Omer XXV Speargun + Other Fast tracking guns?

[foxfish]

I have been using a couple of new guns recently, I fitted a new trigger & muzzle to a 1000 28mm barrel, the barrel is made from alloy but has a plastic sleeve with a built in rail. I fitted twin 16mm bands, a 7mm shark fin spear & I am using it in open muzzle format.
I was surprised how much more resistance the extra band causes in the water, the gun has also lost its balance but the 16mms are very easy to load & the power is way up from the guns original single 20mm band.
The other gun is my teak 1000mm with enclosed track & open muzzle. This gun has a single 18mm band & a 7mm spear but the balance is spot on & the wooden gun is so much nicer to fire!
I think the added weight & maybe the derlin track is responsible for this but whatever the reason the reduced recoil & smooth shot easily make up for the added power of twin bands (in this instance) & firing the heavy gun is a joy compared to the lightweight ally gun.
For me, what this concludes is my little mamba 90 (750 band gun size) has more power, less recoil & only a fraction of tracking resistance compared to the other guns I use.
The mamba may well have disadvantages for some people, cost, difficult to load, difficult to master accuracy but no doubt in my mind it is a very fast tracking gun.

 

[Mr. X]

I have been using a couple of new guns recently, I fitted a new trigger & muzzle to a 1000 28mm barrel, the barrel is made from alloy but has a plastic sleeve with a built in rail. I fitted twin 16mm bands, a 7mm shark fin spear & I am using it in open muzzle format.
I was surprised how much more resistance the extra band causes in the water, the gun has also lost its balance but the 16mms are very easy to load & the power is way up from the guns original single 20mm band.
The other gun is my teak 1000mm with enclosed track & open muzzle. This gun has a single 18mm band & a 7mm spear but the balance is spot on & the wooden gun is so much nicer to fire!
I think the added weight & maybe the derlin track is responsible for this but whatever the reason the reduced recoil & smooth shot easily make up for the added power of twin bands (in this instance) & firing the heavy gun is a joy compared to the lightweight ally gun.
For me, what this concludes is my little mamba 90 (750 band gun size) has more power, less recoil & only a fraction of tracking resistance compared to the other guns I use.
The mamba may well have disadvantages for some people, cost, difficult to load, difficult to master accuracy but no doubt in my mind it is a very fast tracking gun.

Hi Foxfish,
Are you sure it's the extra band and not the plastic sleeve that is causing the extra resistance? Can't help thinking the reduced diameter and mass of the XXV are what make it so nimble.

I got to briefly handle a small, old medi-sten pneumatic on holiday this year. It was shorter than my XXV75, not much more than a big pistol but the barrel had quite a large diameter & it was fairly heavy. Didn't get a chance to use it though.

You have a point re. balance. It was the muzzle weight of the RA that I found tiring. I haven't used my RA since replacing the half cork in the muzzle with a full cork last winter - but I suspect it will make quite a difference. BTW I checked the 20mm rubber on the RA at the weekend - it's more than 3" too long! I originally cut it a little long planning to reduce it later after trying it out and getting used to loading the much fatter band. After early bruising & replacing the trigger mech, I forgot all about it. Planning to trim it down (unless I can find a 100cm carbon RA barrel), now that I have a substantial supplementary loading pad, which should reduce the muzzle mass & provide a bit more umph, applied to the spear for a wee bit longer.

 

[azapa]

For me, what this concludes is my little mamba 90 (750 band gun size) has more power, less recoil & only a fraction of tracking resistance compared to the other guns I use.
The mamba may well have disadvantages for some people, cost, difficult to load, difficult to master accuracy but no doubt in my mind it is a very fast tracking gun[/b].

Hey Foxy, I have just switched BACK to the dark side, from my Cayman 90 ("the laser") to a Stealth 85. The switch was hard: long draaaaaaggy trigger, impossible to sight using the spear, hard to load, hard to remove fish etc. It is a very different world and makes it easy to see why people like band guns.

I have to say though the Stealth is incredibly quiet, quieter than a band gun with metal wishbone, and the power is amazing. Now if I could just start hitting stuff again, and if it were a little easier to extract fish (when the slider blasts though for example) I'd be OK. Giving it time though.

How do you find the switch back and forth air >> band?

 

[foxfish]

Mr x the plastic sleeve is 0.5mm thick - re swapping from one gun to another - well it is as you say good points & bad in each case.
It has been discussed many times that if only a manufacture would produce an air gun with a small diameter barrel mounted above the main cylinder!?

 

[Fondueset]

AIRBALETE A revolutionary pneumatic speargun that combines the best
> > traits of power in air guns to the maneuverability and aim
> > advantages of
> band guns.
> >
> > BARREL/PISTON CHAMBER: The barrel of the gun is produced using
> > Hydroforming technology which allowed us to manipulate the shape to
> > achieve the best maneuverability for an air gun. The internal
> > piston barrel diameter is 11mm which consents easier loading at
> > higher pressure compared to most standard 13mm air guns. In
> > addition thinner faster shaft diameters between 6-7mm are employed.
> >
> >
> > HANDLE: An innovative handle design resembles those of modern band
> > guns. As with band guns, the handle alignment positions the hand
> > directly in line with the spear shaft contained in the inner
> > chamber, opposed to below the barrel as with all the current
> > pneumatic speargun models. This realization allows a more natural
> > aim and better absorption of recoil similar to the characteristics
> > of modern band guns. The handle can be easily removed thanks to a
> > generous sized stainless steel locking pin that fixes it to the rest of
the gun.
> > Once removed there is access to the dump valve of the gun which is
> > otherwise sealed dry during regular use. In addition, the handle
> > grip itself can be substituted for an ergonomic grip available in
> > RIGHT or
> LEFTIE versions.
> >
> > MECHANISM: The trigger mechanism is designed to offer a sensitive
> > trigger independent of the amount of air pressure preloaded in the
> > barrel. It therefore remains neutral and unaffected offering
> > unaltered trigger sensitivity regardless of the power. This was the
> > result of a push rod lever design that exponentially reduces the
> > load between the trigger and the trigger mechanism. The tooth used
> > to engage the shaft, known as the trigger sear, is produced with a
> > special stainless steel that has a very high resistance to wear and
> > tear and is treated with a special coating that reduces friction.
> > Another innovation in the field of air-guns is the side pivoting
> > line release that keeps the shooting line tucked to the side of the gun.
> >
> > MUZZLE: The new muzzle integrates a power reducer which can be
> > easily employed while fishing. The side water ports in the front of
> > the gun (larger than standard ports to increase the water escape
> > from the piston
> > chamber) can be shut by simply turning the muzzle cover. By doing
> > this the speed of the shaft is reduced by 15%.
> >
> > PISTON: The piston is furnished with two O-rings produced with a
> > unique material that reduces friction against the piston chamber
> > during
> the stroke.
> > Just thanks to the employment of these O-rings a 15% increase in
> > shaft velocity is achieved as well as easier loading effort.
> >
> > SLIDE RING(Microspeed): The slide-ring is a fundamental particular
> > in the hydrodynamics of the shot along with the penetration
> > properties of the spear-shaft.
> > The new Microspeed metal slide ring is fruit of long studies geared
> > toward reducing hydrodynamic friction as well as maintaining the
> > highest shot precision. Created with a method known as Microfusion
> > or "lost wax technique" in 304 stainless its reduced dimension and
> > two wings are used for slotting the shooting line at a 30 degree entry.
> > This innovative solution avoids the concern of having to keep the
> > correct shooting line angle while fighting a fish because it places
> > the entire load on the slide ring itself rather than the holes of
> > the slide ring. This prevents any stress to the shooting line.
> > Also thanks to the shape of the slide ring, the stop washer as well
> > as the spring typically employed in pneumatic speargun shafts, have
> > been replaced
> reducing the profile consderably.
> >
> > STOCK CONFIGURATION: The gun is equipped stock with a 6.75mm
> > (17/64") diameter spring stainless 17-4ph spear-shaft with a
> > patented flopper system, "ONE" reel with 50 meters (approx. 164' feet)
of line and a pump.

 

[Old Man Dave]

Mr x the plastic sleeve is 0.5mm thick - re swapping from one gun to another - well it is as you say good points & bad in each case.
It has been discussed many times that if only a manufacture would produce an air gun with a small diameter barrel mounted above the main cylinder!?

I agree. This is what's needed.

Dave

 

[Mr. X]

I have this strange feeling that a futuristic airbelete from the Channel Islands is imminent. Nice pic Dave.
Actually the design reminds me of an old British air pistol - probably a Webley. Ah, found some images:

Foxfish, you made SA railgun! Where did you get/how did you make the sleeve. Excellent!


Some translated(!) links on that elusive Omer Airbelete:
Translated version of http://www.apneamagazine.com/articolo.php/2140
Translated version of http://www.spearfishingforum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3343&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Not sure about that wide cuttlefish barrel though (for balance/to reduce recoil?).

 

[hteas]

Mr X
I use a 140 shaft with my RA 110 and a 120 shaft with my RA 90. Both seem as accurate as ever, and the weight (even with aluminum barrel) is shifted further to the rear. I think with a carbon barrel it would be even better. Go for it.
Howard

 

[Mr. X]

I was just re-reading this thread noticed a few points which might be worth re-visiting

...
-Buoyancy-floatability. Two problems: one of the downsides of the very tiny barrel is that the gun doesn't float much. Don't get me wrong: it has a perfect negative buoyance shaft on and a perfect positive shaft off. But being so tiny, its mass is not enough push it up while hunting: it's your wrist who must do all the job. So that, surprisingly, I've had more wrist pain from this lightweight gun that from very heavy ones. A trcik I adopted to solve in part this problem: since I use it with twin screw-in bands, I use the muzzle hole made for the circular band to put in a cork (a cork cap from a bottle of wine). This way it's slightly better. But still if you hunt in waves, the lightweight gun will suffer more than a heavier gun.
-Power. The single band is very good for the bass task, but you CAN'T use double power. Choose whetether using the twin screw-in bands OR the circular. You can't use both because the tiny barrell, tho made in good quality carbon fiber, is not designed for such a heavy load. The trigger may as well feel more rocky and loose some of its stunning smoothness.
Wishbone- When you shoot it tends to shave the rail protruding above the barrel. So you have to fit your own knotted dyneema wishbone.

Re. the first issue - barrel cork/wrist ache issue mentioned . I wonder if this is more to do with using a longer (90cm) gun. I have experienced the same problem, not with the XXV75 but with my RA 90, which now has a cork fitted. A longer gun catches more of the current - perhaps that's all it is?

Re. the use of double bands. While I can't imagine ever fitting double bands to an XXV, the Omer documentation says you can. In fact, it says you can use both bands supplied with the Gold (2x18mm!) - although 2x16mm should be more than enough! (A couple of us have been thinking 1x16mm might be quite enough for the UK & CI).

Re. the surprisingly maligned 100cm model. Can the recoil of the 100cm model really be much more than the 90cm? I haven't heard anyone complain about recoil or accuracy being an issue with the XXV 90. I'm probably going to get a 90 for everyday UK use but, if I were going to spend much time in the Med., I would happily get a 100cm XXV Gold with reel (reels being normal in the Med, the rail providing extra stiffness for the longer barrel & eliminating any droop in the longer spear, which has 5cm less overhang to counter-balance it than normal).

 

[spaghetti]

As for buoyancy/floatability/stability in choppy sea, here's my 2 eurocents, with a disclaimer: I'm a total ignorant in physics, so everything I say is only based on practical observation (impressions that might be wrong).
I agree that a 90cm gun will suffer current more than a 75.
In current, when hunting in strong current, guns with a thicker barrel are a bitch to handle, very hard to hold straight. Guns with a 30mm barrell (Viper and Omer Mb 30 for instance) suffer a lot the pull of the current, they feel floppier despite their bigger mass, maybe right because of their larger shape which makes more contrast to current. You feel the gun being "pushed".
On the other end, the thin XXV/XXV Gold does not suffer current push according to my impressions, but it feels more floppy and instable in waves (which is a different thing than current), maybe because of the lighter weight being torn away by a sudden sollicitation (think of a dead leaf under a sudden blow of wind).
Floatability is another story: floatability is related to mass, and the XXV doesn't have much. The cork trick works cause it gives more mass, and of a very floatable material, to the muzzle area. However the XXV 90 does not have serious floatability issues, if not very slight...

 

[Mr. X]

Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe (Omer XXV vs. Omer Cayman)

Spaghetti, is it true that the Omer XXV is being phased out in favour of the Cayman Carbon? The Omer XXV Gold is still listed on www.omerssub.it but was surprised to see that the carbon version of the Cayman has the same 25mm (XXV) railed carbon barrel.

XXV Gold:

Cayman Carbon:

The Cayman looks like it might have a newer, more advance trigger mech (near constant trigger tension) HOWEVER it looks like a bigger gun, with heavier gun/handle/trigger mech, for heavier fish, with a simple bulk rubber muzzle and bigger reel (is the spear thicker too?).

Anybody tried/handle both & able to offer any comparison.

 

[spaghetti]

The Cayman Carbon has a 28mm tube as far as I know. Anyway everything is possible, given the product policy of Omer in the last years: products are quickly discontinued after two or three years of glory (the Alluminum lasted only 2 years, Excalibur 3000 one year, T20 discontinued, et cetera et cetera). Hurry up to buy your 100!
But the real "successor" of the XXV in the Omer dinasty is more likely to be the HF2: same 25mm section at the edges of the barrell and same muzzle of the XXV. This would be a great pick for you: I'm hearing very positive impressions by HF2 users...

 

[strangelove]

Spaghetti

You do you know what is in the pipe for 2009 (for omer), I am happy with my HF, however I would prefer and HF carbon since it would shot little more quietly.

 

[Mr. X]

The Cayman Carbon has a 28mm tube as far as I know.

Yes, I was surprised as the aluminium version is 28mm but It definitely says 25mm for the carbon:

"CAYMAN CARBON BARREL
Cayman Carbon features a 25mm diameter carbon fibre barrel with a thickness of 1.5mm and an integral carbon fibre shaft guide. The shaft guide is not added to the barrel but is an integral part of it. The special profile also contributes to the greater stiffness of the barrel for maximum shooting accuracy."

Anyway everything is possible, given the product policy of Omer in the last years: products are quickly discontinued after two or three years of glory (the Aluminum lasted only 2 years, Excalibur 3000 one year, T20 discontinued, et cetera et cetera). Hurry up to buy your 100!
But the real "successor" of the XXV in the Omer dynasty is more likely to be the HF2: same 25mm section at the edges of the barrel and same muzzle of the XXV. This would be a great pick for you: I'm hearing very positive impressions by HF2 users...

Interesting. Well Omer are great innovators, I guess that means continual improvement (hopefully!). I was thinking of the 90 (although I thought I might get a 100 in the future when a trip to the med. looked imminent). Re. HF2, I can't see going back to chunky shapes or aluminium after experiencing the joy of 25mm carbon.

Will need to find out more about the Cayman Carbon, esp. price.

...I am happy with my HF, however I would prefer and HF carbon since it would shot little more quietly.

I think the Cayman Carbon is not a cool/whacky HF (hydroformed) barrel - it is just a plain, straight 25mm tube, with a rail. How do you like the Cayman handle? It looks to me like the trigger sear engages with the spear several inches further back than the T10 mech of the Omer XXV -- which means more band stretch & power -- I think Pastor mentioned some Greek companies have been doing this for sometime. Although you get that big sticky out muzzle too (great if you need double bands but otherwise a drag, literally).

 

[spaghetti]

I see. But I lean to think it's a translation error, as italian OMER website says:
FUSTO CAYMAN CARBON
Questo fusto interamente in carbonio di diametro esterno da 28 mm è realizzato con guida asta integrale e nello spessore di 1,5 mm.
This one (tuscan jewel) has a 25mm carbon barrell, but it costs a kidney to "live donors.org":
HUNT - Carbon technology

 

[Mr. X]

I see. But I lean to think it's a translation error, as italian OMER website says:
FUSTO CAYMAN CARBON
Questo fusto interamente in carbonio di diametro esterno da 28 mm è realizzato con guida asta integrale e nello spessore di 1,5 mm.

Interesting. Thanks for that. Perhaps they fobbing the Italians off with those big, fat ol' 28mm barrels that had stuck in a dusty cupboard out back! Or perhaps they need to dump the old XXV barrels on the Brits?! I notice that the Omer Cayman HF2 (unlike the HF) has the XXV muzzle. So, it's almost like the Cayman carbon got the new handle but the old muzzle and the XXV got the old handle but the new muzzle! :hmm(I like the T10 handle well enough though - moving the sear back for the Cayman is inspired though, could make a significant power/range difference, esp. for a little 75).

This one (tuscan jewel) has a 25mm carbon barrell, but it costs a kidney to "live donors.org":
HUNT - Carbon technology

Gasp! It's beautiful. A Lamborgini-like sculpture in carbon. The the sleek side profile reminds me of a couple of Foxfish's custom spearguns. Would sure hate to scratch that up or drop it into some deep dark weed bed.

 

[strangelove]

X

I really like the Cayman handle and trigger system, in my opinion the gun is just about perfect ballistic speaking.

The handle is large and comfortable, the trigger has good sensitivity, the shooting position is great (I can still miss shots - but that is just me !), I don't think the barrel flexes at all, that is probably the reason it shoots so well.

The only thing I would change if they ask me is:

1) the barrel needs to be cover with plastic or something to muffle the shots.
2) the line release needs to be angle back like most of wooden guns (making reloading faster)
3) the it needs a hook under the muzzle also to make reloading faster.

I may put a HH muzzle on my just like ILdvier did, to address the muzzle hook.

But since OMER does not ask for my input, it is not going to happen ! But I think they are reasonable complains.

I also really like the match reels, one of the reason I trying to buy the gun spaghetti is selling.

 

[Mr. X]

Thanks, good to hear a first hand review of the Cayman handle. I really like the idea of having the sear further back -- does it make loading harder (more force/closer to chest)?

...But since OMER does not ask for my input, it is not going to happen ! But I think they are reasonable complains...

Most major corporations spend millions trying to find out what their customers think/want. Helps them avoid wasting money on producing things people don't want and allows them to concentrate on the stuff that matters. It does no harm to tell them (an American moutaineering equipment manufacturer sent me an an excellent $30+ crampon/ice-screw bag for some ideas I gave them some suggestions for improvements/tweaks to their gear). The Italian companies should pay Spaghetti to act as consultant/ambassador to the English-speaking markets.

 

[strangelove]

X

I did not have any trouble loading it, I've installed the bigger but, but later on I've took it off. I also think the gun has plenty of power stock, no reason (for me) to change the band.

Ok it omer add those features on the next model, you know it was me the asked for them rofl

 

[jon penrith]

Hi, I have an Omer xxv gold in 100 cm & am very happy with it.I tend to use it with the circular rubber but have used it with both rubbers(screw in & circular together) I did not find the recoil too bad with both despite the lack of mass you get with a thin carbon barrel.I am not too keen on the screw in rubber system on this gun as they hinge over the muzzle after a shot which I find a pain.The match reel is good.For a 100cm gun it appears to be relatively short due to spear length(my excalibur 100apperas much longer because of this.Problem is, you start putting a longer spear & then the muzzle of the gun drops because of it being "nose heavy".Weights can be used to counter this however.The only negastive thing about this gun is the need to replave the articulated wishbone with dyneema as it marks the rail when fired.This means either filing the notches on the spear so they dont cut the dyneema wishbone(shrink tube on the dyneema slows this process) or having to change the spear to one without notches(having sharkfins).this means that you have to remove the clear plastic bridge on the muzzle. I also have a cayman carbon in 110cm which is a good gun but only comes with a single 18mm band when muzzle can take 2 circular bands.I am replacing my single 18mm with 2 x 16mm circular rubber on the cayman & changing the spear to shark fin tabs.in my opinion the best spears are made by trygon.com also totemsub.it spears are well thought out.
Jon