New rules discussion

[samdive]

Jason - I agree entirely following my experience coaching and tapping and rescuing my coachee from blackout in Nice!

 

[cebaztian]

It´s very simple.
The old LMC rule was too subjective.
The new Surface protocol (SP) potentially accepts more LMC.
We want to avoid LMC.
Therefore an idea is to "tighten" the SP rule slightly.

One idea is to practice "silent coaching" the 20 seconds after surfacing.
Many of us belive that it is not only more "sportly" to deal with your SP tasks yourself but that it is also much more demanding (mentally) for an athlete to keep track of the tasks him or herself.
The athlete will have to get up a few seconds earlier in order to be clear in the head and deal with the tasks.
(We just have to tell the audience that it is not allowed to shout instructions).

Other intresting clarifications could be:

1) Judges decides if an athlete is to be grabbed!
He does so with two verbal commands (depending on priority); READY and then GRAB!
Safetydiver may act only if airways hit the surface or the athletes head falls onto object (edge of pool, boat e t c). He can hold his hand inbetween head and object/water (especially if JUDGE says READY).

2) In case of OBVIOUS LMC - interpret SP rules VERY hard.

Sebastian
Sweden

 

[subaquaticus]

It´s very simple.
The old LMC rule was too subjective.
The new Surface protocol (SP) potentially accepts more LMC.
We want to avoid LMC.
Therefore an idea is to "tighten" the SP rule slightly.

One idea is to practice "silent coaching" the 20 seconds after surfacing.
Many of us belive that it is not only more "sportly" to deal with your SP tasks yourself but that it is also much more demanding (mentally) for an athlete to keep track of the tasks him or herself.
The athlete will have to get up a few seconds earlier in order to be clear in the head and deal with the tasks.
(We just have to tell the audience that it is not allowed to shout instructions).

Other intresting clarifications could be:

1) Judges decides if an athlete is to be grabbed!
He does so with two verbal commands (depending on priority); READY and then GRAB!
Safetydiver may act only if airways hit the surface or the athletes head falls onto object (edge of pool, boat e t c). He can hold his hand inbetween head and object/water (especially if JUDGE says READY).

2) In case of OBVIOUS LMC - interpret SP rules VERY hard.

Sebastian
Sweden

It requires an exceptionally high IQ to compete in freediving !

I do not understand why new procedures allow for LMC...

By the way what difference with older procedures ?

If the new procedure allows for LMC, why having installed them ???

I trained very hard at my office doing the sign OK and saying "I am OK" NOT AT THE SAME TIME...

It is quite hard in fact ; most natural seems to do and say OK AT THE SAME TIME... it is kind of reflex...

 

[subaquaticus]

In case of OBVIOUS LMC - interpret SP rules VERY hard.

I must be stupid but I do not understand at all this sentence...

If there is an OBVIOUS LMC, isn't the competitor eliminated ?

How can a competitor execute a perfect SP procedure while LMC-ing ???

If an LMC competitor is able nevertheless to execute a perfect SP procedure, then the procedure should be changed, shouldn't it ?

 

[subaquaticus]

One idea is to practice "silent coaching" the 20 seconds after surfacing.

I cannot figure out what "silent coaching" means during these 20 seconds...

What does the "silent coach" do ? Does he (or she) make faces ? Does he/she mime the Surfacing Procedure ? Does he/she execute a ritual dancing ?

Since you insist so much on this silent coach, then this silent coaching should have a direct impact on the athlete's performance...

Wouldn't it be fair in that case to distinguish between the two disciplines :

Static with silent coaching ;

Static without silent coach ?

 

[naiad]

I didn't know it was all so complicated. I wouldn't be able to do the things in the right order after any kind of strenuous activity, whether it involves apnea or not. Hopefully someone will think of something easier.

Lucia

 

[cebaztian]

Subaquaticus

Have you ever compeeted?

You must understand that you are joining a debate that has been going on for soon half a decenium. Many of us has competed under both rules. Some of us has judged.

There are answers to all your questions, but to answer them correctly would take some pages (only Tylerz has that kind of patience

It is quite hard in fact ; most natural seems to do and say OK AT THE SAME TIME... it is kind of reflex...

You are right.

If there is an OBVIOUS LMC, isn't the competitor eliminated ? How can a competitor execute a perfect SP procedure while LMC-ing ???

NO - I got away with a twitching arm while doing the SP (se videoclip)

If an LMC competitor is able nevertheless to execute a perfect SP procedure, then the procedure should be changed, shouldn't it ?

Thats why we are discussing.

Sebastian
Sweden

 

[derelictp]

I agree with Sebastian about tighten the protocol so that an athlete with an LMC have harder to succeed.

We want 2 things:
-No Subjectivity = justice for the athletes
-Limit the degree of Hypoxia for the athlete = Make it impossible for an athlete with severe hypoxia to pass.

I personally would like a protocol that not lets LMC through.

 

[Peter P]

Regarding the new rules:

We must remember that our rules has developed once a year since we had the first set of official rules, and looking back there has been ALOT of changes.
The mainchanges this year is the surface protocol and the allowence of the coach in the water.

The protocol is in my mind PERFECT! Since we now "allow" LMC´s the protocol was made so that the athletes suffering the worst LMC´s simply could not perform the protocol. YES it looks violent when someone is having a LMC, but remember that an LMC is NOT NESSASARILY an indication that you are on the edge! Breathing incorrectly can provoke an LMC.
The BIG LMC´s that someone are claiming to can pass might not be that big afterall... I have seen MANY sambas and the athletes who had the big ones would NEVER be able to make the protocol. So because someone is having an LMC doesn´t mean that it is big...

About the coach: You should choose a coach who knows when it is time to take you out of the water, just like in training! Even in training you put your life into another persons hands, so why is competition so different?

For the countries who are making national rules and not respecting the surface protocol -are you sure that you understand the democratic ways of AIDA? This was the result of a votation as so many times before.

Peter P

 

[immerlustig]

hi subaquaticus,

quote:

It requires an exceptionally high IQ to compete in freediving !


i just did a series of 8 x 28m dives and managed to perform the surface protocol nicely. my buddy was taping it, and we had a review of it. i can assure you, that my iq is not that of a rocket scientist, so my suggestion would be to just practise it.

a very similar topic is the recovery that (most) freedivers are conditioning themselves to. you surface-don't move-breathe 5times (or whatever)-give an ok signal. or something like that.
by doing the same recovery procedure after every dive (limiting any unnecessary physical activity, therefore avoiding the risk of a samba or bo after surfacing) you condition yourself in such a way that you will also do the same thing when you are borderline hypoxic.

also, this procedure was introduced after a democratic decision, so it can't be all bad.

warmest regards,

roland

 

[francois]

Regarding the new rules:


The protocol is in my mind PERFECT! Since we now "allow" LMC´s the protocol was made so that the athletes suffering the worst LMC´s simply could not perform the protocol. YES it looks violent when someone is having a LMC, but remember that an LMC is NOT NESSASARILY an indication that you are on the edge! Breathing incorrectly can provoke an LMC.
The BIG LMC´s that someone are claiming to can pass might not be that big afterall... I have seen MANY sambas and the athletes who had the big ones would NEVER be able to make the protocol. So because someone is having an LMC doesn´t mean that it is big...


Peter P

Big samba, small samba.....small samba looking big, big samba looking small....
Soon, will just look like all the other organisations we used to criticize. How could AIDA go so so far....?


About the surface protocol, as an athlete but mainly as a judge i wanted some changes...i wanted something that would aloud very very very light sambas. A system where to be "ok" the "public would not notice the samba"

But again, this protocol will aloud big sambas not far from black outs....given that athletes will work on their surfacing protocol, they will be more and more automatised, and i am sure will have some very surprising things.


My biggest wish is that the countries who voted for the adoption of this new protocol, did it by curiosity, by strategy and with the firm will to abandon it if we start having too many sambas accepted....because i have to remind that the new protocol was created to turn judgement easy and not to have a festival of sambas. This new protocol no matter how new it is, already shows that it is easy enouth to follow to aloud sambas, small or big and still be accepted.




I hate that !!!



:hmm
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francois gautier - cipa - nice
bzugo80@yahoo.fr

 

[pat fish]

I agree with Francois. Otherwise we should open a thread "how to keep your airways out of the water while shaking with samba"... I know I know- it is beeing discussed already.
I regard the surface protocol as a step in the direction of self-resonsibility, which I find good. It's a clear definition of system-limits, which is good by definition. How the single athlet handles the system-limits is now in his hands - so it's a way of self-resonsibility. If we really have a "festival of sambas" we can still down regulate the system again in a one years time. But 'till then let's see if it really is leading to that sambafestival, which I doubt. I'm glad the community has the guts to check it out. The only way to see if it works..
yours
Pat

 

[derelictp]

I agree with Francois even though I was positive to the new rules,

A good organisation must be flexible and I hope that we can make changes fast if it shows that we have more sambas than with the old rules.

If I remember right the rules changed 2 times last year and I think we should do that this year to if we find it nessesary.

The optimal rule-system is the one that limits the hypoxia most possible but are not subjective. This is in my opinion what we should be gunning for....

 

[Veronika]

I would love to agree with Pat and be able to believe that we as competitors will restrict ourselves in our performances and not have LMCs even though we know we could have them judged valid. Unfortunately I can't. I think that there will be something like an inflation with sambas. Some people will start to do valid LMC-performances in competitions, which means that you will have to do the same to not fall behind. If having an LMC will be standard in a competition IMHO solely depends on the time the new regulations will be valid.
I think the concept of an objective surface protocol as basis for the judgement is perfect, but the surface protocol should be much more difficult than it is now.
However, I think it is a good thing that there now is a discussion. It's a basis we can build on and we can change the rules anytime we consider it necessary.

 

[cebaztian]

The protocol is in my mind PERFECT!

Congratulations Peter P. The more people that are happy with the rules the better.
My country voted for change. I voted for change (as you did). But the vote was won with only 2 votes (if I remember correctly) and more than 1/3 of the countries did not vote.

We should always work towards more unity.

The SP can be approved! So let´s start doing it.

Your discussion "big-samba-small-samba" does not add anything to the debate I think. The SP can be done with LMC (I have done it more than once) and there will be more LMC when the SP-routine is done more and more "uncounsiously". LMC will also move into training.

Let´s just accept that you belong to a group of members that can live with more LMC cases than other groups. You feel that the price is worth paying for adding more justice to the system. I am not sure it is.

About the coach: You should choose a coach who knows when it is time to take you out of the water, just like in training! Even in training you put your life into another persons hands, so why is competition so different?

Its about an ATHLETES PERFORMANCE, not about a coach performance.

For the countries who are making national rules and not respecting the surface protocol - are you sure that you understand the democratic ways of AIDA?

It´s a young organization still in learning. Its a federation. Active members are good. Every country has local traditions and rules to take into account. Sweden wants to join the national diving federation. Too much LMC will prevent us from this.

This was the result of a votation as so many times before.Peter P

Yes, and there will be more votes.

Sebastian
Sweden

 

[blue dolphin]

Dear freedivers

I would like to inform you that the AIDA technical commission
(Bill Stromberg, Kirk Krack, Panos Lianos, Peter Pedersen, claude chapuis
and may be Pim Vermeulen soon) is curently discussing about all information we have received from everywhere about freedivers who are happy
and those who are not happy regarding the new AIDA rules
and mainly the new surface protocol
not so strange when we remember the big "batttle" recently about LMC in AIDA ...
Like Eric recall you, I said one day :
- If the public does not understand why the athlete was disqualified, then the sport is in trouble
What I'have seen in the competition in Nice in May (constant weight) is that the surface protocol is not perfect
My new words will be :
when a rule in sport lead to disqualify an athlete who realized a perfect performance
the rule must be precised
When you see for example a freediver at the end of a perf smiling to the judges
and being disqualified because he says OK instead of I'm ok ... do you think the public could understand

I'm not in the camp for or against the surface protocol
some things in the new rules are good
but imperfections exist
I'm in the camp of those who try to find a more intelligent thing to judge the validity of a freediving performance
and I'm sure this story will continue
because freediving competitions exist only since 1996
only 9 years

claude chapuis

 

[tylerz]

Some people are referring to the difficulty of the surfacing protocol. If they are suggesting the difficulty is due to lack of definition and clarity, then I agree that needs to be made more precise as others and myself have mentioned earlier.

However, for the suggestion that it is not intuitive, or that it is not easy, you must understand that it is not supposed to be intuitive or easy. You then must understand the reason the surfacing protocol is not supposed to be intuitive. My point about education is important here. The new surfacing protocol was founded in the idea that one must demonstrate "mental prowess" (mental clarity and functioning). The surfacing protocol should be challenging to some degree so that loss of mental prowess is proven. And that is exactly why there should be silence from the coach once the athelete has surfaced. Prior to surfacing it should not matter.

Here is an example of the kind of real world scenario that promotes the new surfacing protocol:
If a small boat is racing towards you when you surface from a freedive, and moments from running over you, intuition to go right, left, back, or front is not going to help you, but those are almost certainly what your natural response will try to suggest in your body. Diving down momentarily while the boat passes may be performed if you have mental clarity. Not that I am trying to say diving down is always the best thing to do when a boat is roughly travelling in your direction, just under a specific scenario it can be.

My suggestion here is that if you think of the real world necessity for certain actions/reactions, then under that light the move in the direction of the new rules is quite understandable and applicable.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[naiad]

Tyler, I agree that the surfacing protocol must demonstrate mental prowess. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is important that it isn't too easy. However, I still think it isn't fair to have to say I'm ok within 20 seconds of surfacing - it's a matter of being physically rather than mentally unable to do so.

Lucia

 

[tylerz]

Why would a demonstration of physical prowess be any less valid or expected? My same example requires the need to have physical energy to respond. The physical standard is that you need enough physical energy to say "I am OK". Is that standard unreasonable and if so why?

Some ideas we devised for protocols required much more physical energy that that, such as swimming onto a platform and sitting in a water level chair. Is there any reason we are so fixated on setting the standard where the athlete exactly upon surfacing is expected nothing more from. This is selected because we associate breaking the surface as the end of the dive. Which it is and it isn't. Arriving to the surface of any dive is a continued part of the dive because each time you arrive to the surface you do not know the conditions that will greet you but one is required to deal with them. Especially such minimal physical responses I think are a good addition to a successful dive and even add to the purity of a dive when related to real conditions.

So, we may have to adjust our perception that we deserve the right to end the dive without the energy to perform additional functions above the water. It is arbitrary which one we pick from a purity standpoint, but for practical purposes, such as those that drove the new rules, the decision is for the better I think.

 

[samdive]

"how to keep your airways out of the water while shaking with samba"...

well its a lot easier in bi fins than a mono! do you reckon everyone will start changing back?