is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[sjurba]

To me this discussion reminds me a bit of the classic " Dont smoke pot, its dangerous" discussion.People will allways do drugs,just as people will allways dive alone,talking about how to relate to it safely is whats important! Ignorance is the big killer.
As a recreational spearfisher who dives alone, solo or in a group most the time,Im personally very interested in learning more about how to cut down on the risk factors.Im recently certified as cmas freediving/snorkling instructor and this was something we discussed alot during the course.I do not belive in banning things,becouse humans are fundamentally rebellious,the best way to get kids to do something is telling them its forbidden.
And Im curious to what is a long surface interval to clear buildup of acid after a strenous dive? twice the diving time? more?

 

[growingupninja]

To me this discussion reminds me a bit of the classic " Dont smoke pot, its dangerous" discussion.People will allways do drugs,just as people will allways dive alone,talking about how to relate to it safely is whats important! Ignorance is the big killer.
As a recreational spearfisher who dives alone, solo or in a group most the time,Im personally very interested in learning more about how to cut down on the risk factors.Im recently certified as cmas freediving/snorkling instructor and this was something we discussed alot during the course.I do not belive in banning things,becouse humans are fundamentally rebellious,the best way to get kids to do something is telling them its forbidden.
And Im curious to what is a long surface interval to clear buildup of acid after a strenous dive? twice the diving time? more?

Somebody else will hopefully answer this better but I think there are SO many variables. Besides training and a genetic factor, speed of the dive/swim would certainly matter as sprinting builds up lactic acid much quicker than slow swimming, and it would also depend on that diver's DR. If a large portion of dynamic swimming was done in a state of vasoconstriction, muscles were working aneorobically and generating more lactic acid than if they were supplied primarily with O2 from blood. If your legs are still burning from your last dive you certainly haven't cleared lactic acid

 

[esom]

hi baiyoke, cool you took time. just some comments

My subjective perception of the "never freedive alone" is that is sometimes used as an ambassador, promoting safety.

"n d a!" for sure can have numerous meanings. for me it´s beside that it is an ambassador for "safety" also an ambassador for "unsafety". this slogan makes sense when you are at risk in a double sense:
1. you need a ban to be able to make the "right" decision
2. you are at permanent risk of e.g. BO and you do not have a meaningful influence here.
to be at the mecry of luck, nature (which is something seperated from "you"), a helper, is for me quite a nice description of insecurity

The interesting part in communication, is communication, not the actual words.

to be outspoken about this, like you are here, creates funny paradoxes. i am guilty of the same by trying to talk "talk". i feel good parts of the confusion you mentioned has it´s right and important function in such a discussion.

edit: i also wanted to mention here, that the diversity of meanings of words has it´s particular characteristic on a forum. words are not only words here, but they are the forum in some sense. "n d a!" is used on this forum and it seems to me that the people who think this slogan is a way to keep us safe believe in the power of particular words much more than i do.

apart from this i´d say i agree with you a lot. i call "n d a!" quite a few different things, speak of "paternalistic potential" in one place and emphasis several times on how it´s used. check my reply to bills post maybe, to get a second view on my starting post.


about being productive, we have a remarkable discussion so far, and you were not shy to participate either... good ... point taken though.

 

[esom]

We were not talking spearfishing as far as I remember.

why do you think it makes sense to differentiate here?

 

[ThomasB]

why do you think it makes sense to differentiate here?

Because Eric was trying to prove his point: buddies are almost useless when recreational freediving and then talks about a pretty extreme case, no spearfishing, where apart from all other difficulties, he had an heavy samba or blackout on he way back. Not much to do with your spearfishing rant
Anyhow, I'm outta here, remember:

Never ever post alone

 

[Kars]

Because Eric was trying to prove his point: buddies are almost useless when recreational freediving and then talks about a pretty extreme case, no spearfishing, where apart from all other difficulties, he had an heavy samba or blackout on he way back. Not much to do with your spearfishing rant
Anyhow, I'm outta here, remember:

Never ever post alone

LOL!

Thomas I think it's better to view the whole discussion as an exercise and search for improvement of safety. I don't think it's a game called "who is right".

Though I find Andreas work difficult to comprehend, him purposefully employing a misty choice of wording, he's creating a nice thought challenge for us all.

I must admit that I would prefer a more clear and unequivocal wording, which would make the whole thread more easily to read, and the discussion cleaner and to the point. Now we first have to figure out what the real questions is.

 

[ThomasB]

LOL!

Thomas I think it's better to view the whole discussion as an exercise and search for improvement of safety. I don't think it's a game called "who is right".

Though I find Andreas work difficult to comprehend, him purposefully employing a misty choice of wording, he's creating a nice thought challenge for us all.

I must admit that I would prefer a more clear and unequivocal wording, which would make the whole thread more easily to read, and the discussion cleaner and to the point. Now we first have to figure out what the real questions is.

I agree Kars, I was messing around with the last sentence. Here's my thoughts.
Never took the don't freedive alone as a dogma, it has always been a concise and good advise based on what I've learned about safety in freediving. It is something my mom would say to me when I go mtb on my own: do I come back safe? Most of the time.Do I go out alone not "feeling"myself ? Nope. Do I stop looking for the safest path or training on my bike? Nope. It is simply the safest option when something else fails. If I end up crashing in a slope and my mobile brokes and I can't get back on my own or simply I end up unconscious well then my mom advise would have made so much sense. So what do I do at the end? If I'm alone i try to keep it on the very safe side and I might still be wrong and I could only blame myself in that case. Now if you translate this into freediving you will see how much more difficult is to apply the same safety precautions due to the very nature of the sport: you are in an isolated environment, mostly down there and usually away from shore and "people".you are sometimes "against" environment and physical pressure: waves current pressure way more than on an mtb. Last we might know almost everything about our body and mental reaction while on w bike where freediving has still plenty obscure facts to be found and explained. This all put you at an higher risk than most of the traditional sports out there and we all should be aware of that. Does it means seb Murat should stop diving alone? Or Eric? Nope either. But if there is a simple sentence that works of as a very effective remainder on the final safer way to dive (swim, run, x,y,z) that is "possibly don't dive alone". After all the talking it can still save you some sorrow.

Ps: his wording is a bit obscure maybe but the meaning behind it what I don't get. Basically he blame that sentence as the culprit for not investigating more on how to safely freedive. As far as my experience here goes all the people who actively suggest the "sentence" are also actively trying to figure out the safety aspect of this sport.

 

[Kars]

I think you have sound observations Thomas.

To me it's clear that this discussion is more of an philosophical exercise about the way we educate each other.

I think the model of today, people embarking on a freediver course are usually served a lot of rules, of which many are only superficially explained. Some deeper thinking is considered part of high level courses. Perhaps it's wise to introduce and encourage more logical thinking in the beginning?
Asking questions instead of drilling in rules. The advantage will be that divers have a much better trained mind that is able to deal with new unexpected situations much better. Reading about accidents I think the word unexpected is very common.

Off cause there is a lot of information to learn, and the course time is limited by the vacation and the price of hiring the instructor.
I would be pleased to work with Andreas to help to design his freediving courses.

 

[Simos]

Kars I'd love to see such a course and I am sure others would too - especially beginner courses.

I think it's very easy to shoot down existing courses and 'never freedive alone' and at some philosophical level there might be a point, but try squeezing in a couple of slides for people that have not dived before some advice on how it's best to stay safe and tell me honestly whether you would start trying to tell them about lactic acid clearing or whether you'd tell them to dive with a buddy first.

Education of any kind (including freediving safety) is an ongoing exercise and always starts with the basics and as the student advances, moves on to more advanced and subtle subjects and explanations. You won't teach a kid in primary school the theory of relativity but if you are working towards your Physics degree, you are expected to know it.

I haven't done any advanced freediving courses (eg instructor) so I don't know what's there - for sure, if there is just very thin, dogmatic information about safety the courses should be improved.

The basic AIDA courses that I both attended and helped in teaching (as an asssistant not instructor) could be improved a bit but overall, I felt they were correctly pitched for the beginner - there so many things to take in and I believe too much complicated information would result in confusion. We are making assumptions but believe me, there are plenty of people out there that don't even know what lactic acid is etc.

I think there is a lot of responsibility with each individual to seek the necessary knowledge and techniques based on the type of freediving they do, the depth etc etc. eg if I was to freedive under ice in zero viz or go on a sled to a depth much deeper than what I've done before, believe me I would put the time to understand what I was letting myself into and wouldn't assume that my AIDA intro course was enough!

Same as freediving alone - if you are doing it, you'd better understand what it really means and do your research. And be prepared to accept the risks and pay the price if you don't get things right.

 

[Simos]

To me this discussion reminds me a bit of the classic " Dont smoke pot, its dangerous" discussion.People will allways do drugs,just as people will allways dive alone,talking about how to relate to it safely is whats important! Ignorance is the big killer.
As a recreational spearfisher who dives alone, solo or in a group most the time,Im personally very interested in learning more about how to cut down on the risk factors.Im recently certified as cmas freediving/snorkling instructor and this was something we discussed alot during the course.I do not belive in banning things,becouse humans are fundamentally rebellious,the best way to get kids to do something is telling them its forbidden.
And Im curious to what is a long surface interval to clear buildup of acid after a strenous dive? twice the diving time? more?

I am a bit perplexed sjurba - you think that nobody should be told not to do something, just because some people will do it anyway?

People will always drive at twice the speed limit, drive while drunk, drive through red lights, inject themselves with heroine do all sorts of stupid things. I've done some myself, like many people. You think that the 'headline' advice and most resources should be spent on advising people how to do these things safely?

If you don't believe in banning things in general, I think we're talking about a different level of conversation. And to be accurate, freediving alone is not even banned - no one will come and arrest you.

If I was teaching a freediving course and had 10 people on a course, believe me I would give them the best advice I could at the best of my knowledge without worrying if 1 person would just go and do the exact opposite. Not giving the advice in the first place in case 'someone' might rebel against it is much worse for the rest of the people that are willing to listen

 

[baiyoke]

Some good posting in this thread.

hi baiyoke, cool you took time. just some comments...
......
.......
.....check my reply to bills post maybe, to get a second view on my starting post.

Your reply to Bill:

questioning practices... the talk or the diving in pairs? i want to question the talk. this talk is much harder to put in a row with your basic freediving practices.

I have now read your reply to Bill: It is now more clear to me, that it is the "talk" that concerns you more than anything. Forum talk, instructor talk, how we talk safety in genral etc. if I understand you correct. That makes thing less confusing. And I agree that there are paradoxes. Because many people do dive alone, and they can't make any use of "n d a" in that practice...

But isn't it a bit like "don't do drugs"... Even though it is also clever to educate young people about how to minimize danger, if they have to try it, you can still say that the BEST advice is don't do it. It's a paradox to educate people anyway, about something illegal and dangerous (drugs), and probably a good thing. But the "don't do drugs" still aply, and is not the cause of drug-related deaths... Same thing with freediving... "n d a" is not a direct cause of unsafety. Ignorance and risk-taking is to blame... But that said, offcourse, like regarding drugs, the solo-diving safety could probably need more attention... without other people judging solo-divers... Because solo-diving is a little bit getting a "drug"-label ("illegal and dangerous"). I must admit that you have succeeded in describing a problem, I didn't see before: Would it fx be tolerated, if there was a subforum on deeperblue called "Solo-diving safety"... or does that go too much against the general "n d a" point of view... Very much like how it would be perceived, if a teacher in school started to teach about safe drug-experimentation... there's definately some... tension there...


Your reply to Bill:

about advice:
"never dive alone" is hardly an "advice". simply because it´s saying what not to do. - it´s much more a ban, a commandment, a paternalistic comment, a slogan repeated mindlessly over ond over again, a saying which is driven by fear of life.

To me it is an advice, even if said like a slogan. It is just a very general advice. Pointing to something. It is not to be taken as a lifesaver in itself. Perhaps that's why it is made a negotioation: "Never dive alone" is saying what to avoid. To find out more about what to do, people have to seek out more knowledge. Perhaps it would even be more unsafe if expressed "Always dive with a buddy" because THEN some people might stop there, and think they are safe... But that's highly speculative, an to me "n d a" is still a good advice...

The question is, what to do about all those who don't always follow it?

Allthough you also asked the question "what about those that DO follow the advice", are we sure they seek out more knowledge. My view is, that I believe most people do seek much more safety info. That is my impression. Perhaps I'm wrong. Same thing about instructors; I believe they seek to give plenty of general safety-knowledge. This is a sport where safety-concern seem to be at the center of the activity. That's my impression.

Funny thing is, when I read your first post, I didn't agree that "n d a" is paternalism and a "command", but after writing my last post, and reading the thread, I kind of agree that it is.. I just don't see it as big a problem as you do. Paternalism and comands/straight forward communication is sometimes called for.

You are right that there are some hidden dangers in having only a "n d a" consensus in a community, when many, many people don't. On the other hand, in a community where many people do something that regarded by many as dangerous, paternalism/commands/slogans and raised fingers are sometimes the most effective thing when trying to reach a hardcore group of people, who have always done things there way....

It's a complicated subject this one...

to be outspoken about this, like you are here, creates funny paradoxes. i am guilty of the same by trying to talk "talk". i feel good parts of the confusion you mentioned has it´s right and important function in such a discussion.

I agree, I run the same risk and paradoxes But to be more clear: You are being quite paternalistic and commanding in your first post (my initial perception), allmost saying "Don't say never dive alone!!, it is unsafe!"... at the same time describing why people shouldn't say it, because it is commanding and paternalism. Approaching general and broadly accepted practices and ways of doing things, is best done more gradually I think... Depending on personal style of course, and if you want to create a "shock-effect"...But yes, you got the discussion you looked for Still this thread could need a bit more... direction as I see it.

Edit: Actually it might be a general and broadly accepted practice to dive alone for some people or groups. So in that way "n d a" is actually perhaps percieved as equally confusing as I read your first post, for some people... You could be right about that. But it then raises the question: Who is the "n d a" aimed for? As a general shout-out to everybody adressing safety and trying to highten safety in freediving, I'm still pro "n d a" slogans. But other actions is desired also, I agree...

 

[trux]

"Do not dive alone" is a very important rule and it needs to be repeated all the time. It does not matter that much whether people always really follow it or not. If nothing else, it is at least a clear message that diving alone is risky, so if they get it, the warning already filled its purpose even if the respective person decides to dive alone anyway. At least they may realize such activity is indeed hazarduous, and may be more careful. Or they may search more information to know why they should not dive alone and how to improve their safety if they do anyway.

Unfortunately there are always people who will opose this "mentoring" or feeling upset by it (just like Esom seems to be). I remember the case of Jason Sharbel, who replied quite irritated when people (including myself) discouraged him from diving alone. He claimed he knew the risks, knew his limits, and that he had no intentions to finish in the statistics (see this thread). Unfortunately, he did exactly that, just a few months later (see this thread). And I am pretty sure that if he had a competent buddy with him, he would still be an active member of DB.

In contrary, I did not see yet a single freediver (who passed through the courses of our club, or whom I met elsewhere), who would start taking more risk when diving with a buddy. It is the exact opposite - when you get the right education, and get to see some sambas and blackouts, you will be much more careful not only about your own safety, but about the friends you dive with as well.

So my answer to the initial question of Esom is very clear - the "nda" rule is very important and needs to be promoted even more than it currently is. But in the same time I agree with the arguments that it is not a self-saving rule, and that a full education about the risks, and about improving the safety must go with it.

 

[esom]

Unfortunately there are always people who will opose this "mentoring" or feeling upset by it (just like Esom seems to be). I remember the case of Jason Sharbel, who replied quite irritated when people (including myself) discouraged him from diving alone. He claimed he knew the risks, knew his limits, and that he had no intentions to finish in the statistics

how on earth can you come up with this example right after pretending to know what leads to what regarding human communication? i´m just speachless, i thought i was already, when you were posting about the "right freediving" but this one ....

 

[trux]

how on earth can you come up with this example right after pretending to know what leads to what regarding human communication? i´m just speachless, i thought i was already, when you were posting about the "right freediving" but this one ....

??? I do not remember writing anything about communication, but even if I did, I see no reason why I could not give an example of where the refusing of the buddy system leads to. Feel free to post a similar specific example where a diver died because he listened to the "nda" warning and respected a strict buddy safety system.

 

[Simos]

"Do not dive alone" is a very important rule and it needs to be repeated all the time. It does not matter that much whether people always really follow it or not. If nothing else, it is at least a clear message that diving alone is risky, so if they get it, the warning already filled its purpose even if the respective person decides to dive alone anyway.

Couldn't agree more Trux - this is exactly the point.

Anyone posting on DB often and for a while will know that there isn't a month that goes by (or even week) that you get someone posting about freediving alone and asking how long is safe, what they should do etc.

They post specific questions and so on, most of which are very basic - I have started writing (very long) answers on countless occasions, trying to write an answer as 'complete' as possible to keep them safe but every single time I deleted the whole thing and just resorted to 'never freedive alone' and trying to help them find a buddy in their area instead, a club and a course.

The reason for doing this is that I realise that there are just too many variables and that I CANNOT possibly (or wouldn't know how to) cover every combination/eventuality - sooner or later something that was not known/predicted will happen. If I was 110% I had the magic, fail-safe formula for diving alone I would gladly post and share it with the world - would definitely help me in my current situation! But anything short of that would not do in my opinion.

So I personally go back to that one basic 'rule', not because I am being paternalistic in any way or don't want to give information, but because I think it's the best way to help them stay safe.

Even if they are not convinced and they decide to go ahead and continue diving alone, I believe some sobering stories and warnings at least will pass the message as Trux said.

EDIT: just to clarify - in my case at least I choose not to give much other information (at least initially) on purpose because I feel that the risk due to the fact that they are diving alone is by far greater than any other 'thing' they are worried about that it's not worth start 'diluting' the main message by giving some other peripheral information than in the grand scheme of things, won't change their risk profile hugely (at least in my eyes, of course I could be wrong!)

 

[baiyoke]

Damn Trux, that is a really scary and sad story... Especially because everything is spelled out clearly from both sides in the thread... That story, and that thread, is an extremely acurate description of the urge and craving for frediving, the dilemma when being alone, the dangers both mentally and physically, and the possible terrible outcome...

I'm not sure why Esom disaprove it, but one possibility is, that it makes this debate very difficult, because a story like that immediately overwhelms peoples feelings, and makes a more refined debate difficult...

Very scary stuff indeed.

However, it also gives the opportunity i think to ask: If this was a case where communicating "never dive alone" didn't work, what would have worked??? (if anything -> the man in the story is clearly someone who enjoyed risk-taking and the kick it gave him... He had a motorcycle accident, when recovering is doing solo statics in depths, asking about hypothermia on deeperblue... stating it was his "drug" and that he is ADD... He might very likely be someone who was difficult to "reach" and not the average joe...).

 

[trux]

However, it also gives the opportunity i think to ask: If this was a case where communicating "never dive alone" didn't work, what would have worked???

Perhaps if I could have given him a similarly emotionally strong example in that time, perhaps he would have been a bit more careful. Taking a course where he would get the know-how, could perhpas have made his diving safer and prevent the accident, but I guess the command "take a course" belongs to the same basket as the "never dive alone" to some people and will be called a paternalism.

 

[growingupninja]

However, it also gives the opportunity i think to ask: If this was a case where communicating "never dive alone" didn't work, what would have worked??? (if anything -> the man in the story is clearly someone who enjoyed risk-taking and the kick it gave him... He had a motorcycle accident, when recovering is doing solo statics in depths, asking about hypothermia on deeperblue... stating it was his "drug" and that he is ADD... He might very likely be someone who was difficult to "reach" and not the average joe...).

Sobering story and like all those threads heartbreaking. Safety aside, does everyone here realize that sometimes people dive and swim SPECIFICALLY TO BE ALONE?

 

[Andrew the fish]

Gentlemen,

it is painful reading page after page of useless flood. Since when this topic became "philosophical"? to me this is very real stuff. I dive alone often, even when I am with somebody it isn't any better. I am with Eric on this one. Can we come closer to some kind of conservative guidelines on how to never blackout, on how to reduce danger of BO when it happens and such other vital points.

And Im curious to what is a long surface interval to clear buildup of acid after a strenous dive? twice the diving time? more?

this was very real question and I haven't seen anybody answering

 

[Very]

??? I do not remember writing anything about communication, but even if I did, I see no reason why I could not give an example of where the refusing of the buddy system leads to.

Who refuses the buddy system? Nobody in this thread refuses the body system. I understood, that Esom just questions how "free diving safety" is communicated and kind of tought in the community.
Seemingly some people still think you can PUT something (for example "never dive alone") into a person. I don't believe that!
What do i believe?
hmmm...for now i believe in a communication about safety without dogma or fear.

Perhaps if I could have given him a similarly emotionally strong example in that time, perhaps he would have been a bit more careful.

I don't think, that it is a good idea to play with fears or use fears to reach a goal. You never know, if you hit the goal with it or you fail the goal because of it.