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Herbert Nitsch 214m News from Greece
- Thread starter MIG
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Well done on staying alive!
Great dive. I have no clue what No Limits diving feels like. I would imagine it is pretty frightening, and very far from 'free'.
Clearly Herbert and his team <insert hyperlinks/s here> are re-thinking some important details of sled-diving; with success.
At what point did Herbert remove his hood/goggles/noseclip?
When are we going to see 1000ft?
Great dive. I have no clue what No Limits diving feels like. I would imagine it is pretty frightening, and very far from 'free'.
Clearly Herbert and his team <insert hyperlinks/s here> are re-thinking some important details of sled-diving; with success.
At what point did Herbert remove his hood/goggles/noseclip?
When are we going to see 1000ft?
Congrats to Herbert. This is a big performance.
To those who are complaining about no limits not looking like the old way of doing it, come on, this is no limits. I am sure there were people complaining when people began going head up rather than head down as well. Innovation and doing things a different way is what this discipline is about. The idea is there are no limits other than a few things to mitigate safety issues.
AIDA is not going to stop recognizing No Limits. As it was stated before, that would just lead to a totally unregulated chase of depth and would be a total circus. AIDA is not going to abandon its role as an organizational body for this. Continued advances in medical research and diving techniques can help mitigate health related issues. Luckily, DCS is not a rapid onset issue. So, if proper safety and preventative techniques are in place these issues can be mitigated to some extent.
Any activity carries with it risk to the participant. Even with accidents and fatalities, freediving remains one of the safest activities you can participate in. There are far more issues with other areas of apnea than competitive freediving. Just take a look at spearfishing. So, if all elite athletes do their duty by educating themselves on what risks they face and AIDA does our role to help in that education and relaying good information, we should be able to continue to advance the sport while limiting risk to the athletes.
As the exposures become greater, the risk will increase. But, there will always be ways to help mitigate those risks. We may face a day where some very deep athletes have more issues. Eric is correct in his asking if we will accept high bends rates. I am not sure we will see that day any time soon, but it is good to consider the possiblity of addressing the issue prior to it being an issue.
We are likely to have more issues with packing and lung expansion injury due to fluid ingress into the lungs and not exhaling prior to the surface before we have DCS issue.
Everyone should keep in mind that the species of bends likely to appear with freediving will be neurological in its presentation. Due to the short duration of the dives. So, yes, if DCS is not mitigated, it will be very serious.
The Sled diving safety document was constructed to try to provide good information related to this topic and others.
As for doing SP at depth while breathing oxygen that would be called scuba diving would it not. I do believe for all disciplines that the athlete must come back to the surface. You see that Herbert is in effect slowing his ascent and doing a slow ascent to the surface. This is likely doing a good job from a deco perspective and allowing plenty of time for exhalation prior to the surface.
It is an amazing performance and Herbert appears to be doing everything possible to mitigate the risks of doing this. Hopefully, others will learn to try to do the same in the future.
Grant
To those who are complaining about no limits not looking like the old way of doing it, come on, this is no limits. I am sure there were people complaining when people began going head up rather than head down as well. Innovation and doing things a different way is what this discipline is about. The idea is there are no limits other than a few things to mitigate safety issues.
AIDA is not going to stop recognizing No Limits. As it was stated before, that would just lead to a totally unregulated chase of depth and would be a total circus. AIDA is not going to abandon its role as an organizational body for this. Continued advances in medical research and diving techniques can help mitigate health related issues. Luckily, DCS is not a rapid onset issue. So, if proper safety and preventative techniques are in place these issues can be mitigated to some extent.
Any activity carries with it risk to the participant. Even with accidents and fatalities, freediving remains one of the safest activities you can participate in. There are far more issues with other areas of apnea than competitive freediving. Just take a look at spearfishing. So, if all elite athletes do their duty by educating themselves on what risks they face and AIDA does our role to help in that education and relaying good information, we should be able to continue to advance the sport while limiting risk to the athletes.
As the exposures become greater, the risk will increase. But, there will always be ways to help mitigate those risks. We may face a day where some very deep athletes have more issues. Eric is correct in his asking if we will accept high bends rates. I am not sure we will see that day any time soon, but it is good to consider the possiblity of addressing the issue prior to it being an issue.
We are likely to have more issues with packing and lung expansion injury due to fluid ingress into the lungs and not exhaling prior to the surface before we have DCS issue.
Everyone should keep in mind that the species of bends likely to appear with freediving will be neurological in its presentation. Due to the short duration of the dives. So, yes, if DCS is not mitigated, it will be very serious.
The Sled diving safety document was constructed to try to provide good information related to this topic and others.
As for doing SP at depth while breathing oxygen that would be called scuba diving would it not. I do believe for all disciplines that the athlete must come back to the surface. You see that Herbert is in effect slowing his ascent and doing a slow ascent to the surface. This is likely doing a good job from a deco perspective and allowing plenty of time for exhalation prior to the surface.
It is an amazing performance and Herbert appears to be doing everything possible to mitigate the risks of doing this. Hopefully, others will learn to try to do the same in the future.
Grant
Congratulations to Herbert and his team. I just watched the film of the event and could clearly relate to the stress levels of the team during that dive. I thought organising safety for Will's attempts was stressful; that was another level.
Outstanding performance and well done to all involved.
Mike
Outstanding performance and well done to all involved.
Mike
Clearly not something you decide alone Grant. Not even the board. If Aida should give up NLT it would be an issue for the members to decide.
I can see good arguments for AIDA dissasociate itself from NLT and it WOULD NOT lead to any circus or unregulation.
This incredible dive of Herbert deserves respect - he is truly the no 1 freediver. And now it is time to remember Musimus words that "no one could follow him" into the depths:
The Utimate Dive
I see Herberts dive as the beginning of the end. The EQEX extension tool Herbert uses to equalise past 120m could extend NL to depths that was unthinkable just a few years back. His new astronaut flotation "helmet" makes it possible to return to the surface without waiting for tanks to fill ballons at great depth (he spends only a couple of seconds at the turn).
So where will this end? A full torpedo cascet where the athlete straps in and can relax without holding himself, taken through the hole process. Once equalization is mastered at 150-170 meters depths far beyond 200-300 is possible. The athletes will want to go faster into O2 deco at depths after their dives. Athletes will demand a rulechange or do records outside Aida.
No limit will evolve and the discipline will see more deaths (it is in another league when it comes to risks).
I think it is a good idea for Aida to disassociate itself from the NLT discipline and only represent the athletic sportive side of freediving - the competitions. It is advisable to form a new branch of todays NLT professionals. A new organisation under a new name. I dont think the aida board of today (with all the issues it has to handle) is the optimal superviser of NLT.
As NLT evolves into a more technical discipline I predict other discplines will emerge and claim to be the most respected of all discplines. The no equipment discipline will cause the most interest in media and public in the future. A man and his swimming trunks - how deep can he go?
It will take a few years more, but I think it will come.
Sebastian
fridykning
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The whole point of having 4 systems of safety and total monitoring throughout the dive, was just so that the the athlete could compete at his best.
Of course things could have gone wrong as they can in any discipline of freediving. I.e death by drowning in Static which has happened in competition.
Herbert's dive was extremely well organized and very safe. Far more so than any other dive in the history of the sport.
So much so that Greek AIDA is borrowing our system and equipment for their next competition.
Of course the horizons of No Limits have increased. It is after all the the No Limits discipline.
PS
A great documentary of this dive is now in post production.
Of course things could have gone wrong as they can in any discipline of freediving. I.e death by drowning in Static which has happened in competition.
Herbert's dive was extremely well organized and very safe. Far more so than any other dive in the history of the sport.
So much so that Greek AIDA is borrowing our system and equipment for their next competition.
Of course the horizons of No Limits have increased. It is after all the the No Limits discipline.
PS
A great documentary of this dive is now in post production.
I think I missed that one. Did that really happen? For sure it was not an AIDA Competition was it?
Anyway, where can I put my pre-order for the docu? :t
I do not remember seeing that, but I do remember telling him that although he does not plan making any other record attempts, he sees no reason why other freedivers could not soon go to 300m or even deeper. However, although Musimu mastered efficient equalization technique (flooding the sinuses and the middle ear), he apparently underestimated the danger of DCS where Herbert's equalization method is better suited for.
Sure Alki you guys did an impeccable job but NLT is clearly in a totally different realm from other disciplines in freediving. I would not even class it as Freediving as it is so reliant on technical devices. I have a lot of respect for Herberts NLT dive but I have a whole lot more for Will Trubridge's WR CNF record. More athetic skill and far more FREE.
You seem like the man with the money. Here is your chance to start an organisation for ratifying NLT dives. We have reached a new era and maybe you are the one to lead us into it.
You seem like the man with the money. Here is your chance to start an organisation for ratifying NLT dives. We have reached a new era and maybe you are the one to lead us into it.
Adam
Bill and Kimo from AIDA did a fantastic job judging the dive.
Until AIDA decide that that it does not want to ratify these dives, it is AIDA's domain.
If of course AIDA decides that this not something it wishes to continue then that is another matter.
Please remind yourself of a little movie called The Big Blue that inspired so many.
Please remember that as far back as the Greek sponge divers in the late 17th Century, freediving has been inspired by the use of drop weights and pulleys.
A
Bill and Kimo from AIDA did a fantastic job judging the dive.
Until AIDA decide that that it does not want to ratify these dives, it is AIDA's domain.
If of course AIDA decides that this not something it wishes to continue then that is another matter.
Please remind yourself of a little movie called The Big Blue that inspired so many.
Please remember that as far back as the Greek sponge divers in the late 17th Century, freediving has been inspired by the use of drop weights and pulleys.
A
My belief is that in the long run Aida would benefit from cutting lose from NLT. NLT does not fit well into getting the respect we want for our competitions and maybe be more respected by IOC (and if need be CMAS) in a distant future.
Variable weight discpiplines is something so different - its the real hard core stuff. An organization for NLT would consist of the people who have been doing these things over the years: the judges, the vidoegraphers, the trimixguys, the sponsors, the organizers, the NLT athletes.
The people who are further away from the athletes (unbiased) are suited to sit on a board - the others should be on an advisory board. Where people like Alki, Herbert would have there given places - the guys that makes it happen.
The set up of Herberts record might seem impressive. But realy - lets face it - NLT has finaly climbed up to its "lowest limit" when it comes to safety. Up to now it has been quite "happy go lucky". From here on it can only be improved - and ist going to be improved, not primarily by a NLT commity within Aida, but by the Athletes themselves who wants to stay alive.
It took several DCS, one or two deaths, articles and writing on the internet for Aida Board to wake up.
NLT needs to be run by people purely dedicated to this. People who have been in the business.
First step could be a NLT commity within Aida.
Then a new name and a independant organization.
THE NO LIMIT ORGANIZATION
fridykning
Sebastian
Variable weight discpiplines is something so different - its the real hard core stuff. An organization for NLT would consist of the people who have been doing these things over the years: the judges, the vidoegraphers, the trimixguys, the sponsors, the organizers, the NLT athletes.
The people who are further away from the athletes (unbiased) are suited to sit on a board - the others should be on an advisory board. Where people like Alki, Herbert would have there given places - the guys that makes it happen.
The set up of Herberts record might seem impressive. But realy - lets face it - NLT has finaly climbed up to its "lowest limit" when it comes to safety. Up to now it has been quite "happy go lucky". From here on it can only be improved - and ist going to be improved, not primarily by a NLT commity within Aida, but by the Athletes themselves who wants to stay alive.
It took several DCS, one or two deaths, articles and writing on the internet for Aida Board to wake up.
NLT needs to be run by people purely dedicated to this. People who have been in the business.
First step could be a NLT commity within Aida.
Then a new name and a independant organization.
THE NO LIMIT ORGANIZATION
fridykning
Sebastian
I don't agree with that at all. You don't need a seperate NLT org. What about all the experience already gathered within the AIDA circuits (including the negative ones)? I really think it'd be stupid to let go of that experience, and I just can't see the reasons why.
The sportive respect towards NLT extends as far as it is the discipline the reaches the greatest depths of all. Therefore it will always have an attraction, to athletes, media, spectators, etc. Athletically, constant or indeed constant without fins will always be more awesome in their nature, but no limits will still represent the ultimate question of apnea: What's the ultimate depth for a human being? So be it.
I don't think NLT will ever disappear because of this, also because the more freedivers there are out there in humanity, the further the limits will be pushed, also genetically. It'll be like today, very few will do NLT, but a couple of people will keep focusing on it, trying it out, get close to records, succeed or have horrible accidents.
Seb, it's like you want AIDA to run away from the dangers of NLT. I say hell no. We lost Löic recently, earlier Carlos and Patrick got in serious trouble, and who can forget Audrey's demise (wasn't AIDA, but still...)? Somebody has to try to protect these people, oftentimes from themselves. In this respect, you couldn't drag me away. Deep down, I doubt that we have seen the last high-profile death in freediving, sled or otherwise. I also fear that the phenomenon of human error by athletes, organizers or sports politicians could cause fatalities in the future (Audrey again). I hate that notion, I really do. But I ain't running away from it either, all one can do is keep trying.
AIDA is still the best organization around to address these problems. So it'd be really f***ing stupid to do the CMAS thing and run away screaming.
Yes, freediving is dangerous ... duh!
Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen
The sportive respect towards NLT extends as far as it is the discipline the reaches the greatest depths of all. Therefore it will always have an attraction, to athletes, media, spectators, etc. Athletically, constant or indeed constant without fins will always be more awesome in their nature, but no limits will still represent the ultimate question of apnea: What's the ultimate depth for a human being? So be it.
I don't think NLT will ever disappear because of this, also because the more freedivers there are out there in humanity, the further the limits will be pushed, also genetically. It'll be like today, very few will do NLT, but a couple of people will keep focusing on it, trying it out, get close to records, succeed or have horrible accidents.
Seb, it's like you want AIDA to run away from the dangers of NLT. I say hell no. We lost Löic recently, earlier Carlos and Patrick got in serious trouble, and who can forget Audrey's demise (wasn't AIDA, but still...)? Somebody has to try to protect these people, oftentimes from themselves. In this respect, you couldn't drag me away. Deep down, I doubt that we have seen the last high-profile death in freediving, sled or otherwise. I also fear that the phenomenon of human error by athletes, organizers or sports politicians could cause fatalities in the future (Audrey again). I hate that notion, I really do. But I ain't running away from it either, all one can do is keep trying.
AIDA is still the best organization around to address these problems. So it'd be really f***ing stupid to do the CMAS thing and run away screaming.
Yes, freediving is dangerous ... duh!
Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen
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