I saw this fish...

[wet]

Thanks Foxfish, really good site!

Seems like the neoteny is a genetic adaptation to extremely low Iodine level in the highland freshwater lakes. I had thought they were only white, like deep cave salamanders.

DDeden

 

[naiad]

My picture disappeared!
Thanks for the link, Foxfish. I used to keep axolotls. They are fascinating, they can also regrow their legs and tail if they lose them. I have seen this in newt tadpoles, they sometimes lose their legs in fights, but soon a perfect replacement grows, identical to the original.

The lungfish external gills normally shrink when they start breathing air, leaving small internal gills, but in at least one species they may remain in the adult. Possibly neoteny, like the axolotl?

They don't have big teeth, but they probably can bite hard. In my college there is a 1m long African lungfish called Biffa, I wouldn't want to hand feed him!

A few days ago in college, I took a piece of wood out of a fish tank, and I didn't realise there was an Ancistrus (pleco) stuck to it. It fell off the wood and landed on the floor. I picked it up and it stuck its cheek spines in my hand. The fish was OK, and I guess I deserved it for not being more careful! rofl

I then went on to clean the tank with a siphon tube, and started the siphon by sucking it. I miscalculated the force required, and the fish water went in my mouth! rofl At least it wasn't too bad, better than some tap water.

There were some visitors in the college that day, I'm glad they didn't see my suctional misadventures.

 

[foxfish]

Be careful mate with your lung power you might become chief collage siphoner rofl

 

[wet]

What's "Newt", is that a salamander-"snake" that drops it's tail?

Those pleco spines really are sharp like a needle? Do they just use them to prevent being swallowed by predators, or are they also for aggression (male rivalry or stabbing prey)?

The fish water must have been tasty, lots of "nutrients" in there. Make sure you don't inhale any mini-plecos!! Aagh!! Ptooey!! Help, I've got a pleco stuck in my teef!rofl

The exciting adventures of fish-keepers!:crutch rofl

 

[naiad]

A newt is a small salamander. It does have a tail and looks like a lizard.

The pleco spines are quite sharp. The fin spines are to prevent them being swallowed by predators. The cheek spines are mainly used for fighting with other males, but females also have them. The one that got me with its spines is a female.

I will try not to suck up any fish. It is all too easy to end up hoovering in water, sand and guppies! rofl They follow the siphon tube around, not realising that if it gets them they will end up on the floor and possibly down the drain. :waterwork

 

[naiad]

More fish tales...

A couple of days ago there was a problem in the British river tank - a chub tried to eat a stickleback (probably already dead) and ended up choking, because the spines got caught in its mouth. It evaded capture in this state for over 24 hours. The next day I managed to catch it, and successfully removed the stickleback in a delicate operation. The chub seemed in reasonable condition, and I put it in a bucket with an air pump as a temporary home. There was about 5cm of water in the bucket, and the distance from the surface of the water to the top of the bucket was about 20-25cm. Despite this, the 6cm chub managed to leap out of the bucket onto the floor, where it died. :waterwork :head

Chub are related to golden orfe, which are also accident-prone. Most of them seem to end up jumping out of their tank or choking on objects. I thought this was generally caused by poor conditions (bad water quality or lack of food), but I have seen several instances where this is not the case. Sometimes I have walked past an orfe tank in an aquarium shop, and seen a fish jumping out and put it back. I have also seen them in adjacent tanks, so they must go from one tank to another when they are lucky.

Young orfe, dace and chub are very beautiful fish, with a perfect fish shape and big shiny eyes. It is a shame that they seem to be lacking brains, even by fish standards.

I also put my face in a carp tank with big mirror, common and leather carp. rofl

The water quality was considerably better than the pool, chlorine-free, filtered and changed frequently. I want to do my next static in there.

 

[wet]

A newt is a small salamander. It does have a tail and looks like a lizard

I was thinking of a skink, I think! Tail-dropping snake-lizard.

The pleco spines are quite sharp. The fin spines are to prevent them being swallowed by predators. The cheek spines are mainly used for fighting with other males, but females also have them. The one that got me with its spines is a female.

I guess most predatorial fish swallow their prey (suction feeding) whole rather than chewing it or biting chunks off like terrestrial mammal carnivores do, though I know some smaller fish do take bites. I hope you put disinfectant on your puncture, although it might not help much. I assume the spines are non-poisonous solid rather than hollow. Hollow ones are bad, can contain nasty microbes, like lion claws.

I will try not to suck up any fish. It is all too easy to end up hoovering in water, sand and guppies! rofl They follow the siphon tube around, not realising that if it gets them they will end up on the floor and possibly down the drain. :waterwork

Can you screen the tube a bit, a shred of net clamped with a rubber band? Or would that get clogged right away?

 

[wet]

More fish tales...

A couple of days ago there was a problem in the British river tank - a chub tried to eat a stickleback (probably already dead) and ended up choking, because the spines got caught in its mouth. It evaded capture in this state for over 24 hours. The next day I managed to catch it, and successfully removed the stickleback in a delicate operation. The chub seemed in reasonable condition, and I put it in a bucket with an air pump as a temporary home. There was about 5cm of water in the bucket, and the distance from the surface of the water to the top of the bucket was about 20-25cm. Despite this, the 6cm chub managed to leap out of the bucket onto the floor, where it died. :waterwork :head

A valiant & heroic final gesture of freedom seeking! Cheers to the chub! Hope you gave it a proper burial at sea...

Chub are related to golden orfe, which are also accident-prone. Most of them seem to end up jumping out of their tank or choking on objects. I thought this was generally caused by poor conditions (bad water quality or lack of food), but I have seen several instances where this is not the case. Sometimes I have walked past an orfe tank in an aquarium shop, and seen a fish jumping out and put it back. I have also seen them in adjacent tanks, so they must go from one tank to another when they are lucky.

Why aren't fish tanks screened? Maybe because they'd only clunk their heads into the screen and knock themselves out silly.

Young orfe, dace and chub are very beautiful fish, with a perfect fish shape and big shiny eyes. It is a shame that they seem to be lacking brains, even by fish standards.

I also put my face in a carp tank with big mirror, common and leather carp. rofl

The water quality was considerably better than the pool, chlorine-free, filtered and changed frequently. I want to do my next static in there.

Sounds nice. They'd probably all try to nibble your hands, if you are the regular feeder. Don't try it in a tank with nasty biters though!

 

[naiad]

I guess most predatorial fish swallow their prey (suction feeding) whole rather than chewing it or biting chunks off like terrestrial mammal carnivores do, though I know some smaller fish do take bites. I hope you put disinfectant on your puncture, although it might not help much. I assume the spines are non-poisonous solid rather than hollow. Hollow ones are bad, can contain nasty microbes, like lion claws.

Can you screen the tube a bit, a shred of net clamped with a rubber band? Or would that get clogged right away?

The mark from the spines went after about 1 day, so I guess they are not too bad. Most predatorial fish swallow their prey whole. The spines are generally effective in preventing this, but sometimes they get stuck, causing a situation like the stickleback and the chub in which neither can free itself and they would both die.

I could screen the tube, but the smallest guppies would still fit through the screen unless the holes are very small, and then it would get clogged.

A valiant & heroic final gesture of freedom seeking! Cheers to the chub! Hope you gave it a proper burial at sea...

I have to admire a fish that thought it could swallow a stickleback of almost half its own length, and then managed to jump a vertical distance of 4x its own length, from shallow water, and ended up on the floor over a metre from the bucket.

Unfortunately it was buried in the bin. :waterwork A few weeks ago a filter got blocked in the trout farm and several fish died. They were fed to the ornamental fish. The red-tailed catfish ate a whole trout of about 20cm in one gulp. It waits just under the surface and snaps like a crocodile. It eats mostly trout, but other fish too.

The chub ended up in the tank by mistake because it came in with a lot of minnows. Any future chub is going in the river.

Why aren't fish tanks screened? Maybe because they'd only clunk their heads into the screen and knock themselves out silly.

They sometimes are. I don't know why some shops leave them uncovered, maybe because it looks better.

Sounds nice. They'd probably all try to nibble your hands, if you are the regular feeder. Don't try it in a tank with nasty biters though!

They do, I was also feeding them. Their lips are rubbery and they try to bite with their gums, because they have no front teeth.

 

[wet]

Well, I guess one must be practical with fish, a toss into the ornamental tank provides a final flourish anyway, some bright colors and all.

I'm still curious about the size of those Borneo saber-toothed catfish with suction cup belly buttons. If they grow as big as the monster catfish in Thailand, I'd be very nervous about feeding them unless I had a long chain-mail kevlar coated glove. Probably I'd just toss the food in, I kind of like my fingers.

 

[naiad]

When I feed big catfish I drop the food in from a safe distance.
They don't have big teeth, but they are big and strong and can probably bite hard. The redtail doesn't bite as long as there isn't any food around, and it is usually friendly. Its skin is rough and rubbery, not slippery. It puts its barbels out of the water to feel and taste its surroundings.

A few days ago I saw how the African lungfish breathes. It rises to the surface by standing on its tail and pelvic fins, and puts its mouth out of the water. Then it opens its mouth wide and stays like that for a few seconds. Then it closes its mouth, trapping a lot of air inside, and puts its face back in the water. The air is then pushed down into its lungs, causing a noticeable expansion. It repeated the same again, I don't know whether this was a separate breath, or 'packing' more air on top of what it already had.

Afterwards a few small bubbles leaked from its mouth and gill openings. I did not see it exhale underwater at any point, I assume it let out some air while its mouth was open at the surface.

This is very similar to what axolotls do, except that they usually gasp instead of using their mouth to push the air in. I think they exhale forcefully and then use the negative pressure to suck air in when they surface, as they have no ribs or diaphragm.

The lungfish and axolotls are strongly negatively buoyant, even with full lungs. This is surprising, because their bone structure is minimal, and they do seem to hold a significant amount of air. They sometimes swallow stones while feeding. I thought this was accidental, but maybe it is a way of buoyancy control, as crocodiles and seals do.

 

[wet]

This is very similar to what axolotls do, except that they usually gasp instead of using their mouth to push the air in. I think they exhale forcefully and then use the negative pressure to suck air in when they surface, as they have no ribs or diaphragm.

The lungfish and axolotls are strongly negatively buoyant, even with full lungs. This is surprising, because their bone structure is minimal, and they do seem to hold a significant amount of air. They sometimes swallow stones while feeding. I thought this was accidental, but maybe it is a way of buoyancy control, as crocodiles and seals do.

No ribs? You mean no bony ribs? I thought salamanders had ribs. You mean no diaphragm or intercostal muscles?

Seals swallow stones? Are you sure? Some marine dinosaurs did, maybe for grinding food and/or ballast. Birds swallow small stones for grinding seeds.

I'm wondering about the fat marrow inside large bones, if that developed (in addition to energy storage function) to reduce density of mineralized bones, giving buoyancy without problems with air spaces getting compressed during dive descents and ascents. Maybe the marine reptiles first had bone marrow. Whales have oil in their porous bones, while sirenians (manatees) have extremely dense thick brittle bones.

There is a snake which inflates it's single lung fully and then floats like a log across ponds towards a frog or bird, with just it's tail propelling a bit. Have you heard of any fish that does this sort of balloon-fill in predation or evasion? Something like the puffer fish, but with air rather than water.

DDeden

 

[naiad]

No ribs? You mean no bony ribs? I thought salamanders had ribs. You mean no diaphragm or intercostal muscles?

Some salamanders have short ribs, but they do not go all the way around its body. Some pictures of salamander skeletons...
Amphibian Biology
And frog skeletons...
Amphibian Biology
That is why frogs can inflate themselves with air - there are no ribs to restrict the expansion of the lungs.

Seals swallow stones? Are you sure? Some marine dinosaurs did, maybe for grinding food and/or ballast. Birds swallow small stones for grinding seeds.

I think so. It is not known why they do it, but one reason could be for ballast.

There is a snake which inflates it's single lung fully and then floats like a log across ponds towards a frog or bird, with just it's tail propelling a bit. Have you heard of any fish that does this sort of balloon-fill in predation or evasion? Something like the puffer fish, but with air rather than water.

The puffer fish can inflate itself with air if a predator picks it out of the water. If it is released in this state, it will float on its back, with its bright yellow belly showing. This is a warning that it is poisonous.

 

[naiad]

A good picture of the X-starfish.
The goldfish looks as if it is admiring its reflection.

 

[wet]

A good picture of the X-starfish.
The goldfish looks as if it is admiring its reflection.

That really is an X
Nice symmetry!

The goldfish tail is low too, is it regular tailed?

I'm still thinking about the seals...can't remember reading that part about swallowing stones. I would think penguins might too, since they have bird digestion gizzards and stuff, although they just eat swimming fish AFAIK.

 

[wet]

Some salamanders have short ribs, but they do not go all the way around its body. Some pictures of salamander skeletons...
Amphibian Biology
And frog skeletons...
Amphibian Biology
That is why frogs can inflate themselves with air - there are no ribs to restrict the expansion of the lungs.I think so. It is not known why they do it, but one reason could be for ballast.The puffer fish can inflate itself with air if a predator picks it out of the water. If it is released in this state, it will float on its back, with its bright yellow belly showing. This is a warning that it is poisonous.

I know this sounds silly, but maybe the same reason applies to yellow lemons and grapefruit? "I am super-sour! Not just another sweetie!" The fruit is quite acidic.

Do you know how many vertebral spinal branches are on a (typical, not anomolous) frog, salamander, lizard, bony fish?

The reason I ask is because in humans, there are 12 cranial nerves and 31 spinal nerves (actually pairs) AFAIK, and these numbers correlate both to the splitting of a sphere (eg. fertilized egg) into 31 equidistant great circles (like a geodesic dome) and also to the splitting of a musical octave into 31 separate pleasing harmonic tones. Seems to me that this geometrical commonality is not coincidental, but rather derived from the splitting of a 3 dimensional (4D if include time) object into standing waves of energy/matter. Sorry, I know I've drifted... but I'm wondering if the spines of simpler organisms follow the same numerical pattern as humans do.
It seems likely, though some may have added more spinal nerves (distal branching from split ends?) or lost some of them. The number 12 is common in nature, but 31 is not.
DDeden

 

[naiad]

The goldfish tail is low too, is it regular tailed?

Yes, it is just the position.

I know this sounds silly, but maybe the same reason applies to yellow lemons and grapefruit? "I am super-sour! Not just another sweetie!" The fruit is quite acidic.

Maybe. Most fruits are red when ripe (cherries, strawberries, plums, apples...) and not many are yellow when fully ripe. I wonder why lemons and grapefruit are sour, because most plants want animals to eat their fruit to transport the seeds away from the parent plant. Maybe some animals like sour things?

Do you know how many vertebral spinal branches are on a (typical, not anomolous) frog, salamander, lizard, bony fish?

A goldfish has about 32 vertebrae. Of these, 28 are normal, and 4 are modified to form the Weberian ossicles, which enable it to hear high-pitched sounds. Lower frequency sounds are picked up by the lateral line, which most fishes have.

I think most non-mammal vertebrates have a variable number of vertebrae, depending on the species and possibly the individual. The frog has very few, because its spine is short and straight. A snake has many more, because it is long and flexible.

Some fancy goldfish and diagrams of tail types...
The Droops Net, Hobby House, Aquaria, Goldfish, Types

The Pearlscale goldfish is very close to being a spherical fish.

 

[wet]

Nice goldies!

The 31 thing must just be coincidence I guess.

Seems like a tail-less frog (or human or ape) would have the fewest vertebrae compared to most tailed animals, although the marine mammals (whales, manatees) have fused vertebrae, not sure how their spinal nerves are arranged.
Sharks & skates or tadpoles might indicate the primitive pattern.

Goldies can hear high pitches, that might be a survival tool regarding flying screeching predatorial birds? Or do you think it is just for intra-specific sounds, like whale-song?

Just saw this: sounds of the deep, "smokers" are underwater volcanic vents, they produce tidal resonant sounds that fish may hear and avoid. Do deep fish have lateral lines to hear? Can they see Infra-red light (heat)? Maybe they smell the minerals also.
'Good vibrations' from deep-sea smokers may keep fish out of hot water

Then I saw this, how these smokers mix underground iron into oceans, and that gives clues to the formation of continents 4,000,000,000 years ago found in rocks in Greenland, when CO2 and methane were heavy in atmosphere before plants converted them into tissue and got buried. Apparently if not for these ancient greenhouse gases, our planet would be like Mars.
So Global warming isn't all bad after all, long as it's balanced.
Ancient rocks show how young Earth avoided becoming giant snowball

And since I've been drifting again, here's a tragic note on how fishermen using huge fishing nets offshore Bangladesh drown sea turtles, I know it's not the small traditional fishing boats that do that, its the big powered fishing vessels. This waste of marine life has to end, we are destroying too much.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070205/sc_nm/india_turtles_dc_3
DDeden

 

[naiad]

Goldies can hear high pitches, that might be a survival tool regarding flying screeching predatorial birds? Or do you think it is just for intra-specific sounds, like whale-song?

Probably for intra-specific sounds. They don't seem to be disturbed by high-pitched sounds outside the water, but they do make sounds, probably to communicate with each other. It is interesting that an old book about goldfish that I have mentions that everyone will have noticed the characteristic murmuring sound that goldfish make. It is a very reliable book, so people must have noticed it. Now nobody seems to notice it any more. This may be because of background noise, or because our hearing is mostly not so good. I can hear it if there is no background noise.

Just saw this: sounds of the deep, "smokers" are underwater volcanic vents, they produce tidal resonant sounds that fish may hear and avoid. Do deep fish have lateral lines to hear? Can they see Infra-red light (heat)? Maybe they smell the minerals also.

Almost all fish have lateral lines to hear, and they are particularly sensitive to low-pitched sounds, so that is probably how they find the vents.

 

[wet]

Probably for intra-specific sounds. They don't seem to be disturbed by high-pitched sounds outside the water, but they do make sounds, probably to communicate with each other. It is interesting that an old book about goldfish that I have mentions that everyone will have noticed the characteristic murmuring sound that goldfish make. It is a very reliable book, so people must have noticed it. Now nobody seems to notice it any more. This may be because of background noise, or because our hearing is mostly not so good. I can hear it if there is no background noise.

Almost all fish have lateral lines to hear, and they are particularly sensitive to low-pitched sounds, so that is probably how they find the vents.

Hearing is perceiving energy rhythmic vibrations in a medium (water, air, solid).
When it is a single frequency, a clear tone is perceived, while if multiple frequencies, a crash or boom sound is heard. I guess sharks are either deaf or perceive sound vibrations with their electro-sensor spots, or do they also have a lateral line? I'd guess that mud walking catfish are mostly deaf while out of water, perhaps their air sac connects to their jaw somehow, allowing perception of airborne sound through bone. Then the amphibians & reptiles stemming from these riparian-estuarine mud walkers developed jaws with better air hearing parts, but at some point the air sac (including combined nasal-oral-laryngeal-lungs) separated from the ears except for the eustacean tubes. In mammals, the development of the soft palate separating the oral and nasal areas further improved the air conduction, but still allowed the bone/water conduction only when the nasal cavity and middle/external ears are water-filled. Walruses allow water into their nasal cavity, and squirt it out, so I assume their aural cavities are water filled too, they make a "bell-like" sound (probably using pharyngeal air sacs) during mating season intra-specific, I don't know if they are largely deaf while laying on shores, but I think they bellow like the big seals, which might indicate poor air hearing.

Do any fish use echolocation, transmit and then receive sound? Maybe the shark and others using electro sensing have a more efficient system than sonar. If so, then freshwater sharks and rays might have had to change their electric system due to the different electric potential of freshwater, perhaps that is why the electric eels are freshwater Amazon, they had to amplify the electric charge in water with fewer electrolytes, compared to seawater fish.