Mifsud announces STA WR attempt

[Mullins]

Though it might be risky, I imagine you could probably use enriched air (not 100% O2) for the depth disciplines and get away with it while deriving a huge benefit. If you breathed 40% nitrox and dived light (lots of work on the descent) you could burn off a lot of it before getting to the bottom and then have an easy ride back up. Trickier to conceal of course.

All the doping methods normally brought up in association with freediving would surely be useful for the depth disciplines too. EPO, blood transfusion, beta blockers etc?

 

[spar8]

This actually don't have anything to do with this new record, but about those talks from the record attempts. Why there is no hemoglobin tests in diving, like is in ski? Very cheap way to test, and everyone knows what is going on, if result is something funny.

 

[gingko]

3. If you look at Stephane’s static performances in competition, they are quite good, but not exceptional and there are some big questions raised at one of these performances.

Last 31 january, tooks place a national competition in Dunkerque in the memory of Loic Leferme. Guillaume Nery, Pierre Frolla and Stéphane Mifsud were invited to celebrate the memory of Loic (There were all good friend with Loic).
Pierre Frolla did his first breath-hold during a competition since Loic's accident : he did a 5'00" STA. Mifsud improvised a 7'39" STA for the public. His performance was more than a minute longer than the best STA time in the competition (6'34", not quite long STA but significantly).


.../...

 

[Will]

Nekton, doping would be just as dangerous as hgher O2 for depth disciplines. Central hypertension is the biggest danger to doped cyclists, and that is at normobaric pressure without peripheral vasoconstriction! Unless the body has altered its haematocrit organically, balancing it with an increase in viscosity agents, then the result is 'gooey' blood that will get so thick at depth you would probably strangle yourself with your own carotid!
I don't think there's anything that isn't on the WADA tested list that could help you for depth without an extremely high risk, possibly even certainty, of killing you in the process. Long may it last.

 

[Jorg]

Mifsud improvised a 7'39" STA for the public.

Wow, 4 minutes added in 4 months of training! That would bring me at 6 minutes. I would be very happy about that! :t

The only thing Stephane now can do to remove the doubt about his performance, is to do it outside his favorite pool; the only place were he can improve his normal public competition performances which are normally between 7:00 and 8:30 minutes. In the pool it just seems possible to add 3-4 minutes to his normal ability.

That's not implying something, that's just some simple analyses which will be taken by skeptics very easily to say that he's a cheater.

 

[gingko]

The only thing Stephane now can do to remove the doubt about his performance, is to do it outside his favorite pool;

Well, I don't think he has something to do to kill the doubt you have... It's like a sheep race : one's telling he has a doubt because of the footage of a video where Mifsud ended his breath-up (really, we can't see anything weird, instead of the sound of his last packing), and then most of the posts in this thread talk about a cheat.

.../...

 

[efattah]

This actually don't have anything to do with this new record, but about those talks from the record attempts. Why there is no hemoglobin tests in diving, like is in ski? Very cheap way to test, and everyone knows what is going on, if result is something funny.

Blood testing wouldn't be useful, as freedivers can have extremely high hemoglobin from natural apnea training (Sebastien Murat 21g/dl 63% Hct, for example). I know many freedivers who have Hct>50% from regular training.

 

[TimoP]

Because so many say here, what their belive or not, I have one question about STA results and training.
Here is the top of men's STA results of the latest Individual AIDA World Championchips 2007:

Maribor, 4th - 7th STATICS results - MEN - A Finals
Rank First name Last name Nat. Ann. Real. Pen. Points Remarks
01 Nicolas Guerry CH 6'46'' 7'34'' 90,8 |NR|

This World Champion's result 7:34 is over 4 minutes less than the new WR.
Of course you can claim - and belive to it - that nobody in the whole World hadn't trained enough or right for.....World Championchips !

But in the other words the new WR is 53 % better than the World Champion's winning result.
Can you belive that?
I can, but it's a little hard.
Although in almost any other sport it would be absolutely impossible.
The only reason why I can somehow believe to that WR, is because it was done by a hard trained talented freediver, not by a magician.

But that's not the point for me in this case. The point are that kind of last inhales shown in the video in his "own" pool and having red lips after 11:35 min apnea. It's really not better, if the only other of his 10+ STA results has done it this same "own" pool having last inhales just in the same place near that hole (as said here earlier). If you can do 6:30-8 min STA with air with 21% oxygen and having blue lips, you can do with O2 enriched air (40% O2) - by calculations and practise experiments - 12 min STA. And have still red lips. You don't need a mask to get 40 % O2 to your lungs, just somewhere near a little tube pushing 100 % O2 oxygen to direction to you face. A tube hasn't be near at all, if there is e.g. a box with hole where O2 can be leaded and it comes out with a little pressure from that hole. You don't needed to be an engineer to be capable techically to do that, maybe even some kids could do it. BTW pure O2 can easily cause a explosion, and that's one thing to be very concerned about.

And as said many times, Mifsud is a great freediver and could maybe achieve WR in STA, but there all too much coincidents that I can belive 100 % that it was 100 % fair attemp for those others to trying achieve AIDA WR in STA. But it could had been all ok WR anyway. In future there must put more efforts, that this kind of doubts shoudn't arraise so easily.

And you must remember magiciants - their could do 15-30 min STA WR in their own place in front of AIDA judges with 2009 AIDA rules -with no major diffuculties - by using 100% O2 or O2 enriched air. It is the most used trick when a magician wants to show, he/she can do over 10 min breath holding under water. I hope that in future AIDA WR holders are talented freedivers, not magiciant. And Mifsud is a talented freediver, if I haven't said it. And because of that, this case is very difficult for many freedivers. You want to hope, it was a real clean WR, but there are doubts.

 

[nekton]

Nekton, doping would be just as dangerous as hgher O2 for depth disciplines. Central hypertension is the biggest danger to doped cyclists, and that is at normobaric pressure without peripheral vasoconstriction! Unless the body has altered its haematocrit organically, balancing it with an increase in viscosity agents, then the result is 'gooey' blood that will get so thick at depth you would probably strangle yourself with your own carotid!
I don't think there's anything that isn't on the WADA tested list that could help you for depth without an extremely high risk, possibly even certainty, of killing you in the process. Long may it last.

Hi Will,
Dangerous or not, it does not really change much. Those who are willing to use doping are often willing to take huge risks.

Sure, altering your hematocrit etc probably comes with risks. You say hypertension is a major problem. But say you suffer from nerves at a competition or record attempt. Take a beta blocker, and your blood pressure will decrease, as will your heart rate.

I still believe the possibility of cheating is there with all freediving disciplines, although I am not implying that anyone has used unethical methods.

 

[spar8]

Blood testing wouldn't be useful, as freedivers can have extremely high hemoglobin from natural apnea training (Sebastien Murat 21g/dl 63% Hct, for example). I know many freedivers who have Hct>50% from regular training.

I don't agree this. It's a very good measurement, if we have older results available. We know, that natural Hb don't change very much, no matter, how hard you train. 30% increasement is not possible. If Hb is naturally 150g/l, it's impossible to get it to 190 without doping. (or serious dehydration, which decrease the performance)
So, if old value is 150, and latest result is 190, the new result is propably doped, especially, if last value is not very old, and there is no any illness behind the results. Maybe one in a million can be over 200 naturally, and maybe that is the reason, why ski has been set the limit to 175, still that they have at least same help from high hemoglobin, as in freediving is. And I'm not saying that we should set the limit to 175, like is in ski. No limits, no penalties from high results, but if results are public, the diver knows, that he is going to loose his "respect" from the result, if he is going to get nasty ways to get high Hb. Which increase performance very much.

Is there any doping tests in world record attempts, like is in world championships?

 

[Will]

Nekton, beta blockers are on the WADA list, as is anything that is going to bring BP down enough to counter the effects of doping.

 

[nekton]

Nekton, beta blockers are on the WADA list, as is anything that is going to bring BP down enough to counter the effects of doping.

Yes they are, as is EPO and so on. If they were not on the list of forbidden substances, using them would be allowed and therefore technically not cheating. I am talking about forbidden substances here.

Unfortunately, the fact that the use of a substance is forbidden and tested for, does not mean that no-one is using it.

 

[Arjen]

Though it might be risky, I imagine you could probably use enriched air (not 100% O2) for the depth disciplines and get away with it while deriving a huge benefit. If you breathed 40% nitrox and dived light (lots of work on the descent) you could burn off a lot of it before getting to the bottom and then have an easy ride back up.

I think anyone who might try this has a death wish. The problem would be the spike in ppO2 from the start of your descent, when you have not yet used a lot of the O2. If you are at 50 meters, the ppO2 with 40% would be 2.4. That is the equivalent of air at 104 meters. Now, you would not have 40% anymore but it would still be possible to get quite a bigger spike in the ppO2 for a longer than normal time as is now seen in depth disciplines. For some yet unknown reason, people are much more susceptible for O2 toxicity while immersed than in a dry pressure chamber. Accidents with O2 toxicity have happened with scuba divers on a ppO2 of less than 2.0. As far as understood today, the safe limits of ppO2 are 1.4 for longer exposures, 1.6 for decompression and in case of emergency at the deep end of the dive, but only for a small amount of time. It is also thought that heavy workloads contribute to the problem of O2 toxicity. Like swimming up from a great depth. And because of the extra O2, you could reach far greater depths with a higher ppO2 than when only using air, extending the problem.

I think it would be asking for a shit load of trouble if people would start experimenting with higher levels of O2 in depth disciplines, because we have absolutely no clue at what would be a safe amount of extra O2 under which circumstances. Circumstances which vary on a day to day basis because of slight physical changes anyway. (Tiredness, hydration, nutrition to name just a few) I think it is a recipe for disaster with possible blackouts at depths of way over 40 meters.

 

[OceanMan]

Throughout this thread it has been said that Mifsud got out of the water with pink lips just like if he could hold his breath for 2 more minutes.

I totally disagree with this statement.
On this video Stade 2 - France 2
We can see on the contrary that Mifsud is very close to samba when he gets out (~half point of the video).
Look especially at his hand and arm movement.
And he has a hard recovery, way harder than the ones of Tom Sietas.

 

[trux]

Yes, I wrote it multiple times in this thread that he was on the limit of LMC. But who does not want to see it, will continue ignoring it anyway, and base his theories on the contrary.

 

[rxcnc2]

Trux, it is a matter of faith at this point, and of course people who have faith don't need to have or give proofs and don't listen to each other.

Bring on the next interesting topic...

 

[pehtran]

Bring on the next interesting topic...

I think this debate is really vital and useful for the future of this sport. And it is also very cultivated, I think.
Regarding the performance: each of us makes his own judgement and only a handful of people really knows what happend so it is pointless to persuade the persuaded ones, but for future attempts things obvioulsy should be claryfied. Once againn: I am in favour of the idea that record attempts should only be set at competitions as it is a rule that is easy to apply.

 

[Goran Colak]

Yes, I wrote it multiple times in this thread that he was on the limit of LMC. But who does not want to see it, will continue ignoring it anyway, and base his theories on the contrary.

He was not on a limit of a LMC, he had a LMC no question about it.
But that don't proofs or disproof anything, it's just a LMC. :t

 

[rxcnc2]

Once againn: I am in favour of the idea that record attempts should only be set at competitions as it is a rule that is easy to apply.

I was trying to say that everything has been said, as you confirm. Actually, the suggestion of holding records only during competitions is much older than this topic.

 

[trux]

He was not on a limit of a LMC, he had a LMC no question about it.
But that don't proofs or disproof anything, it's just a LMC. :t

Exactly. If someone has doubts and suspictions, nothing against it, but please base them on facts. On the other hand, when people claim he had to be cheating because he came out fresh, they must be blind. If that's the only argument they have, then it is pretty poor.