is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[efattah]

In most cases the buddy system CREATES the blackout; a blackout which would not have occurred if the buddy was not there. Today's teaching in most classes this:
"Never dive alone"
"As long as you have a buddy, you can push to your limit and don't worry, your buddy will take care of you if things go bad, everything will be fine"

This philosophy encourages people to push near or beyond their limit, creating blackouts which would not have occurred otherwise.

Ask yourself, how many blackouts have you had with a buddy? How many blackouts have you had without a buddy? You then quickly realize that the buddy created the blackout.

Similarly with my earlier post, if you have acid buildup after a hard recreational dive, you can take all the complicated precautions I mentioned to avoid having a problem on the next dive. Or, you can use the buddy system and immediately dive again with an insanely short surface interval, knowing that 'my buddy will take care of me if things go bad.' Except that your buddy might not find you, you might sink after the BO, or your buddy might not be able to revive you, or countless other factors.

In my case, even in a competition, I dive with the same precautions as I do when diving alone. The results speak for themselves: 12 years of competitions, and I have no blackouts and no sambas. Once I had a packing blackout but that isn't dangerous since you always wake up after.

Twice in my life I had a massive samba while recreational diving. Both times I had 'buddies' but the buddies did not see me the moment I surfaced, only a short time later. In both cases the depth/time was not aggressive, but I was screwed up from an earlier aggressive dive. So, from such experiences I developed the techniques I mentioned earlier, to prevent the same problem from happening again.

 

[efattah]

Eric, honestly, I am thinking, if you ever wrote a book - I would buy.

I have written an e-book on freediving, it is around 80 pages long, but it only covers a very narrow topic of training techniques (a zillion other things are not covered).

 

[Simos]

I see the points made but still I think different things are needlessly confused. Who in the right state of mind ever said that 'never freedive alone' is in itself sufficient for safe dives and the only safety precaution people should take?

It's a bit like saying 'always wear a safety belt' means you can drive around drunk and then if an accident happens, blame the belt slogan! OR you can also advice to 'never drink and drive'.

It's true that sometimes having a buddy creates the BO, especially in pool, because the diver wants to test their limits - I'd personally much rather not see BOs but I can't say that someone that places 3 buddies/safety/doctors in place to do a max attempt is not safety conscious, the opposite.

If you think that diving alone CAN be safe, let's do a mental experiment and imagine for a moment that buddy training/diving was not allowed since the beginning of the sport. How many people would have died you think? (more or less) Where would our knowledge of freediving be? What about records?

My guess is that we wouldn't know anything about BOs (there would be A LOT less BOs and everyone who had one would be dead), performances would be a lot worse than they are now and death rates would be much higher.

 

[Simos]

By the way, at least my personal story: a few years ago, I didn't know what freediving was. But I enjoyed doing underwater laps (alone) and was using a technique I was shown as a kid (hyperventilation) to go further.

Then I started googling for tricks/techniques to hold my breath for longer and luckily, all the 'never dive alone' warnings started coming up and I decided to stop doing what I was doing, take a course and join a club.

I'll leave it up to you to decide whether 'never dive alone' helped me dive more safely or not.

 

[esom]

Who in the right state of mind ever said that 'never freedive alone' is in itself sufficient for safe dives and the only safety precaution people should take?

"diving alone vs. diving with a buddy makes the big difference". this and analogous is stated by you and some others over and over and over again. you too see a connection to your own post?

 

[trux]

In most cases the buddy system CREATES the blackout; a blackout which would not have occurred if the buddy was not there. Today's teaching in most classes this:
"Never dive alone"
"As long as you have a buddy, you can push to your limit and don't worry, your buddy will take care of you if things go bad, everything will be fine"

This philosophy encourages people to push near or beyond their limit, creating blackouts which would not have occurred otherwise.

Sorry, Eric, but I cannot agree. Promoting safe diving and not diving alone must go together. I spoke about the safety guidelines and multiple redundand safety levels in our club earlier in this thread. There are similar guidlines in other French clubs as well. There are 60 freedivers in our club alone, 8 training hours a week, and since 10 years we did not have a single blackout during trainings. The situation is similar in most other French clubs (and as far as I know in Italy too). Sambas during training are viewed very negatively, blackouts are not accepted. In consequence, sambas and blackouts are also much less common at competitions in France than globally. Still, these limitations do not prevent the French from belonging to the world elite.

Ask yourself, how many blackouts have you had with a buddy? How many blackouts have you had without a buddy? You then quickly realize that the buddy created the blackout.

Of course, that's simple - anyone who had a blackout while diving alone is very likely dead, so they will not answer, and they are unabe to do it again. In contrary those who blacked out with a buddy are still here and can indeed answer.

Twice in my life I had a massive samba while recreational diving. Both times I had 'buddies' but the buddies did not see me the moment I surfaced, only a short time later.

This is just another example of diving alone in a group. It is necessary to understand that having a buddy near has no value at all if the buddy does not watch you closely during and after the dive.

 

[esom]

note: simos´ above post contains the full quote of a deleted post of mine - thought it is not helping the discussion...

 

[Simos]

note: simos´ above post contains the full quote of a deleted post of mine - thought it is not helping the discussion...

I deleted my comment too if you don't want to have your comment there esom - didn't realise you deleted it.

I have to say that the situation is the same as Trux's in the UK too (at least what I have seen); sambas and BO in clubs are viewed negatively and are VERY rare (again I can speak only for the sessions I have been too).

Also the very few incidences I have seen were also not during some max attempt as you'd imagine so don't think the people involved had set out to do some risky dive because they had buddies.

As Trux pointed out, you really cannot compare the number of BOs people had alone; they are for sure less common than BOs with buddies and sadly the people involved cannot participate in any discussions.

 

[esom]

Sorry, Eric, but I cannot agree

"buddies are producing BOs and sambas" is just as correct as "diving alone produces fatal accidents". it´s a way to understand our diving that can be deduced from what "is".
the thing is, second is dominating, although being on one logical level with the first. eric discribed some problems that occur due to this imbalance, as i did too.

edit: i consider "deduction" to be more active than the word suggest, should have said it differently.

 

[Simos]

"buddies are producing BOs and sambas" is just as correct as "diving alone produces fatal accidents". it´s a way to understand our diving that can be deduced from what "is".
the thing is, second is dominating, although being on one logical level with the first. eric discribed some problems that occur due to this imbalance, as i did too.

This is by definition though esom - there are no BOs if you diving alone. So a way you could see it is that pushing your limits and not using the right techniques causes:

BOs/sambas (if diving with a buddy and they can save you)

OR

Fatalities (if diving alone or buddy cannot save you)

Of course the second dominates the first - while not desirable, a BO/samba that has a happy ending could be a valuable lesson whereas there is nothing happy or positive about fatalities. So I think trying to address fatalities first and foremost makes sense, even at the expense sometimes of having more 'safe' BOs

 

[esom]

yes simos, my post became a little short.

i tried to say, and this was a reply to trux´post, that the one is not more correct than the other.
what i mean is that there are many causes for accidents, all on one logical level and to value them strictly even though they are just as correct as any of each of them causes problems.

 

[ThomasB]

In most cases the buddy system CREATES the blackout; a blackout which would not have occurred if the buddy was not there. Today's teaching in most classes this:
"Never dive alone"
"As long as you have a buddy, you can push to your limit and don't worry, your buddy will take care of you if things go bad, everything will be fine"

This philosophy encourages people to push near or beyond their limit, creating blackouts which would not have occurred otherwise.

Never heard such a thing at any AA course.

Ask yourself, how many blackouts have you had with a buddy? How many blackouts have you had without a buddy? You then quickly realize that the buddy created the blackout.

None, none. But I'm no competitive so it might not apply...

Similarly with my earlier post, if you have acid buildup after a hard recreational dive, you can take all the complicated precautions I mentioned to avoid having a problem on the next dive. Or, you can use the buddy system and immediately dive again with an insanely short surface interval, knowing that 'my buddy will take care of me if things go bad.' Except that your buddy might not find you, you might sink after the BO, or your buddy might not be able to revive you, or countless other factors.

Funny how easily you forgot the smartest and obvious third option:

" you can take all the complicated precautions I mentioned to avoid having a problem on the next dive. _AND_ you can use the buddy system so if still something happens you have someone with you"

This is what most training teaches by the way .

In my case, even in a competition, I dive with the same precautions as I do when diving alone. The results speak for themselves: 12 years of competitions, and I have no blackouts and no sambas. Once I had a packing blackout but that isn't dangerous since you always wake up after.


Twice in my life I had a massive samba while recreational diving. Both times I had 'buddies' but the buddies did not see me the moment I surfaced, only a short time later. In both cases the depth/time was not aggressive, but I was screwed up from an earlier aggressive dive. So, from such experiences I developed the techniques I mentioned earlier, to prevent the same problem from happening again.

Althought I have amazing respect and admiration for your efforts in freediving I must admit that sometimes it seems you take for granted things that apply to you and believe everyone should follow. It was certainly true for some of the brilliant stuff you came out but I think sometimes you're stretching ita bit to far, especially when regarding safety.

 

[efattah]

" you can take all the complicated precautions I mentioned to avoid having a problem on the next dive. _AND_ you can use the buddy system so if still something happens you have someone with you"
This is what most training teaches by the way .

If you have heard of ANY freediving course which teaches any method to recover from an aggressive dive (such as the precautions I mentioned) then I would love to hear about it.

Concerning solo blackouts, people in this thread assume that anyone who had a solo blackout would not be here to discuss it. Incorrect. In my case I was very lucky, the two huge sambas I had while recreationally diving, in both cases I lost consciousness just before surfacing, woke up while shaking at the surface. My friend Colin had a huge solo blackout while spearfishing in a group (fully unconscious on his back), no one saw him, and he eventually woke up in a strange half state of consciousness unable to move most of his body, but he eventually made it back to the boat (miracle). These are terrible accidents and anyone who survives a solo hypoxic event is extremely lucky. In my case, Trux blames my freediving partners for not watching me the whole dive-- EXCEPT that it is impossible since the visibility is around 1.5m! In one case my friends *were* watching for me, but I surfaced around 80m away and there were very big waves and poor visibility, so it took them perhaps 20-30 seconds to see me; by that time I had already recovered from the samba/BO, but if I had ended up face down it would have been hard for them to find me in the big waves and bad vis anyway. My point is that when diving for fun in my area, the buddies really are quite useless. In terms of precautions to take to avoid problems, the only things I have *ever* heard of in a course are 1) don't hyperventilate, 2) weigh yourself positive in the last 10m, 3) stay hydrated, 4) avoid getting cold, 5) keep your dive short/shallow.

Sadly those are not even close to enough. What needs to happen is that courses need to teach proper precautions to avoid BO's, and then also encourage people to dive with partners, reminding people that the partners in many cases will be able to offer no assistance anyway.

 

[ThomasB]

cut
In my case, Trux blames my freediving partners for not watching me the whole dive-- EXCEPT that it is impossible since the visibility is around 1.5m! In one case my friends *were* watching for me, but I surfaced around 80m away and there were very big waves and poor visibility, so it took them perhaps 20-30 seconds to see me; by that time I had already recovered from the samba/BO, but if I had ended up face down it would have been hard for them to find me in the big waves and bad vis anyway. My point is that when diving for fun in my area, the buddies really are quite useless.

Sorry but I get confused and I'd like to understand. You first talk about method to recover from aggressive diving which I guess are those situation where a buddy ( safety divers actually) would be present, probably competition, right?

Then you move on saying that a buddy is almost useless when recreational diving, but I don't get what recreational diving is one where u go down with no lines ( u ended up 80 meters away from your buddies) bad visibility (1,5 meter)and very big waves and you dive to the point where u had a shallow water blackout or an heavy samba on the way up, is that what you call diving for fun!?!?! And we are talking about safety?!?

 

[baiyoke]

I started freediving last year, and therefore recently got introduced to the dangers of freediving + tons of other information... So this is my perspective from that recent experience:

The thread subject is in a larger perspective interesting: Because it is importent that we sometimes step back, and ask ourselves, if our actions have the wished outcome... So to me, it is an importent question, if the "never dive alone" is actually doing, what it was intended for... And I can see why the answer can get very complicated (not going into that, but the thread so far shows it clearly I think)...

However, the way the question is raised in this thread, is not very productive to me... because to me the statements, questions and the very subjective experience of "never freedive alone" in the first post kind of derail the more importent question behind it: "How to better communicate safety" or related subjects... And after being derailed from start, all the very, very complex questions regarding more specific details in safety takes over... That's how I just read the thread anyway... Confusing start and thread so far...

I do not agree with the perception of the "never freedive alone" that is described in the first post, so it is very difficult and confusing to try to relate to the questions asked in the same post... Because they relate so much to some subjective statements above them. And the reason why it is confusing to me, is that is centers around a very, very subjective perception: Especially an emphasis on the exact words (is it paternalism, is it a command, etc.).

I do however think that you Esom has a real concern of some kind regarding safety, and that this is important to you. I really think that, if presented differently, the questions asked might be fruitfull for safety development in general...

My subjective perception of the "never freedive alone" is that is sometimes used as an ambassador, promoting safety. Sometimes, as a slogan, it promotes the question for beginners/unknowledgable people : Why not? (freedive alone). It is a punchline with a purpose: There is sooooo much to know about safety, and yet people still hyperventilate fx, so it sums up many things in three short words. It could be other three words. And i think this thread puts way too much emphasis on those exact three words. The interesting part in communication, is communication, not the actual words.

I think the reason the "never dive alone" is perhaps regarded as a problematic safety-statement by you Esom, is perhaps pulling in the exact same strings, that is the motivation behind the statement, and the many people who back it up: It is percieved as dangerous and foolish to freedive alone. It sounds like you don't like someone to tell you it is foolish. For me, I don't mind, because for me it serves a purpose... I too violate some safety-rules, but I still prefer people too call it foolish, because it is important (for me) to communicate the dangers... And the buddy-thing is a HUGE step up regarding safety, if properly done: It truly is a life-saving factor (if done properly). Especially for beginners... So for me, it is an advice, shaped like a finger pointing a you, telling you it is foolish not to follow. That is ok for me, because it is a way to communicate something important. I look behind the words and the form: I see a very imoprtant purpose.

One reason why it is ok for me, is that I now know, that many, many people are surprisingly ignorant when starting to freedive, very often alone (no one to get advice from), AND FOR MANY PEOPLE IT IS A PRACTICAL PROBLEM NOT HAVING A BUDDY, so it is easy, from the craving to get in the water, to just say "hey, if I don't do it alone, I can't dive"... So that's why I think the strongly stated "never dive alone" is okay... Because there is a strong urge and/or ignorance in the other end... Whether or not people decide to dive alone is for themselves to decide... But communicating in a way, that some might percive as a command or as paternalism, that for me is usefull in this matter... It's not about wether or not you are allowed to not follow the "rule" as an individual.... it is about communicating something of great importance...

That is at least my perception on the subject, but I can easily see that other people can perceive it differently.

I think that if you want to change something into the better, a more open approach to questioning the possible negative "side effects" of the "never dive alone"-emphasis, would be more productive. But it's deffinately an important subject nonetheless...

 

[Kars]

I think Andreas (Esom) is alluding to the quality of the safety teaching method.

Many courses/instructors rely on drilling slogans into minds.

The danger of this is rather obvious, the slogan is simply not followed up because the person fails to see the logic and need to follow drilled in rule.

Instead of teaching people slogans, teachers should employ a more Socratic method of teaching, teaching by asking people good / the right questions.

To answer the question of examples of people who have died because of the use of slogans. I suspect it's a pretty high number. Actually only the people of the "do good follow all the rules all the time" quality may actually need those 'clear' slogans/rules. Most people are used to cheating rules. They'll cheat for about 10-15% gain. So these people will tell themselves and others for instance: "it's ok to do 1 dive without close observation".

For safety motivation and knowledge are the most important things.
- Slogans and rules are giving neither.


Andreas, did I get through to the core of what it is you wanted to communicate?


ps. Eric I really like your open and very educational posts.

 

[Erik Skoda]

I agree on the point though that people should be taught to assume that they are diving alone - the sad reality is that in some conditions (eg bad vis) you are almost diving alone for much of the dive, especially if there are no ropes.

Where I'm from, freediving solo is a nono. However, when freediving recreationally in Dutch lakes wearing black suits over an equally black lakebed in murky water can make it hard for the buddy to track a freediver from the surface.

After hearing about spearfisherman around Nice wearing reflective strips on their fins I tried them as well. Buddies tell me it makes me a lot easier to track compared to freedivers without.

Below you will find an image taken in Hemmoor last month. Visibility was about 5 meters.

 

[growingupninja]

Quote:
Originally Posted by efattah
cut
In my case, Trux blames my freediving partners for not watching me the whole dive-- EXCEPT that it is impossible since the visibility is around 1.5m! In one case my friends *were* watching for me, but I surfaced around 80m away and there were very big waves and poor visibility, so it took them perhaps 20-30 seconds to see me; by that time I had already recovered from the samba/BO, but if I had ended up face down it would have been hard for them to find me in the big waves and bad vis anyway. My point is that when diving for fun in my area, the buddies really are quite useless.

Sorry but I get confused and I'd like to understand. You first talk about method to recover from aggressive diving which I guess are those situation where a buddy ( safety divers actually) would be present, probably competition, right?

Then you move on saying that a buddy is almost useless when recreational diving, but I don't get what recreational diving is one where u go down with no lines ( u ended up 80 meters away from your buddies) bad visibility (1,5 meter)and very big waves and you dive to the point where u had a shallow water blackout or an heavy samba on the way up, is that what you call diving for fun!?!?! And we are talking about safety?!?

Some people regularly spearfish in those conditions, and nobody is paying them to do it, so yes, it is 'recreational'. They are in all likelihood not diving as deep as Eric was but they are dealing with a host of other variables, and they consider line diving and competing to samba every bit as weird and unsafe as putting their lives on the line to chase fish that they are tired of eating....

 

[ThomasB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by efattah
cut
In my case, Trux blames my freediving partners for not watching me the whole dive-- EXCEPT that it is impossible since the visibility is around 1.5m! In one case my friends *were* watching for me, but I surfaced around 80m away and there were very big waves and poor visibility, so it took them perhaps 20-30 seconds to see me; by that time I had already recovered from the samba/BO, but if I had ended up face down it would have been hard for them to find me in the big waves and bad vis anyway. My point is that when diving for fun in my area, the buddies really are quite useless.



Some people regularly spearfish in those conditions, and nobody is paying them to do it, so yes, it is 'recreational'. They are in all likelihood not diving as deep as Eric was but they are dealing with a host of other variables, and they consider line diving and competing to samba every bit as weird and unsafe as putting their lives on the line to chase fish that they are tired of eating....

We were not talking spearfishing as far as I remember.

 

[Elduderinio]

In my courses I use affirmation:

"ALWAYS FREEDIVE WITH A QUALIFIED BUDDY".

Even this way of putting it has to be explained (e.g. how solo diving in a group is not the same), and yes, this affirmation is only the safety belt - it takes a comprehensive course to learn to drive the car.