increasing the effectiveness of hands free equilisation

[trux]

Whatever your opinion is, one thing is clear and I doubt anyone would try to deny it it - it is the fact that you simply cannot equalize with BTV in negative depth unless you help creating the pressure in the mouse/sinus cavity in some way. Now it is the question where the reverse pack ends, and where the mouth-fill or Frenzel begins. When you do a reverse pack, you get air into your throat and mouth by extending its volume, closing the epiglottis and continuously compressing the air, so that the pressure is equal to the ambient pressure as you descend. Otherwise you have no chance to use BTV for the equalizing. Now, it is clear that the air goes into the mask through the nose, and perhaps even out of the mask, if you push too much. But if it does not get to the mask, then it means there is simply physically no sufficient pressure, and there is no way you could equalize.

And to continue maintaining the ambient pressure as you descend, you have to continue reducing the mouth volume, which you actually do with the Frenzel manoeuvre. Well, you can also use the cheeks, if you have enough air in the mouth, but then I do not understand why you refuse calling the fill "mouth-fill".

In other words: regardless what you do, if you are in negative depth, we all agree you need to create the pressure in sinus so that the air can pass through the Eustachian tubes. Now the exact mechanism, or the sequence of movements of the creating/maintaining the pressure may differ at individuals, but regardless if you call it reverse-pack, or mouth-fill, or Frenzel, at some point you simply have to use the tongue for reducing the mouth volume and maintaining the pressure. And that's exactly what's called Frenzel maneuver. Frenzel does not mean you have to have your nose pinched. Of course the air goes out through the nose, but at BTV, if you do not equalize your mask in the same time, you simply cannot equalize the ears.

 

[haughki]

Great thread. Thanks to all for the input.

@Matt and Linda - Thanks for clarifying the difference between mouthfill and reverse pack. It really makes sense.

I'm reverse-packing regularly after I hit FRC. Between 30-50m I probably reverse pack 10-15 times: I'm still not very comfortable with the technique. I think as I get better, I will become more efficient. I agree, this can be hard on the lungs if I'm not very careful, especially when I get near empty lungs.

This discussion really brings to light the big difference between equalizing before FRC, during the transition from FRC to RV, and after RV. Before I hit FRC, there's plenty of air: I don't have to do much of anything to get it from my lungs into my mouth for equalization; just open the glottis. After FRC, I try to stay relaxed and start easily reverse packing to get air. Maybe if I'm tense or nervous, I'll use my diaphram a little. Then after RV, because I don't do a big mouthfill, I _have_ to reverse pack to get air for equalization.

In my opinion, none of the different equalization technique "definitions" really take this into account. For example, Linda describes Frenzel as a two stage process: 1) bringing air from the lungs and 2) using the tongue as a piston to equalize. But, to my way of thinking, these two processes are very separate and often vary independently. E.g., during any of these descent/pressure phases, I might use a tongue piston to create pressure in my mouth and sinuses (to equalize the ears); but, that's separate from how I get air into my mouth.

when you use the pressure of the mask to equalize you are not doing btv, you are doing frenzel, because you are still pressurizing the mouth, by using the mask skirt to close the nose and not your fingers. this is not btv.

If I understand correctly Linda, you're describing the difference between people who use BTV and those who hands-free equalize without any voluntary control over the Eustachian tubes? Or is this really about using (or not using) back pressure to equalize?

In any case, it's an interesting distinction. It's very clear to me that I'm volunarily opening my Eustachian tubes but still using slight back pressure from my mask. 'Beance Tubaire Volontaire' means "voluntarily opening the Eustachian tubes", so I think I'm doing BTV. I'm also certainly diving hands-free. At the beginning of my dive, until FRC and even between FRC and RV, I definitely don't Frenzel: I don't pump my tongue at all, and I don't do anything to get air from my lungs. I just keep my glottis open, tongue relaxed, and flex my Eustachian tubes. But, I'm still using a bit of back pressure from the mask. So, I'm not doing hands-free Frenzel during that time. As I get deeper, I still flex the Eustachian tubes, but I start to reverse pack and Frenzel to get more air pressure.

I'm pretty sure I can equalize down to ~20m hands free without a mask or nose clip (i.e., with absolutely no back pressure at the nostrils) and with minimal air loss. If I practiced, I could probably get it very clean. I honestly have the sense, though, that whether or not a diver uses some back pressure to equalize is not the defining characteristic of BTV. In my mind, BTV is really about voluntary control of the Eustachian tubes. This seems like the defining characteristic of the technique, based on its name alone.

In any case, I like Connor's thought: there's just a lot of subtle variation in how we all do this. To document this level of subtlety, I think we'd need some new equalization categories, and even then, there's really no way to capture the infinity of nuances.

Hawkeye Parker

 

[trux]

...I definitely don't Frenzel: I don't pump my tongue at all, and I don't do anything to get air from my lungs. I just keep my glottis open, tongue relaxed, and flex my Eustachian tubes. But, I'm still using a bit of back pressure from the mask.

That does not match. If you use some back pressure from the mask, where does it come from when you neither create it with Frenzel (using the tongue with closed glottis) nor with Valsalva (pushing with diaphragm, with open glottis)?

So either you do not use the back pressure from the mask at all (and do the true BTV as Linda wrote), or you do help creating the pressure against the mask with Frenzel or with Valsalva.

 

[haughki]

That does not match. If you use some back pressure from the mask, where does it come from when you neither create it with Frenzel (using the tongue with closed glottis) nor with Valsalva (pushing with diaphragm, with open glottis)?

So either you do not use the back pressure from the mask at all (and do the true BTV as Linda wrote), or you do help creating the pressure against the mask with Frenzel or with Valsalva.

Absolutely see your point. Keep in mind, I'm describing the beginning of my dive, down to FRC (~20m). During this time, I have a very full breath, and the air pressure in my lungs is very great . If I just open my glottis/airway, there's plenty of pressure to equalize my ears. In fact, the back pressure I need (or like to have) is _very_ slight: just enough to push/lift the mask slightly (a few millimeters at most) up from my face; it doesn't break the seal at all.

My sense is that the best description for this is simply BTV. But maybe it's "Valsalva + BTV". In terms of getting the air from my lungs, it's more like Valsalva than Frenzel; but that's misleading too: I don't need to really _push_ with my diaphram (at least not until FRC): the pressure already in my full lungs is more than enough to equalize. Once I hit FRC (or something near there), I usually start to reverse pack and Frenzel to get the same pressure.

Another way I think of what I mean: if I take a max inhalation and then relax, the air rushes out of my lungs until I hit FRC. This pressure created by a full inhalation is the pressure I use to equalize for the first ~20m of my dive. After that, I start to reverse pack and Frenzel. But, I'm also always voluntarily opening my Eustachian tubes.

I'd love to hear from more people who have voluntary control over their Eustachian tubes. I've only met a few, so I don't really know how it works for other people. Again, I think this idea of "true BTV" versus BTV with slight back pressure from the mask (or whatever we want to call it) is a very subtle and difficult to make distinction. I like the idea of testing this by seeing if a "BTV diver" can equalize hands free without any mask or nose clip, but still without losing any air. I'm definitely going to try it the next time I'm in the water. I know I used to do it when I was a kid, but that was a long time ago

 

[cdavis]

Trux's question is mine, where is the pressure coming from between frc and rv?

To add to this wierdness, I seem to have two mechanisms to reverse pac with. With the first, my tongue is moving, pumping air into my cheeks and my windpipe is moving a little, but not much. Volume is high relative to mechanism 2. With this mechanism, my soft palette is closed and I can't get the air to my nose cavity, does me no good. I always thought this was what reverse packing was. The second mechanism I did not recognize until recently. The front of my tongue doesn't move,not sure about the back part of the tongue, but my windpipe pumps up and down like crazy, a little bit of air is pumped up from my lungs each time and the total pressurizes my nose cavity. This is what I've call frenzel, but is it? or is it some weird combination of semi frenzel and reverse pac?

Hawkeye, could you be doing something like this?

Connor

 

[cdavis]

It is definitely possible to equalize btv without mask and nose clip. One of the happier days of my life was at about 7 when I figured out that if I 'cracked" my ears(btv), as I always knew how to do, it would allow me to get down to the bottom at the deep end of the pool without hurting my ears. no equipment of any kind

Connor

 

[laminar]

What is the sound of the soft palate neither opened nor closed?

I have candidates for the renaming of our equalizing approaches:

1. Falling Asleep in the Dcotor's Office while Whistling Dixie

Describes equalizing in complete comfort without even thinking about it. Drugs help, among them decongestants and hallucinogens. Very rare below RV.


2. Crane Swoops Down to Impale Small Minnow in the Shallows Who Can Run but Can't Hide oh crap, says the minnow haha, I've got you says the crane.

Describes equalizing with intent but still with some thin level of grace and talent. You are nearing RV.

3. Chipping Dried Egg from the Small Cup While Discussing Suitable Child Toys for Throwing at Adult Heads

Describes the more complex and unnerving phases of equalizing well below RV, whether reverse packing, trying to hold onto or create a large and proper mouthfill, or just wondering why your whole attention is held by the air in your head and not all the wonders of the ocean.


4. Faster Pussy Cat, Kill, Kill, Kill!

Describes the manic glee with which you let cold sea water enter your ears as the break through the ear drum. The lovely spinning, the ringing in your ears like after a punk rock concert, and your newfound ability to drink cocktails three at a time! Rockin!

 

[haughki]

Trux's question is mine, where is the pressure coming from between frc and rv?

Hi Connor,

These days, I usually start to reverse pack/Frenzel somewhere between 20-30m. I'm assuming this is around where I'm going from FRC to RV. I get the pressure from using my tongue as a piston (Frenzel). I still keep opening my Eustachian tubes all the time. Before I figured out how to reverse-pack/Frenzel, I would use Valsalva and push from my diaphram between FRC and RV. At some point, it would get really hard: then I'd freak out and turn around

To add to this wierdness, I seem to have two mechanisms to reverse pac with. With the first, my tongue is moving, pumping air into my cheeks and my windpipe is moving a little, but not much. Volume is high relative to mechanism 2. With this mechanism, my soft palette is closed and I can't get the air to my nose cavity, does me no good. I always thought this was what reverse packing was. The second mechanism I did not recognize until recently. The front of my tongue doesn't move,not sure about the back part of the tongue, but my windpipe pumps up and down like crazy, a little bit of air is pumped up from my lungs each time and the total pressurizes my nose cavity. This is what I've call frenzel, but is it? or is it some weird combination of semi frenzel and reverse pac?

Hawkeye, could you be doing something like this?

Connor

Well, this is why I don't include reverse-packing in my "definition" of Frenzel. To me, reverse-packing is a really specific technique I use to get air out of my lungs, from FRC to RV and below. I've practiced it a lot, and I can now do it very reliably. Sometimes I move my whole jaw, but all I really need to do is draw my tongue down. The adam's apple moves dramatically. When I do it, my soft-palate is "closed up", blocking off my sinuses. This ensures I don't get mask squeeze. As I get deeper and have a harder time with the reverse pack (i.e., less air), that seal between the soft palate and back of my throat will start to get compromised; I can hear it *snort*. This one way I know I'm getting really close to being out of air for equalization.

Once I get some air into my mouth, then I use Frenzel, along with a Eustachian tube flex, to equalize my mask and ears. At this point I drop the soft-palate so that the air can flow into my mask. It took a little while to get that all straight, but it's quite reliable now.

One thing that seems to help is that when I reverse pack, I make a low, gulping noise. We call it a "grouper call". I think it's just the sound of the air passing "backwards" over the vocal chords. This seems to keep everything "tight" so I don't lose any air back to the lungs at the end of the reverse pack. This is especially nice as I'm getting to the real end of my air volume. I know people reverse pack without making any noise, but I dunno, I like the noise.

Hawkeye

 

[haughki]

3. Chipping Dried Egg from the Small Cup While Discussing Suitable Child Toys for Throwing at Adult Heads

Describes the more complex and unnerving phases of equalizing well below RV, whether reverse packing, trying to hold onto or create a large and proper mouthfill, or just wondering why your whole attention is held by the air in your head and not all the wonders of the ocean.

This is EXACTLY what I do. This is what I've been trying to tell everyone!

 

[mattbigblue]

@ trux

I see, it is just misunderstanding

I didn't say that reverse pack is not a mouthfill, in fact You are right You do some very little mouth-fill.

What confused us is a definition of mouthfill. At some point where You start learning advance equalisation technique You get to mouthfill. For me mouthfill means depth where I take as much air as possible to my mouth and shut my epiglottis for good. Sometimes I refill 1-2 times. In practice it looks like this: I take really big one around 22m, then I refill ~45m and shut my epiglottis. From this point I equalise by building pressure with my cheeks and later with tongue. I don't open epiglottis cause it would suck my air back to my lungs, and bringing it back is impossible.(+ extra risk of lung squeeze)

And with this definition of mouthfill using BTV + mouthfill(without nose clip) it's impossible cause You loose all air through Your nose.

Like You said, If someone is bringing whenever he/she needs air for equalise by reverse packing and call it mouthfill, cause in fact Yes it is very small mouthfill, then You can say it's equalising by BTV(+ little Frenzel help below RV) + mouthfill. However like Linda said it's not a real mouthfill. We just call it reverse packing cause it is the most advanced and the most dangerous technique.

Last but not least, whole thing with mouthfill is to learn technique where You can take some ammount of air into Your mouth and use it all the way down without reverse packing and opening epiglottis. That way is more safe for Your lungs. That's why for me big mouthfill is a whole different thing than small mouthfill from reverse packs.

Matt:friday

 

[JennyWren]

OK, I admit that I'm not going to read EVERY word in this thread, mostly because people seem to be obsessed with deciding which term to use for things which in my mind all lie on a continuous scale. Sure, the terms can identify particular techniques, but probably most people use combinations that fall somewhere in between.

The way I see it, there are two things going on.

One - move air from your lungs to where you need it (eardrums/mask).
Two - clear the passageway to your eardrums.

Pretty much every technique simply addresses these two issues. In valsalva you "blow" with your diapragm (1), which creates the pressure that opens your eustacian tubes (2). In frenzel, you bring up air with your mouthfill/reverse pack (1) and get it into your mask/eustacian tubes with your cheeks, tongue, jaw, etc(2). BTV takes care of (2) for some people using various methods of (1).

We can argue about terminology and try to figure out what name to use for what each specific person does, but really it's a bit tricky to know for sure.

Even the mouthfill/reverse pack argument is a grey area, as far as I can tell the only difference is that a mouthfill is a really, really, really big reverse pack.

 

[azapa]

Even the mouthfill/reverse pack argument is a grey area, as far as I can tell the only difference is that a mouthfill is a really, really, really big reverse pack.

my 2 cents: mouthfill is more the act of holding the air in the mouth and using it to equalize with, reverse pack is how you get the air there bellow RV. I guess 'mouthfill' would be easier to understand if it were called 'mouthhold'. 'gopher cheeks' could be another good term

 

[JennyWren]

Ah ok. I thought mouthfill was ...filling the mouth.

Maybe we should call it mouthfull?

:t

 

[Kars]

The problem I have is that I don't know where the muscle(s) are that are attached to my tubes.

I can do the clicking, but it isn't very reliable and would like to train those muscles.

Can someone show me where exactly the muscles are located, and what direction(s) your tension them in order to open the tubes?

Thanks.


Oh btw I agree it's important to get the definitions strait in order to explain how we equalise at various depths.
At the moment I feel these are not far off, but I'm sure they can be improved upon.

A) BTV, 'Beance Tubaire Volontaire', opening your tubes by using muscles attached, allowing free distribution of air.
B) Sealed nose opening, using a block to divert air to the tubes - mask - nose clip - nose pinching.
C) Reverse pack, bringing up air from the lungs through creating a vacuum in the mouth.
D) Mouthfill, holding air - preferable a maximum amount - in the mouth.
E) Frenzel, using tongue as a piston to push air from mouth to the nose cavity, sinuses and tubes.

 

[haughki]

The problem I have is that I don't know where the muscle(s) are that are attached to my tubes.

I can do the clicking, but it isn't very reliable and would like to train those muscles.

Can someone show me where exactly the muscles are located, and what direction(s) your tension them in order to open the tubes?

I think the muscle involved is the Levator veli palatini. Maybe also the Tensor veli palatini? This is what I have been told by others, anyhow.

I don't know what direction the contraction is....

Hawkeye Parker
San Francisco, CA

 

[Kars]

* Gap #1: Gap between the superior constrictor and base of the skull:

1. Eustachian tube
2. Tensor veli palatini m.
3. Levator veli palatini m.
4. Ascending pharyngeal artery (tonsillar br.)

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levator_veli_palatini]Levator veli palatini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Ok, from the latter image I got the notice the muscle is along a bone, and along the the Eustachian tube. From the description on wiki pedia I learn it's function mainly is:

"The levator veli palatini is the elevator muscle of the velum palatinum in the human body. During swallowing, it contracts, elevating the soft palate to help prevent food from entering the nasopharynx."​

Understanding that contracting the muscle makes it round an thick BLOCKING the the tube, and that it's relaxation helps to open the tube.

I don't think this muscles can push, only pull. So there is some other muscle that bends the velum plalatium, soft plate, downward to facilitate breathing through the nose.

When I visualise pushing my soft plate forward - including the upper part, then I stretch the levator veli palatini muscle and open my tubes.

I find it helps to first 'swallow' - swinging the softplate up, and than, making use of the 'momentum' move it forward to block the mouth firmly. Exhaling a bit though the nose helps.

Now I still need to find out where exactly the muscles are that move the soft plate and it's upper base forward. This will help even more to become conscious of these illustrious "equalising muscles" in order to train them just as hard as my swimming muscles LOL. BTV, here I come!

ps. If I were to do BTV at depth I now think that it would involve moving air in three stages: 1) from the lungs to the mouth, 2) from the mouth to the nose cavity, 3) from the nose cavity to the ears.

Love to hear you guys' feedback!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[flamencoguru]

Hello,

I'm able to do hands-free equalization. I've been able to do it since I was a child but one thing that I notice as a practice to this technique is to try to create a humming noise that is occuring in the center of your head, right between your ears. Try to imagine as if you're trying to push the air out of your ears. By doing this, I definitely know that I'm opening my eustachian tubes.

Also when I'm diving, I can feel and hear the air passing through the tubes. What I am having trouble with is keeping the air in my mouth in order to equalize at deeper depths. It seems to escape into my stomach. I'm still working on that. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not.

Good luck.

Errol

 

[kevtron]

Though I'm not at this point able to hands-free equalize I've found something interesting while reading this thread and playing around with the muscles in my head. I actually think that I can get a small 'crackle' noise in my ears when I try (about 80% of the time). I think this is me opening my Eustachian tubes because when I do it, hold that muscle open and inhale or exhale the breath sounds louder, as if there is a bigger opening for the air to pass through.

Can any of you who are able to voluntarily open your tubes comment on whether or not this is true for you?

Another quick question regarding BTV: The instructions for it here use the term 'partial swallow' a few times, but I'm not quite sure exactly what that is.

 

[Simos]

Cracklings sounds are a good sign there's a very simple way to know if you have opened your e-tubes - just make a continuous humming sound (ie mmmmmmmm) and while you are doing it try to open your e tubes; if they're closed you'll feel the vibration in your nose but if they're open you'll feel/hear the vibration louder coming from your ears. This way you can also tell whether you are opening both sides or just one (common)
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[ishuyi]

Absolutely see your point. Keep in mind, I'm describing the beginning of my dive, down to FRC (~20m). During this time, I have a very full breath, and the air pressure in my lungs is very great . If I just open my glottis/airway, there's plenty of pressure to equalize my ears. In fact, the back pressure I need (or like to have) is _very_ slight: just enough to push/lift the mask slightly (a few millimeters at most) up from my face; it doesn't break the seal at all.

My sense is that the best description for this is simply BTV. But maybe it's "Valsalva + BTV". In terms of getting the air from my lungs, it's more like Valsalva than Frenzel; but that's misleading too: I don't need to really _push_ with my diaphram (at least not until FRC): the pressure already in my full lungs is more than enough to equalize. Once I hit FRC (or something near there), I usually start to reverse pack and Frenzel to get the same pressure.

Another way I think of what I mean: if I take a max inhalation and then relax, the air rushes out of my lungs until I hit FRC. This pressure created by a full inhalation is the pressure I use to equalize for the first ~20m of my dive. After that, I start to reverse pack and Frenzel. But, I'm also always voluntarily opening my Eustachian tubes.

I'd love to hear from more people who have voluntary control over their Eustachian tubes. I've only met a few, so I don't really know how it works for other people. Again, I think this idea of "true BTV" versus BTV with slight back pressure from the mask (or whatever we want to call it) is a very subtle and difficult to make distinction. I like the idea of testing this by seeing if a "BTV diver" can equalize hands free without any mask or nose clip, but still without losing any air. I'm definitely going to try it the next time I'm in the water. I know I used to do it when I was a kid, but that was a long time ago

Hey! I equalize the same way as you. By keeping the whole respiratory system connected and just opening and closing the Eustachian tubes. Does my experience, written here: resemble yours?

I have a question though. Some people tell me that if I can isolate the air above my glottis, it will be easier to open the Eustachian tubes. So they are recommending isolating the air up there first, and using it up, then drawing air up, and then using it up again. Have you tried that? I wonder if that would enable us to go deeper/faster with our hands free. I tried it once but because I'm not so good with glottis control, it was quite energy and focus-zapping.