[Erik]

It looks like the new site is under construction...the videos should be here:
http://www.carloscoste.com/galeria.html
The 90 metre video is awesome, I remember, with a cool soundtrack too.
Cheers,
Erik Y.

 

[michaell]

Videos "should" be there - but if you click on the icon, nothing happens. The pic-gallery works, unluckily the videos don´t.